Rules to ignore, or replace

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

What does he use to determine what color he changes into?

 

An inherent sense of where colors reside in the light spectrum and how to alter his pigmentation to match.

 

Does he sense the color of the objects behind him and project them onto the side facing the observer, leaving himself vulnerable to multiple observers or the objects behind him varying or changing color unheeded by Chameleon Man?

 

He changes the pigmentation in his skin so that it absorbs different frequencies of light than it did before. In other words, his skin is actually a different color. He can do this to any part of his skin, so he wouldn't be vulnerable to multiple observers, but he'd have to get naked if he's trying to hide instead of just being expressive.

 

EDIT: Of course, since the power is Shape Shift, not Invisibility, this is actually a Concealment or Stealth attempt. Chameleon Man probably has Skill Levels with those Skills with his skin-changing as the SFX.

 

How well can CM exactly duplicate the color he was the last time the observer saw him, or is he sometimes bluer than others or occasionally looking a little green today?

 

He has complete control and precision, which is good since it's all he can do.

 

If this is used to emulate other races a casual observer (average PER) might not notice that Cham Man has ebony skin and Caucasian features but the detective (high PER) probably would and should, but how much should we modify the PER Roll by?

 

This sounds more like someone trying to see through an attempt at a Shape Shift aided Disguise rather than trying to see through his Shape Shift per se.

 

One of the driving precepts of HERO is that there is always a defense and it should be cheaper than power you are defending against. Shape Shift is so ill-defined that it is indefensible.

 

Shape Shift isn't an attack, so why does there need to be a defense? What's the defense against Growth or Stretching?

 

EDIT: Or, you could look at it this way: the "defense" against a Shape Shift is all the Sense Groups the Shape Shift doesn't work against.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Sanity check:

 

1) Shapeshift is NOT a Sense-Affecting Power. it is a Body-Affecting Power.

2) Shapeshift is NOT an Attack Power. Therefore, it doesn't need to have a "defense". The "defense" it has is the same as it is for any other non-attack power: Dispel, Drain, Suppress, etc.

3) A change in shape is percievable by at least four different sense groups: Sight, Touch, Hearing (sonar), and Radar.

4) The Touch sense provides information on texture, temperature, moisture, and perhaps other things, none of which are necessarily related to shape.

 

Plasticman changes shape into a mailbox. Daredevil's passive sonar detects him as a mailbox-shaped object. Daredevil's passive sonar might also be able to tell that this mailbox-shaped object is not made of metal, but instead is of some flesh-like material (whatever Plasticman's body is normally made of), since PM doesn't change the texture, temperature, or substance of his flesh when he changes shape.

 

NotPlasticMan is like PM, but he can change textures and other properties of his skin when he changes. When he changes into a mailbox, he feels like painted metal - cold, hard, and fairly rigid. Dardevil's passive sonar can't distinguish NPM's mailbox shape from a real mailbox (at least not as readily).

 

NPM's Shapeshift is more powerful than PM's Shapeshift.

 

Does PM get a Limitation?

Or does NPM pay for some additional, as-yet-unknown adder?

[pinecone]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I disagree I do feel that it is significantly (though not greatly) more limiting than a HA, as you are giving up many combat effects, if it was just the few things that don't fall inbetween combat effects and NCM I would agree with you (This is a refrence to STR rolls, extra leaping, throwing distance and lift)

 

however the lack of combat manuevers to me is a big deal, I am refering to grabs, disarms and other such manuevers

 

Personaly I would drop HA as a power totaly and provide the following lims under characteristics power for str

 

Does not include Str abilities (refering to lift, leaping, throwing and Str rolls) -1/4

 

Does not include diirect Damage -1/2

 

Does not include non direct damage abilities -1/4 (This is the grab/disarm type of stuff)

 

I would also allow range be bought on it...

So basicly you're looking for DC's for STR?...thats an interesting Idea....Hmmm sadly 5 pts ea is too much...so try 4 pointers and see what happens...

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

 

Does PM get a Limitation?

 

 

Yes. I'd peg it as a -1/2, since the Physical Shape changing aspect is clearly more useful than the Texture/Temperature aspect.

 

That gives a 17 point cost for Plastic Man's "Any Shape, Only One Texture" Shape Shifting.

[casualplayer]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

So what have various GMs done to keep the Skrulls out of the silverware? How do you tell the authentic from the Shapeshifted if the disguise is flawless to the breadth and extent of the senses bought able to be duped? What tips you off that it's not Aunt May but actually the Chameleon or Mysterio? We can't all buy Danger Sense 360 Mystical, or at least we shouldn't have to just to keep the amorphous at bay.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Yes. I'd peg it as a -1/2, since the Physical Shape changing aspect is clearly more useful than the Texture/Temperature aspect.

 

That gives a 17 point cost for Plastic Man's "Any Shape, Only One Texture" Shape Shifting.

That's the way I'd do it as well, if I am to resign myself to using the current cost structure of this power.

 

It's Shapeshift to the Touch Group only (5 points), Any Shape (+20 points), and "Can't change tactile characteristics, such as temperature and texture" -1/2.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

So what have various GMs done to keep the Skrulls out of the silverware? How do you tell the authentic from the Shapeshifted if the disguise is flawless to the breadth and extent of the senses bought able to be duped? What tips you off that it's not Aunt May but actually the Chameleon or Mysterio?

 

Roleplaying? Knowledge of the character being impersonated? When Chameleon-as-Aunt May does or says something out of character, that is a clue. When he knows (or doesn't know) things Aunt May couldn't (or should), that can be a big clue.

 

I find it difficult to believe that in the breadth and depth of all comics published, there has never been a shapeshifter found out by not a flaw in his appearance, but in their actions.

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

So basicly you're looking for DC's for STR?...thats an interesting Idea....Hmmm sadly 5 pts ea is too much...so try 4 pointers and see what happens...

 

THAT'S BRILLIANT

 

sarcasim aside, I was talking about removing HA from the game and making it a series of limitations for strength to make it more customizable

 

as forMartial Arts Damage Classes remember 2 important details

1) 0 END

2)Only for MA mauevers

[Lucius]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I'd change the rules of attacks from surprise to do half CON rather than double stun.

 

 

Ur? I've no idea what you're talking about.

 

That was easy - he means treat the surprised character as having half their normal CON. Thus a 20 CON person taken by surprise is stunned if the attack does 10 STUN.

 

THIS is the mysterious thing CTaylor said:

 

I'd change the block rules to be a roll against the DCV the attack hit rather than their OCV. A great attack roll makes it harder to block.

 

To which I say - Huh? Do you mean you have to roll against YOUR OWN DCV to block? What for? And if that's not what you mean, what the heck DO you mean??

 

I don't like macaroni and cheese. Macaroni and cheese is broken.

 

 

Okay, I'll fix macaroni and cheese. Then it won't be broken anymore.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary warns "If it ain't fixed, don't break it."

[Netzilla]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

THIS is the mysterious thing CTaylor said:

 

I'd change the block rules to be a roll against the DCV the attack hit rather than their OCV. A great attack roll makes it harder to block.

 

To which I say - Huh? Do you mean you have to roll against YOUR OWN DCV to block? What for? And if that's not what you mean, what the heck DO you mean??

 

He means that, you calculate what DCV the attack roll could have hit. For example, you have an 8 OCV and roll a 9 to hit. That's enough to hit a DCV of 10. So, if I attempt to block that attack, I have to hit a DCV of 10 or better for the block to succeed.

[pinecone]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

THAT'S BRILLIANT

 

sarcasim aside, I was talking about removing HA from the game and making it a series of limitations for strength to make it more customizable

 

as forMartial Arts Damage Classes remember 2 important details

1) 0 END

2)Only for MA mauevers

 

Sorry...I was just sugesting trying the easy before trying the difficult...you can play test buying DC for str right now...and if it gets wonky you don't have to waste time on a lot of tinkering.....personally I think 4 pts is too low for STR with all it's extra usefullness...but at 5 pts a DC you should just buy STR. +X STR, no figured is -1/2, and seems like it would get close to what I Think you're saying.....and has the same cost structure as HA for more utility....and so is likely underpriced for what you get.....or you can get sarcastic and go your own way...YMMV

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

...you can play test buying DC for str right now... .....personally I think 4 pts is too low for STR with all it's extra usefullness...but at 5 pts a DC you should just buy STR. +X STR' date=' no figured is -1/2, and seems like it would get close to what I Think you're saying.....and has the same cost structure as HA for more utility....and so is likely underpriced for what you get...[/quote']

I don't mean to bring this issue up again (but somebody was going to anyway), but these problems would go away if STR cost 2 points per.

 

It is a rule I have replaced for my games: STR costs 2, HA costs a flat 5/d6, with no "HA" limitation allowed. Thus preserving the 5 points per DC standard.

[casualplayer]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I don't mean to bring this issue up again (but somebody was going to anyway), but these problems would go away if STR cost 2 points per.

 

It is a rule I have replaced for my games: STR costs 2, HA costs a flat 5/d6, with no "HA" limitation allowed. Thus preserving the 5 points per DC standard.

 

Yep, somebody was going to. Way to take one for the team.

[casualplayer]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Roleplaying? Knowledge of the character being impersonated? When Chameleon-as-Aunt May does or says something out of character, that is a clue. When he knows (or doesn't know) things Aunt May couldn't (or should), that can be a big clue.

 

I find it difficult to believe that in the breadth and depth of all comics published, there has never been a shapeshifter found out by not a flaw in his appearance, but in their actions.

 

What is this "roleplaying" of which you speak? Seriously though, this is a good answer. But, outside of the GM or player flubbing it and being caught in the act, you are talking about Skill Interaction (observer's PER Roll or KS vs. shapeshifter's Acting) and Shape Shift doesn't offer any structure to interact with. I think it should, taking a huge cue from the power structure of Images.

 

People seem to be getting feisty about this so, for my sake, I'm done. Maybe I'll shapeshift into something else and continue, but you will never know....

[pinecone]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

I don't mean to bring this issue up again (but somebody was going to anyway), but these problems would go away if STR cost 2 points per.

 

It is a rule I have replaced for my games: STR costs 2, HA costs a flat 5/d6, with no "HA" limitation allowed. Thus preserving the 5 points per DC standard.

 

Well,...yeah changing stuff is one way...it solves old issues...adds new issues....

 

But I don't like the idea of making STR cost 2...I'm just too old fashioned...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Well,...yeah changing stuff is one way...it solves old issues...adds new issues....

 

But I don't like the idea of making STR cost 2...I'm just too old fashioned...

Changing stuff? Isn't that what this thread is about? Check the title.

 

I don't see any new "issues" that would be created by this change. The only thing that might annoy some is that superheroic bricks would have to be rebuilt. But that kind of thing will arise with any change.

[pinecone]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Changing stuff? Isn't that what this thread is about? Check the title.

 

I don't see any new "issues" that would be created by this change. The only thing that might annoy some is that superheroic bricks would have to be rebuilt. But that kind of thing will arise with any change.

 

I was not saying change was bad...unless you don't like change.

 

As for changing STR to 2 per...it's the problems that are not easy to see that concern me.

 

But I for one see no compelling reason to render true high end super STR so expensive, to solve what is to me...not much of a problem. That and my conservative nature, turns me away from that solution....

[casualplayer]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

You could approach STR the other way and remove figured characteristics til it was appropriately priced at 1 pt per. Physically strong people don't heal faster, aren't more resilient and don't leap proportional to their strength. Eliminate or shift those to other chararacteristics for figuring and STR at 1/1 starts to make a wee more sense.

 

I suggest CON be used for figuring PD, EGO for ED, CON & EGO used for REC and maybe even CON+EGO for END. Leap would be a base 2", buy it up if you wanna.

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

You could approach STR the other way and remove figured characteristics til it was appropriately priced at 1 pt per. Physically strong people don't heal faster, aren't more resilient and don't leap proportional to their strength. Eliminate or shift those to other chararacteristics for figuring and STR at 1/1 starts to make a wee more sense.

 

I suggest CON be used for figuring PD, EGO for ED, CON & EGO used for REC and maybe even CON+EGO for END. Leap would be a base 2", buy it up if you wanna.

 

Personally I've always been in favour of getting rid of figured stats entirely. Base PD and ED and SPD at 2, Rec at 4, END and STUN at 20 and everyone buys them up from there. Keep STR at 1 per, drop CON and BODY to 1 per, DEX to 2 per, and keep everything else the same.

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Regarding Daredevil's radar sense

 

It's actualy sonar...

 

It's whatever the writer says it is. Sometimes it's more like radar, sometimes its more like sonar, sometimes it's something else.

 

To which I say - Huh? Do you mean you have to roll against YOUR OWN DCV to block? What for? And if that's not what you mean, what the heck DO you mean??

 

Right, what he said. When someone rolls to hit me, I have to beat what they hit to block them. Here's an example:

 

Orc attacks warrior, warrior aborts to block

Orc rolls to hit, and hits a 9 DCV

Warrior tries to block, to succeed he must now hit a 9 or better DCV.

 

Been using this system for years and it works great.

[JmOz]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

It's always been based on his hearing, this makes it

 

SOund Navigation And Ranging

 

not

 

RAdio Detection And Ranging

[CTaylor]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

The thing is, it's not based on his hearing. I specifically am thinking of an issue in the 200s where his radar sense was jammed because the boat captain turned on their radar and he was overwhelmed, it stopped working. Daredevil then had to rely on his hearing to spot the bad guys.

 

It's what the writers say it is.

[pinecone]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

The thing is, it's not based on his hearing. I specifically am thinking of an issue in the 200s where his radar sense was jammed because the boat captain turned on their radar and he was overwhelmed, it stopped working. Daredevil then had to rely on his hearing to spot the bad guys.

 

It's what the writers say it is.

 

I totally agree with this, for every character in Comics...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Right' date=' what he said. When someone rolls to hit me, I have to beat what [i']they[/i] hit to block them. Here's an example:

 

Orc attacks warrior, warrior aborts to block

Orc rolls to hit, and hits a 9 DCV

Warrior tries to block, to succeed he must now hit a 9 or better DCV.

 

Been using this system for years and it works great.

 

I like this system better than the rules as written. It makes sense that if an opponent has made an excellent shot then I should have to make extra effort to block that effort.

 

It doesn't quite go into making the opponents to hit roll the target difficulty but it probably makes it more important more often.

 

 

Doc

[archermoo]

Re: Rules to ignore, or replace

 

Right' date=' what he said. When someone rolls to hit me, I have to beat what [i']they[/i] hit to block them. Here's an example:

 

Orc attacks warrior, warrior aborts to block

Orc rolls to hit, and hits a 9 DCV

Warrior tries to block, to succeed he must now hit a 9 or better DCV.

 

Been using this system for years and it works great.

 

So instead of basing how easy it is to block someone off of how good they are at attacking (i.e. their OCV), you base it on how well they threw the current shot (their OCV modified by a random roll and my DCV), making it a skill contest instead of a straight roll. Meaning the harder I am to hit, the easier time I have blocking. Sounds potentially interesting.

 

Do you do the same for Missile Deflect?