Sean Waters Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 I was looking at the description for Invisibility, and read that it is a 'partial exception to the general rule about....being perceived by sense groups'. Never even crosssed my mind that Invisibility, when it is running, is still perceiveable by 3 sense groups (unless you have made yourself invisible to so many sense groups that there are not 3 left!) So, if you are invisible to sight, that's cool, but the invisibility will be somewhat limited by the constant buzzing noise you make, the odd smell that emanates from you, and the modulated pulses you are emitting on radio frequencies. In effect you need to buy IPE almost every time you buy invisibility. That's one rule I'll be ignoring. I will cross out the word 'partial' and the end of the sentence. Invisibility is now an exception to the rule about END using powers being perceiveable. Do you agree? Do you have any examples of your own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace Ditto 'shapeshift', while we are at it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I've never used the "endurance using powers are perceivable" rule. Instead, I've always adjudicated the matter based on what makes sense in light of the special effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I'm going to be encouraging my GM to use the old 4th Ed. rules of Instant Change rather than this weird Transform they've got now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Samson Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I have yet to allow it, but my players have asked to me to waive the rule disallowing power frameworks to be linked to a power outside the framework (such as a Growth Powers framework linked to Growth). I also frequently get asked to waive the rule requiring powers in Elemental Controls to cost END. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ockham's Spoon Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I do not let characters buy up the maximum they can achieve with an Aid. If they want a 30 point effect, they have to buy at least 5d6 to get it. Being able to buy up the maximum just lends itself to abuse IMO. I am also pretty forgiving about what I will allow in power frameworks, provided it makes sense and doesn't seem abusive. I guess that really falls under GM approval, so it is not outside the rules, but it might not make it into officially sanctioned material. ___________________________________________________________ So don't smile so wide for that lens The cross-hairs are not your friends *click click* - The Beauty Pill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I've always seen the "rules" as guidelines, so I read "partial exception" and see...."You are invisable, but it's "partial" because you have a "Fringe" (that you can buy off....) and you Can be perceived by nontargeting senses...two things that make you "Semi-perceivable" (and thus "partialally exempted...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I've always seen the "rules" as guidelines' date=' so I read "partial exception" and see...."You are invisable, but it's "partial" because you have a "Fringe" (that you can buy off....) and you Can be perceived by nontargeting senses...two things that make you "Semi-perceivable" (and thus "partialally exempted...)[/quote'] According to the rules, even if you buy off 'fringe' you are still humming and ...well, humming. The rules ARE guidelines but we shouldn;t have to be constantly amending them. they should work 97.876 (yes, I can be that accurate)% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace According to the rules' date=' even if you buy off 'fringe' you are still humming and ...well, humming. [/quote'] For our US cousins I think that I should point out that in the UK, humming can be interpreted as being smelly.... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace Do you agree? Do you have any examples of your own? I agree. Invisible is Invisible. Being less visible shouldn't make you noisy, and being less noisy shouldn't make you more visible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxly Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I was looking at the description for Invisibility, and read that it is a 'partial exception to the general rule about....being perceived by sense groups'. Never even crosssed my mind that Invisibility, when it is running, is still perceiveable by 3 sense groups (unless you have made yourself invisible to so many sense groups that there are not 3 left!) So, if you are invisible to sight, that's cool, but the invisibility will be somewhat limited by the constant buzzing noise you make, the odd smell that emanates from you, and the modulated pulses you are emitting on radio frequencies. Well, personally, I think you are over analyzing Invisibilities "visibility." Sonar or you stubbing you toe and going "Ow" will make you hearable. Radar will reflect of you and you talking on your com-unit can still be "picked-up." And someone or something will know you are there with their heightened sense of smell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace Well, personally, I think you are over analyzing Invisibilities "visibility." Sonar or you stubbing you toe and going "Ow" will make you hearable. Radar will reflect of you and you talking on your com-unit can still be "picked-up." And someone or something will know you are there with their heightened sense of smell. I think it goes beyond that - just as an energy blast has to be visible to three senses, so does invisibility, and I don't think that simply means that it is only noticed if you make a noise, or someone has an enhanced sense any more than EB is not noticed unless you shoot a pile of tin cans and they clatter down. Mind you that would be a sensible enough way to deal with the problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Device Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace Rules to Ignore: As in the thread starter the visibility rules for Invisibility and Shape shift. As a matter of fact, I'm considering redoing the visibility rules overall. Adjustment powers fade five points per application per time period. NIMG. In my game, they fade at five points per adjustment power per time period, like they always did before. Affects Desolid. In my games, if you want something to affect desolidified characters, you buy it with the appropriate special effect. Change Environemnt can't provide bonuses. Yes it can, with GM's (i.e., my) approval. EGO Entangles must take "Can Not Form barriers." Nope. What's wrong with the idea of a barrier that takes willpower rather than brute strength to bypass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace For our US cousins I think that I should point out that in the UK, humming can be interpreted as being smelly.... Doc Thank you for being my cultural interpreter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I think it goes beyond that - just as an energy blast has to be visible to three senses, so does invisibility, and I don't think that simply means that it is only noticed if you make a noise, or someone has an enhanced sense any more than EB is not noticed unless you shoot a pile of tin cans and they clatter down. Mind you that would be a sensible enough way to deal with the problem Sorry I just don't agree...it's "partially exempt" so it does not require 3 senses...it can however be overcome in ways that make you semi perceivable...like rain or paint...etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace Rules to Ignore: As in the thread starter the visibility rules for Invisibility and Shape shift. As a matter of fact, I'm considering redoing the visibility rules overall. Adjustment powers fade five points per application per time period. NIMG. In my game, they fade at five points per adjustment power per time period, like they always did before. Affects Desolid. In my games, if you want something to affect desolidified characters, you buy it with the appropriate special effect. Change Environemnt can't provide bonuses. Yes it can, with GM's (i.e., my) approval. EGO Entangles must take "Can Not Form barriers." Nope. What's wrong with the idea of a barrier that takes willpower rather than brute strength to bypass? * Variable limitation interaction with Foci: F/X is king... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTaylor Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I'd drop gliding, it is just flight with limitations. It's like having water walking as a power, pointless duplication and specialization. I'd change the rules of attacks from surprise to do half CON rather than double stun. I'd change the block rules to be a roll against the DCV the attack hit rather than their OCV. A great attack roll makes it harder to block. Off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxly Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I think it goes beyond that - just as an energy blast has to be visible to three senses, so does invisibility, and I don't think that simply means that it is only noticed if you make a noise, or someone has an enhanced sense any more than EB is not noticed unless you shoot a pile of tin cans and they clatter down. Mind you that would be a sensible enough way to deal with the problem I still think you are over analyzing it. Take a Revolver. Still "Costs END" even though it may have charges, so it has to be "visable." Hearing: The BANG! of the powder igniting and the bullet going super-sonic. Sight: The muzzle flash and powder ignition ... But it's hard to see in a well lit area unless you happen to be looking at it. Smell: The smell of burnt gun powder ... but it's hard to smell unless you are close anddown wind or have heightened smell. It can also be overpowered by other smells, like a sewer. Perceivable, but to differant extents. I don't think when it says a power must be "percievable" it means "blatantly perceivable." I don't have my book with me, so I can't check the exact wording. And as an aside: Shapeshift. Just because you can make yourself look like a tree, doesn't mean you would feel like one when touched, or sound like one when struck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace EGO Entangles must take "Can Not Form barriers." Nope. What's wrong with the idea of a barrier that takes willpower rather than brute strength to bypass? Nothing! In fact, that's a great way to make an "ofuda" style spirit ward! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I still think you are over analyzing it. Take a Revolver. Still "Costs END" even though it may have charges, so it has to be "visable." Hearing: The BANG! of the powder igniting and the bullet going super-sonic. Sight: The muzzle flash and powder ignition ... But it's hard to see in a well lit area unless you happen to be looking at it. Smell: The smell of burnt gun powder ... but it's hard to smell unless you are close anddown wind or have heightened smell. It can also be overpowered by other smells, like a sewer. Perceivable, but to differant extents. I don't think when it says a power must be "percievable" it means "blatantly perceivable." I don't have my book with me, so I can't check the exact wording. And as an aside: Shapeshift. Just because you can make yourself look like a tree, doesn't mean you would feel like one when touched, or sound like one when struck. Over analysing is one of the politer things I get accused of Nonetheless, taking your gun example, it si very obvious that a gun is being fired, unless there is so much extranous 'noise' that it cannot be perceived. It has to be equally obvious for any power with visible sfx. You can't define a gun's visible sfx as the target feeling the impact, seeing the blood and hearing themselves scream... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace While we're talking about that perceivable power rule and things we ignore... that's one of 'em. All Attack Powers must be perceivable by normal individuals as being used, and it must be apparent who used it and on whom. This is not absolute, as anyone simply not paying attention may not notice each of these, and a clever person may use an Attack Power in a way in which it is concealed by the environment (by using cover, distractions, etc.). An Attack Power may take Noisy, a -1/4 Limitation in which case is it virtually impossible to conceal the use of it. Note I make no mention of required Sense Groups or such. It doesn't really matter as long as the above is accomplished. I also don't care about non Attack Powers. I don't care if your Flight is glowy, hums and smells funny and your Gliding isn't. I also consider anything that involves an OCV roll versus a target to be an Attack Power, such as Missile Deflection. Other Powers, in general, should be noticeable, but I'm not as strict as I am with Attack Powers. And of course Powers that shouldn't be noticeable by definition (Invisibility) just aren't noticeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I'd drop gliding' date=' it is just flight with limitations. It's like having water walking as a power, pointless duplication and specialization.[/quote'] Swinging could get the axe as well, for the same reasons. I actually almost always buy my swinging as flight with a very minor to no limitation for it requiring a swing line. How else can I accomplish all those physics defying stunts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace And swimming. Drop swimming too. It's just Flight "Only In Liquids" anyway. And Teleport... as that's just Flight "Does Not Cross Interviening Space". And gotta toss out Running: Flight "Only On A Surface" While we're at it, get rid of FTL... Flight "Goes Really Really Fast" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace I'd change the rules of attacks from surprise to do half CON rather than double stun. Ur? I've no idea what you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Re: Rules to ignore, or replace Ur? I've no idea what you're talking about. I think he might mean that any stun from a suprise attack that gets past defenses be compared to 1/2 of a target's normal CON for purposes of determining if they are stunned. I think it's an interesting idea. Would go a long way towards eliminating the perception by many on this board that it's often easier to knockout HERO character's than it is to stun them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.