How would you build missles comic style

[Doc Democracy]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

That seems like an elegant way of doing it' date=' but does uncontrollable mean that there continue to be attack rolls, or that you either hit or miss and the effect continues? It seems that one of the biggest benefits of this sort of attack is that your target must burn actions to evade it.[/quote']

 

yeah - if it is built round continuous uncontrollable then the attack continues. Unlike other continuous uncontrollable attacks a hit ends the attack though and so should get a discount on the advantage (it is not quite continuous as defined).

 

The target can either burn actions to evade or can take simply hope it misses...like other attacks.

 

 

Doc

[McCoy]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

I'm wondering whether the OCV of the firer should come into it? Should anyone be able to fire a homing missile with equal ability? Does your agility in combat have that much effect? Was wondering whether the missile might have a base CV regardless of firer - so' date=' for example, the missile fires at CV 8 and has 10 levels. That means it should hit most people but that more agile folk will have more opportunity to shoot it down or distract it to another target. [/quote']

Two approches, fly by wire vs. fire & forget.

 

If the missile is being controled by the launcher, it uses his/her OCV. Knocking out the launcher would result in the missile traveling a straight line utill it ran out of fuel/end, and any maneuvering by its intended target would evade it.

 

If fire and forget, the missile has its own characteristic DEX, so its own OCV. If the launcher is knocked out, the missile still persues its target. If you don't want just anyone using a Surface to Air missile, put "requires a skill roll" on the summoning.

 

I'm wondering how fast it moves. Could someone simply outrun it in the time they had. For example' date=' if someone was to be hit in four phases, could they push their movement and get outside the range of the missile? I'm assuming the answer to that is yes? Thus avoiding what was essentially a good,'to-hit' roll.[/quote']

Movement shoud probably be customized, needs to be faster than the target (if not the target can just switch to NCM and outrun it), yet not fast enough that it can catch the hero before the hero has a phase to act.

 

Blocks and missile deflection avoid what is essentially a good 'to-hit' roll, so I don't see the problem.

 

How do you get it to 'hit' a wrong target. Should the target have a chance of using a dummy target and getting the missile to get a wrong lock? How does that work? A base INT/PER roll modified by the GM for circumstances?

That's how I'd do it. The missile misses its PER roll, it has lost target lock or aquired the wrong target.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

Movement shoud probably be customized' date=' needs to be faster than the target (if not the target can just switch to NCM and outrun it), yet not fast enough that it can catch the hero before the hero has a phase to act.[/quote']

 

Customised on a target by target basis? I think that the actual speed needs to be hand-waved under this approach (after all other attacks do not have speeds - they hit or they do not regardless of the speed of the target). Essentially the initial roll will tell the GM if the missile is going to hit and how many passes it will require to do so. It will not hit before the PC has at least one opportunity to deflect/avoid it, shoot it out of the sky or trick it to another target - the GM should know how many times the missile can be avoided for unless destroyed or tricked.

 

I would expect that blocks and deflections could extend that time but not cancel the hit (it is homing after all)

 

Blocks and missile deflection avoid what is essentially a good 'to-hit' roll' date=' so I don't see the problem.[/quote']

 

Well, part of this is that the hit is delayed but if the target is moving while avoiding then that target can get outside the effective range of the attack before it hits - thus not having to make a roll as necessary for blocks or deflections...

 

I don't have a great problem with it, just trying to make sure all the wrinkles have been explored.

 

 

Doc

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

There's two easy ways to do it; the first is a lot like this; it's the build for my ANVIL missiles from HERO: Combat Evolved. It's an IR missile, built as an attack with a bunch of limitations on it, including "can be countered with Flares." You can modify that to "Easily Fooled; if exposed to a higher grade heat source, missile makes a new attack roll to change target." OR, you build it as a vehicle, and if it's a 'dumb' IR missile, then you'd want to give it an EGO score (a full stat sheet) and have it make an EGO check before being pulled off target, and then making a new attack roll. However, from above, you make your attack roll at launch,; you already know if the missile will hit, but the distance limitation is to give you a chance to shake the lock. Hence part of the limitation is "at least one segment to reach target," so you have the drama of all your klaxons and shiny warning lights going off, and can juke (dodge), pop flares, or both.

 

45 Anvil II ASM: Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6-1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Armor Piercing (x2; +1) (206 Active Points); 8 Charges (Must be Reloaded at a UNSC Facility; -1), OIF Bulky (-1), Extra Time (Extra Segment, Travels 200" per Segment, taking a minimum of 1 Segment to Reach its Target; -1/2), Infrared Tracking (Can be Countered with Flares; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Arc Of Fire (180 degrees; -1/4)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

45 Anvil II ASM: Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6-1' date=' +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Armor Piercing (x2; +1) (206 Active Points); 8 Charges (Must be Reloaded at a UNSC Facility; -1), OIF Bulky (-1), Extra Time (Extra Segment, Travels 200" per Segment, taking a minimum of 1 Segment to Reach its Target; -1/2), Infrared Tracking (Can be Countered with Flares; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Arc Of Fire (180 degrees; -1/4)[/quote']

 

So how do you juke?

 

If the firer has OCV 8 and the target DCV 6. A roll of 13 or less provides a hit, the damage of which will be delayed by at least 1 segment depending on distance. The target in that segment could shoot the missile out of the sky (as covered by real weapon limitiation) and can be countered by flares (I presume the missile will explode when it hits the flares). I see nothing that obviously allows a 'juke'.

 

If the target aborted to dodge then the target CV would change to 9 and rolls of 10 or less would be required for a hit. If the original roll was 11,12 or 13 would this mean that they now miss. Would the missile get a second chance to lock and hit? Would original rolls of 10 or less still hit?

 

Would an abort to dive for cover be valueless?

 

If the targert can travel in excess of 200" per segment does that mean they can outrun the missile until it hits its effective range?

 

 

Doc

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

So how do you juke?

 

If the firer has OCV 8 and the target DCV 6. A roll of 13 or less provides a hit, the damage of which will be delayed by at least 1 segment depending on distance. The target in that segment could shoot the missile out of the sky (as covered by real weapon limitiation) and can be countered by flares (I presume the missile will explode when it hits the flares). I see nothing that obviously allows a 'juke'.

 

If the target aborted to dodge then the target CV would change to 9 and rolls of 10 or less would be required for a hit. If the original roll was 11,12 or 13 would this mean that they now miss. Would the missile get a second chance to lock and hit? Would original rolls of 10 or less still hit?

 

Would an abort to dive for cover be valueless?

 

If the targert can travel in excess of 200" per segment does that mean they can outrun the missile until it hits its effective range?

 

 

Doc

 

I don't know that I understand the question, Doc. If I shoot at you -- with anything -- then there's a tangible, measurable result. We'll say using your example, we have two pilots. Pilot A and Pilot B.

 

Pilot A is hanging well behind and slightly above Pilot B. He makes an attack (locks on) and fires at Pilot B with above mentioned missile, yes? He has an OCV 7 with shipboard weapons, and rolls a 9. Mmkay. (11+7)-9 = DCV of 9 or less. Pilot B has a DCV of 6.

 

The missile is fired and the result is known (a hit). The pilot, having a split second to make a decision (one segment delay before impact) says "Screw this, I'm aborting to dodge" and uses either a regular Dodge (Juke) giving him +3 DCV, or the piloting equivalent of Martial Dodge (if he's very good) and getting a full +5.

 

The mechanical result is the missile goes sailing past him (a miss). There's no magical turning around for the missile (they don't do that; they may try and turn but they'll run out of fuel long before they can double back). The dramatic result is that he snaps his ailerons and pops his wing up at the last second, just dodging the nose of the missile.

 

If he has Flares, then the flares (IIRC) are built as a counter-measure. I'd have to check the build, but the idea is similar. He could reasonably do both, since 'activating a power,' is a zero phase action, and that would apply in a vehicle the same as it does to a character.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

Could you abort to Dive for Cover from a vehicle? I would think it would depend on common and dramatic sense, but so long as the attack isn't an AOE, then I'd say "probably, if you're good enough."

[Doc Democracy]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

I don't know that I understand the question' date=' Doc. If I shoot at you -- with anything -- then there's a tangible, measurable result. We'll say using your example, we have two pilots. Pilot A and Pilot B.[/quote']

 

The difference is real life versus heroic (and comicbook) action.

 

It may be that in real life a homing missile gets one chance. In cartoons, comics and some heroic action films the misle gets two or more chances. That is what we are trying to model.

 

The mechanical result is the missile goes sailing past him (a miss). There's no magical turning around for the missile (they don't do that; they may try and turn but they'll run out of fuel long before they can double back). The dramatic result is that he snaps his ailerons and pops his wing up at the last second, just dodging the nose of the missile.

 

If he has Flares, then the flares (IIRC) are built as a counter-measure. I'd have to check the build, but the idea is similar. He could reasonably do both, since 'activating a power,' is a zero phase action, and that would apply in a vehicle the same as it does to a character.

 

Very reasonable for real life and it fits your build. I would ask whether the fact that the missiles were of the homing variety whether they should give you a bonus beyond the no range penalty but it could be considered 'guilding the lily'!

 

As far as the comicbook version goes - you see what we are trying to accomplish - it goes a bit beyond your build and comes with its own problems.

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

Could you abort to Dive for Cover from a vehicle? I would think it would depend on common and dramatic sense' date=' but so long as the attack isn't an AOE, then I'd say "probably, if you're good enough."[/quote']

 

Given your build then it is entirely a matter of GM opinion within the dramatic moment. How would you determine whether someone was 'good enough'? The mechanics would say that it shouldn't be an issue...of course you can dive for cover from a ranged killing attack.

 

 

Doc

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

The difference is real life versus heroic (and comicbook) action.

 

Eh, sure, then you just modify your rules to make the attack either 'Continuous' or give it Make Another Pass: Trigger, (same power, RKA, whole nine yards), Trigger activates if missile is dodged the first time.

 

Foomp. Instantly makes a "second pass" once it goes past you. That's the easiest way to do it, if points just don't matter.

[CaptD]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

I'm essentially here in the discussion - I'm not a great fan of the summon [vehicle] approaches.

 

I'm picking this approach to let fast thinking players have a chance of avoiding or reducing the damamge the missle would cause. It could be more fun then just haveing a RKA, roll to hit, and Boom.

 

I'm wondering whether the OCV of the firer should come into it? Should anyone be able to fire a homing missile with equal ability? Does your agility in combat have that much effect?

 

Not really, push a button and it will self target (This is comic book science.)

 

Was wondering whether the missile might have a base CV regardless of firer - so, for example, the missile fires at CV 8 and has 10 levels. That means it should hit most people but that more agile folk will have more opportunity to shoot it down or distract it to another target.

 

Correct.

 

I'm wondering how fast it moves. Could someone simply outrun it in the time they had. For example, if someone was to be hit in four phases, could they push their movement and get outside the range of the missile? I'm assuming the answer to that is yes? Thus avoiding what was essentially a good,'to-hit' roll.

 

Yes and No. If you see how I bought the explosion it's a HKA. So the missle has to actually hit it's target. So if the hero is fast enough he could out run it long enough for the missle to run out of gas (END reserve 0 REC).

 

How do you get it to 'hit' a wrong target. Should the target have a chance of using a dummy target and getting the missile to get a wrong lock? How does that work? A base INT/PER roll modified by the GM for circumstances?

 

Yes and I constrained it in it's disadvantages. It attacks the closest and most intense heat source. So Johnny Storm and heat up something and get it to hit that thing.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

I'm picking this approach to let fast thinking players have a chance of avoiding or reducing the damamge the missle would cause. It could be more fun then just haveing a RKA' date=' roll to hit, and Boom.[/quote']

 

Appreciate that. I was trying to explore ways of achieving that same end without using the Summon approach. My other questions are probably relevant only in that context - with the Summon approach it is easy to provide answers (which may say something in itself).

 

With the summon approach I think that you have to buy automaton - it should not be subject to PRE attacks and your build leaves it very open to such things...

 

I would also like to know what happens when the missile attacks and misses. Does it simply blow up? Will that always be in the hex next to the target? What if the target dives for cover? It blows up and he gets away scot free? Even if the missile has fuel left for more movement?

 

Possibly you need to change the limitation on the killing attack to automaton destroyed on successful hit??

 

It's a small point but I wouldn't give the missile a -1/2 limitation for no STR bonus when STR is zero.

 

Finally, if this is a superhero game, I'm not sure that it would catch many superheroes that would not be able to just stand and take the hit...

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

Eh' date=' sure, then you just modify your rules to make the attack either 'Continuous' or give it [i']Make Another Pass[/i]: Trigger, (same power, RKA, whole nine yards), Trigger activates if missile is dodged the first time.

 

Foomp. Instantly makes a "second pass" once it goes past you. That's the easiest way to do it, if points just don't matter.

 

Actually, I think the Trigger is probably the best answer. I don't like the Summon, not because it is clunky, but because the cost of Summoning a missile with a 6d6 RKA that attempts to attack the target at my OCV every phase is a lot cheaper than buying a 6d6 RKA.

 

The ability to try again without a further attack action on my part adds utility. It should, therefore, add to the cost. Adding a Trigger would add that cost reasonably equitably. It will need a Physical Manifestation (the missile) so it can be shot out of the air, and perhaps a further Limitation to encompass the time it may take to reach the target and/or the ability to mislead its sensors. The Trigger can be self-resetting, for any number of passes as desired.

[CaptD]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

With the summon approach I think that you have to buy automaton - it should not be subject to PRE attacks and your build leaves it very open to such things...

 

I would also like to know what happens when the missile attacks and misses. Does it simply blow up? Will that always be in the hex next to the target? What if the target dives for cover? It blows up and he gets away scot free? Even if the missile has fuel left for more movement?

 

Possibly you need to change the limitation on the killing attack to automaton destroyed on successful hit??

 

It's a small point but I wouldn't give the missile a -1/2 limitation for no STR bonus when STR is zero.

 

Finally, if this is a superhero game, I'm not sure that it would catch many superheroes that would not be able to just stand and take the hit...

 

 

Doc

 

You see the pre because I switched the format to get a simple text form. Also, good point about the str. Also a good point about blowing up after a sucessful hit.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

Actually, I think the Trigger is probably the best answer. I don't like the Summon, not because it is clunky, but because the cost of Summoning a missile with a 6d6 RKA that attempts to attack the target at my OCV every phase is a lot cheaper than buying a 6d6 RKA.

 

The ability to try again without a further attack action on my part adds utility. It should, therefore, add to the cost. Adding a Trigger would add that cost reasonably equitably. It will need a Physical Manifestation (the missile) so it can be shot out of the air, and perhaps a further Limitation to encompass the time it may take to reach the target and/or the ability to mislead its sensors. The Trigger can be self-resetting, for any number of passes as desired.

 

That was my general line of thinking, yes. It could do infinitely if you really wanted it too, this being HERO and all, but that borders on the excessive.

[Fedifensor]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

Here's an advantage I made for an old (pre-DOJ) Digital Hero article:

 

Seeking (+1/2) - This Advantage allows an attack that has missed a target to keep making attack rolls in successive Phases until it hits. END is paid for each phase, and the character must dedicate a half-Phase attack action each Phase to maintain the power. Each shot is as if the character was firing from the hex occupied by the target in the previous phase, including range penalties - in other words, don't stand still if you're the target of a seeking blast. By combining this power with Uncontrolled, 'fire and forget' attacks can be made. The condition for stopping an Uncontrolled Seeking attack is usually to dodge out of the way when next to a hard surface, or making an attack roll at the firing character's DCV +2 (treating the attack as if it was a focus).

[Sean Waters]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

As to whether the OCV of the firing character should matter, well, this is comic book stuff: the missiles are presumably being bought by a specific character as a power, so that same character will always be firing them, and so the OCV will always be the same UNLESS they have been subject to adjustment powers.

 

There are a couple of ways round this: power defence, always on, only to prevent change in OCV for firing missile

 

OR

 

A limitation on the RKA that it is always OCV 0, and you buy up the number of levels of OCV you want with, well, levels. I might allow that to be -1/4: a 60 point power and you'd save 12 points, enough to buy the OCV back up to 6 with 2 point levels, or -1/2, saving 20 points, enough to buy it up to 10.

 

Another problem I suppose is that the missile might need additional senses. not much of a problem, really.

 

Anyway, this is pretty much what I suggested before, but with a few sort of bells and whistles. Hugh mentioned before that the additional limitations past 'Physical Manifestion' don't add limtiation, but they do here, in the tweaked version: the extra time allows more chances for the physical manifesation to actually be taken advantage of, and the fact that anyone can missile reflect it means that, well, that's a limitaion. It is.

 

The sfx should NOT be that the thing follows the target closely until it hits, thereby suggesting the target should be constantly wasting phases dodging, or if it is, then any defensive attempt should be treated as a reflection attempt: the character can either ignore it and eventually get hit, or actively defend against it by launching an attack at it or 'reflecting' it. You could even add another limitation, or increase the delay limitation, to indicate that any increase in your DCV delays the attack further (so if you dodge on one phase, for example, the eventual hit will be delayed by a further 3 segments). A similar limitation could be added that it slows the eventual hit if you move over a certain distance in your phase (-1/4). Finally you probably should add a limitation that the attack lasts for a maximum time, say 1 turn - avoid it for that long and it misses completely (-1/4).

 

NB you only need pay END once when launching it. It is basically fire and forget.

 

So:

 

4d6 RKA 60 points

0 base OCV: -1/4

Physical manifestation: -1/4

Can be missile reflected by anyone: -1/4 (or more depending on how easy it is)

Delayed damage -1/4

 

30 points

 

+12 OCV (2 point levels) 24 points

 

Total cost 54 points

 

So, here's how it works: You fire the missile at a target and roll to hit. If you miss, the missile shoots off and explodes somewhere, or crashes, or whatever. Your OCV is 12.

 

If you hit, then you determine how many skill levels you used to hit, for example, against a DCV 9 target, you rolled 10. You'd have hit if your OCV was 8, so you used 8 levels. This is how many segments it takes for the attack to hit. During this time, the attack can be targetted as it has a physical manifesation and, if it is destroyed before it goes off then the damage never occurs. It can also be tricked into hitting something or someone else, because it is treated as an attack that anyone, even someone without the power, can missile reflect.

 

The cost utility is not great, really, because, with this suggested build, you are almost definitely losing out on some OCV, but it seesm to fit the concept OK. You can add charges and such if you like.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

Can be missile reflected by anyone: -1/4 (or more depending on how easy it is)

 

That is a bloody good limitation. I'd rep you again if I didn't already owe you...

 

 

Doc

[Spence]

Re: How would you build missles comic style

 

CaptD

 

All of my missile designs are hardcopy. As soon as I get done entering them into HDv3 I will send them to you. I'm having problems with something in HDv3 and as soon as the HD Genius Squad answers my question over there I'll be able to finish.