Would you allow this?

[Markdoc]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

The Cellular Adder changes the character's DNA. The imitation ADDER allows him to mimic his subjects DNA. If he has changed his DNA and To mimic someone elses DNA. Why isn't it LIKE the subjects? This isn't just masking his DNA it is a change down to the cellular level.

 

Agreed. The character has paid points for shapeshift - allowing him to mimic other forms. In addition, he has paid for the cellular adder, allowing him to mimic those forms down to the cellular level.

 

In the case you described, he did just that. As far as I can see, all this stuff about "he didn't pay for analyse" is so much flibbertigibbit.

 

He didn't pay for analyse. True. But he wasn't analysing the DNA. He paid for the ability to mimic and he mimicked.

 

Basically, after reading all the discussion so far, I still have a hard time seeing the relevance of most of the arguments. Analyse DNA would give you the ability to determine lots of things - such as the relatedness of two DNA samples, the presence of inobvious mutations and so on. Shapeshift - even as described in this incident - gives you none of that. It may allow you to make some guesses based on the appearance of the individual copied. That's it. There is necessarily some overlap, but there's also overlap between EB and HKA - that doesn't mean they are precisely the same power.

 

Basically your call sounds good to me, and I'd go with it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

This is an example of where sfx can have a significant impact ont he power in play.

 

I quite agree that, using 'DNA cloning' as a sfx will not necessarily provide you with a visual duplicate of the original (although it may come close enough to fool people and/or machines, depending on the GM).

 

A Target who is malnourished, with missing limbs and fire scarring to his face is not going to reflect that in his DNA, so the copy will be of him in rude health, not of him as he actually appears.

 

Like I said, sometimes this will be an advantage, sometimes not. If you want to find out who a badly burned corpse WAS then DNA copying will get you very close to an appearance, but visual scanning will not (all you will shapeshift into is the appearance of a badly burned corpse).

 

OTOH if the poor chap had survived, and you wanted to copy him later, DNA copying would be useless - it would not emulate the scarring, which visual scanning would.

 

I am categorically NOT saying that this is the right way to do it or the only way, I'm saying (harking back to the original question) that I would allow someone with the shapeshift power and this sfx to assume the appearance of the dog (in rude good health) that the DNA sample came from, but if someone has an sfx that they copy the appearance of someone they have scanned visually then I would not allow the appearance of the dog to be copied as they had not seen it.

 

I'm just advocating picking a sfx that can be consistently applied, then questions of this sort become moot - you will KNOW from the sfx description whether a particular 'power trick' or even routine use of the power is possible from that.

[Markdoc]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I'd focus more on the in-game problems with such a Power:

 

Would it allow the character to perfectly imitate any individual with whose DNA he comes in contact?

 

My call would be no. Without more information, he'd be able to get a rough copy: what such a person *could* look like. This is what the OP actually allowed and to me seems both logically consistent and mechanically fair.

 

Would that allow him to imitate a long dead person such as Abraham Lincoln? Can the power go back an indefinite amount of time?

 

Sure. DNA is DNA. The time limit is how long DNA remains reasonably intact. A 1000 year old freeze-dried body might yield a fine sample, where a sample from blood lying 24 hours on the asphalt sidewalk in the sun won't.

 

However, you won't get a copy of Honest Abe: you'll get the information that the target is a white human male, with brown eyes and black hair. You might guess that he had hyperthyroidy because the copy has big hands and feet and prominent facial bones. But Abe Lincoln looked quite different at 18 than 45, and would have looked very different with a full beard or no beard at all - so what the shapeshifted copy will look like will depend on some guesses. Chances that you'd get something that looked exactly like (or even recognisable as) Abe Lincoln from a DNA copy are so small as to be essentially negligible.

 

If the copied individual has a genetic disease' date=' does the character contract that disease as well? [/quote']

 

Presumably not. After all you don't gain powers, from copying mutant DNA. Shapeshift lets you well, shapeshift. You get the appearance, not the function. Again, you might guess at some genetic changes, if those changes led to physical alterations. So diabetes would not leave an obvious trace, but Down's syndrome probably would.

 

To get that more detailed information you'd need analyse DNA, not shapeshift.

 

Does the power recreate "after birth" physical properties such as missing limbs' date=' scars, sex changes?[/quote']

 

No. Or, more accurately shapeshift could, but DNA won't give you that information unless those missing limbs are congenital (a genetic defect). Scars and sex changes, whether the subject wore glasses, has shaved his head, etc would be invisible in DNA.

 

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then it's not a "perfect copy" - it's only a first order approximation (as is suggested under Shape Shift when copies of characters can be spotted as copies by anyone with a -3 PER roll). What it does is create a good "artist's rendering" along the lines of those done by police artists. Without substantial amounts of Acting, Disguise, and Mimicry in addition to Shape Shift it's highly unlikely the shapeshifter could pass as the original.

 

Retrocognition would be a lot cheaper way to solve crimes.

 

Agreed. To me, making a rough (and it would be very rough, without more information on the target) copy via DNA is not only logical, but presents no real issues in gameplay. What you are likely to get would be even rougher than most police renderings, without information on age, weight, hair, etc.

 

cheers, Mark

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

So what are you talking about?

I would have thought that was obvious. I may have even stated it explicitly somewhere on this thread. In the hope of making it absolutely clear: I am talking about the rules, fairness, game balance, getting what you pay for and paying for what you get.

 

The rules, the mechanics, do not define a mechanism, so it is quite wrong to imply one that prevents an individual's appearance to be extrapolated from a hank of hair and a piece of bone (or a DNA sample).

The rules don't need to define a mechanism, they only define the benefits. The benefit of Shape Shift is shifting your shape, the benefit of Imitate is the ability to pass yourself off as some specific other person, and the benefit of Cellular is the ability to fool even the most minute scrutiny.

 

The ability to determine a fairly similar likeness to an individual based solely on a DNA sample (or something similar) is IMO, a very significant benefit which Shape Shift does not grant. The Imitation and Cellular adders also don't grant this *informational* ability. Again: Shape Shift is not a Sense Power.

 

Granted, the likeness created won't be exact for all the reasons we keep mentioning ad nauseum: nutrition, exercise, surgery, injury, non-genetic disease, tattoos, makeup, etc., but it will give you a good deal of information. And the Shape Shift power, and its adders, are not intended to give that information. If you want the ability to extract such information, you have to pay for it separately. You can take Linked, Extra Time, Must have a DNA Sample, and other limitations on this Sense power if you like, but you do have to buy it if you want to use it on a regular basis.

 

All you need is a properly defined sfx...

No SFX should give you additional abilities that you haven't paid for. If you don't buy all the abilities that your SFX should grant you, then you've built your character wrong. You don't get anything for free just because you've defined an SFX that implies a particular ability.

 

...but the heart of my point is that you can't come up with one that does not involve obtaining sensory data that a character who is entirely normal except for having the shapeshift (cellular imitation) power, hence the sfx require (in most cases) the assumption of a subconscious sensory power to enable the mechanics.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Senses really don't have to be involved at all. Just like the examples you gave earlier of the mirror and the photocopier - they don't have any "senses" per se. They just obey the laws of physics - light reflecting off of a surface, charging or discharging areas on a photoreceptor. And when you come right down to it, human senses are the same way - your sensory organs are just obeying the laws of physics. Organisms reproduce without needing sensory information about what their offspring will look like.

 

Senses in HERO aren't just SFX or power mechanisms, they are sources of useful information. You pay for the usefulness of the ability to obtain that information, not for the SFX of "eyes" or "DNA analyzing machine".

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I would have thought that was obvious. I may have even stated it explicitly somewhere on this thread. In the hope of making it absolutely clear: I am talking about the rules' date=' fairness, game balance, getting what you pay for and paying for what you get.[/quote']

 

So you are talking about 5 things. Cool.

 

 

The rules don't need to define a mechanism, they only define the benefits. The benefit of Shape Shift is shifting your shape, the benefit of Imitate is the ability to pass yourself off as some specific other person, and the benefit of Cellular is the ability to fool even the most minute scrutiny.

 

The ability to determine a fairly similar likeness to an individual based solely on a DNA sample (or something similar) is IMO, a very significant benefit which Shape Shift does not grant. The Imitation and Cellular adders also don't grant this *informational* ability. Again: Shape Shift is not a Sense Power.

 

Granted, the likeness created won't be exact for all the reasons we keep mentioning ad nauseum: nutrition, exercise, surgery, injury, non-genetic disease, tattoos, makeup, etc., but it will give you a good deal of information. And the Shape Shift power, and its adders, are not intended to give that information. If you want the ability to extract such information, you have to pay for it separately. You can take Linked, Extra Time, Must have a DNA Sample, and other limitations on this Sense power if you like, but you do have to buy it if you want to use it on a regular basis.

 

Come on, you can't use 'ad nauseam' against me when I've just used it. Think up something new.

 

Of course shapeshift is a sense power, or at least (and this is my point) a power that relies on sensory information. If the character dos not BUY an appropriate sense to allow him to perceive DNA then the sfx of the power HAVE to assume such a sense, albeit not a consciuosly accessable one.

 

If you disagree, please - as I have invited you to do many times - provide a viable example of an alternative construct that does not rely on sensory data from (some) source.

 

No SFX should give you additional abilities that you haven't paid for. If you don't buy all the abilities that your SFX should grant you' date=' then you've built your character wrong. You don't get anything for free just because you've defined an SFX that implies a particular ability.[/quote']

 

Right, I can't make this plainer: the 'sense' I'm suggesting is inherent with the power, or rather, necessary for its function, is sfx, not a 'free power'. It is a quite necessary sfx. You can't think of a logical sfx that does not include access to sensory data, can you?

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Senses really don't have to be involved at all. Just like the examples you gave earlier of the mirror and the photocopier - they don't have any "senses" per se. They just obey the laws of physics - light reflecting off of a surface, charging or discharging areas on a photoreceptor. And when you come right down to it, human senses are the same way - your sensory organs are just obeying the laws of physics. Organisms reproduce without needing sensory information about what their offspring will look like.

 

Senses in HERO aren't just SFX or power mechanisms, they are sources of useful information. You pay for the usefulness of the ability to obtain that information, not for the SFX of "eyes" or "DNA analyzing machine".

 

OK: here is what I mean.

 

You come up with a mechanism for DNA imitation that does not involve a sense that the character either:

 

Already has, or

Has access to through a third party, or

Is implied by the power.

 

Do that, and I shut up. Oh, and I am most defintiely contending that one or more senses can be imputed, implied or required by sfx.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Agreed. The character has paid points for shapeshift - allowing him to mimic other forms. In addition, he has paid for the cellular adder, allowing him to mimic those forms down to the cellular level.

 

He didn't pay for analyse. True. But he wasn't analysing the DNA. He paid for the ability to mimic and he mimicked.

 

Basically, after reading all the discussion so far, I still have a hard time seeing the relevance of most of the arguments. Analyse DNA would give you the ability to determine lots of things - such as the relatedness of two DNA samples, the presence of inobvious mutations and so on. Shapeshift - even as described in this incident - gives you none of that. It may allow you to make some guesses based on the appearance of the individual copied. That's it. There is necessarily some overlap, but there's also overlap between EB and HKA - that doesn't mean they are precisely the same power.

 

For a very simple example, if the character investigates three crime scenes, finds a hair at one, a claw at a second and blood at a third, he can shapeshidft to match the DNA of each one and refute a theory that the same person/creature was at each crime scene, since he will become more or less the same creature if it's the same DNA.

 

And why should a character who can emulate DNA be capable of producing even an approximation of physical appearance by doing so? No other traits governed by that DNA (mutant powers, a prehensile tail, the ability to track by scent, gills, a genetic disorder, animal intelligence, etc. etc. etc.) are produced by emulating that DNA. Why would, say, skin colour, or hair colour be any different.

 

"Cellular" does not say the character takes on the target's DNA. It says that his shapeshifting is so precise he can emulate things such as DNA, fingerprints, etc. It is a more precise disguise that better enables you to pass for the target creature, not an analytical tool to extrapolate that a creature with this DNA would tend towards certain physical characteristics, or certain mental characteristics, or certain social behaviours.

 

Sometimes SFX grants certain positive or negative aspects. But sometimes the SFX simply dictate the character should pay for certain positive aspects, or apply limitations or disadvantages for the negative ones. If my character has a wide array of Kung Fu maneuvers, because he was trained in Kung Fu from birth by a series of the best Kung Fu masters on earth, it makes sense that he would have some knowledge of Kung Fu and/or some Contacts with older Masters of Jung Fu. But he does not get a KS: Kung Fu or a series of contacts for free because it matches his SFX - he buys the KS and the contacts because they better enable the character to match his SFX.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

For a very simple example, if the character investigates three crime scenes, finds a hair at one, a claw at a second and blood at a third, he can shapeshidft to match the DNA of each one and refute a theory that the same person/creature was at each crime scene, since he will become more or less the same creature if it's the same DNA.

 

And why should a character who can emulate DNA be capable of producing even an approximation of physical appearance by doing so? No other traits governed by that DNA (mutant powers, a prehensile tail, the ability to track by scent, gills, a genetic disorder, animal intelligence, etc. etc. etc.) are produced by emulating that DNA. Why would, say, skin colour, or hair colour be any different.

 

Because Shapeshift is a power that lets you copy the appeaance of another, not take on their other traits.

 

"Cellular" does not say the character takes on the target's DNA. It says that his shapeshifting is so precise he can emulate things such as DNA, fingerprints, etc. It is a more precise disguise that better enables you to pass for the target creature, not an analytical tool to extrapolate that a creature with this DNA would tend towards certain physical characteristics, or certain mental characteristics, or certain social behaviours.

 

Sometimes SFX grants certain positive or negative aspects. But sometimes the SFX simply dictate the character should pay for certain positive aspects, or apply limitations or disadvantages for the negative ones. If my character has a wide array of Kung Fu maneuvers, because he was trained in Kung Fu from birth by a series of the best Kung Fu masters on earth, it makes sense that he would have some knowledge of Kung Fu and/or some Contacts with older Masters of Jung Fu. But he does not get a KS: Kung Fu or a series of contacts for free because it matches his SFX - he buys the KS and the contacts because they better enable the character to match his SFX.

 

Fine, but here the sfx mechanism for the shapeshift is sugegsted as extrapolation of appearance from DNA. That allows you to get an approximation of the appearance of something you have not seen 'whole' but often prevents you from perfectly copying something even if you have seen it whole. If you don't like it, or it would spoil the plot, then you don't allow it, but I fail to understand why it would be wrong to allow the power to work this way. Is it unbalanced?

[Vondy]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

My call would be no. Without more information, he'd be able to get a rough copy: what such a person *could* look like. This is what the OP actually allowed and to me seems both logically consistent and mechanically fair.

 

 

 

Sure. DNA is DNA. The time limit is how long DNA remains reasonably intact. A 1000 year old freeze-dried body might yield a fine sample, where a sample from blood lying 24 hours on the asphalt sidewalk in the sun won't.

 

However, you won't get a copy of Honest Abe: you'll get the information that the target is a white human male, with brown eyes and black hair. You might guess that he had hyperthyroidy because the copy has big hands and feet and prominent facial bones. But Abe Lincoln looked quite different at 18 than 45, and would have looked very different with a full beard or no beard at all - so what the shapeshifted copy will look like will depend on some guesses. Chances that you'd get something that looked exactly like (or even recognisable as) Abe Lincoln from a DNA copy are so small as to be essentially negligible.

 

 

 

Presumably not. After all you don't gain powers, from copying mutant DNA. Shapeshift lets you well, shapeshift. You get the appearance, not the function. Again, you might guess at some genetic changes, if those changes led to physical alterations. So diabetes would not leave an obvious trace, but Down's syndrome probably would.

 

To get that more detailed information you'd need analyse DNA, not shapeshift.

 

 

 

No. Or, more accurately shapeshift could, but DNA won't give you that information unless those missing limbs are congenital (a genetic defect). Scars and sex changes, whether the subject wore glasses, has shaved his head, etc would be invisible in DNA.

 

 

 

Agreed. To me, making a rough (and it would be very rough, without more information on the target) copy via DNA is not only logical, but presents no real issues in gameplay. What you are likely to get would be even rougher than most police renderings, without information on age, weight, hair, etc.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I'm of the opinion this is totally genre dependent. In terms of science, I agree with what you are saying and in realistic genres I would go with it. But a mimic in most comic books? He'd be able to do an exact copy simply because of writer caveat and genre conventions. In a [most] fantasy, golden age, silver age, or even bronze age game I'd let him make an exact copy. In a grittier pulp or iron/steel age game, maybe not.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Fine' date=' but here the sfx mechanism for the shapeshift is sugegsted as extrapolation of appearance from DNA. That allows you to get an approximation of the appearance of something you have not seen 'whole' but often prevents you from perfectly copying something even if you have seen it whole. If you don't like it, or it would spoil the plot, then you don't allow it, but I fail to understand why it would be wrong to allow the power to work this way. Is it unbalanced?[/quote']

 

I would have two questions here. First, to the character specifically, has he given up the ability to make exact duplicates in exchange for the ability to extrapolate possible appearance basics from a DNA sample? I suspect a character who has purchased the full suite of shapechange expects to be able to make precise duplicates.

 

Second, to the mechanics, assume the character wishes to be able to exrapolate appearance from DNA AND make exact duplicates. How much extra does that cost, and how is it built?

 

I would suggest it is built by purchasing Shape Shift normally, and purchasing a Sense enabling the character to analyze DNA (perhaps Linked to Shape Shift in that he must take on that analyzed appearance for the sense to work). With this in mind, I would suggest the character who does wish to has give up the ability to make exact duplicates in exchange for the ability to extrapolate possible appearance basics from a DNA sample should purchase the same analysis skill and place a limitation on his Shape Shift.

 

Would a character who wants his Fire Bolt to be incapable of harming him, with the tradeoff being that it is reduced in power as it is fired at greater ranges, get these abilities as a simp;le tradeoff, or have a +1/4 advantage (personal Immunity) and a -1/4 limitation (reduced by range) on his EB?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

I would have two questions here. First' date=' to the character specifically, has he given up the ability to make exact duplicates in exchange for the ability to extrapolate possible appearance basics from a DNA sample? I suspect a character who has purchased the full suite of shapechange expects to be able to make precise duplicates.[/quote']

 

Not QUITE given it up - at the GM's discretion, the copy could be exact. He coudl also buy the power with eitrher variale sfx or buy the 'sight group' twice so that he can make copies in more than one way.

 

Second, to the mechanics, assume the character wishes to be able to exrapolate appearance from DNA AND make exact duplicates. How much extra does that cost, and how is it built?

 

I would suggest it is built by purchasing Shape Shift normally, and purchasing a Sense enabling the character to analyze DNA (perhaps Linked to Shape Shift in that he must take on that analyzed appearance for the sense to work). With this in mind, I would suggest the character who does wish to has give up the ability to make exact duplicates in exchange for the ability to extrapolate possible appearance basics from a DNA sample should purchase the same analysis skill and place a limitation on his Shape Shift.

 

Would a character who wants his Fire Bolt to be incapable of harming him, with the tradeoff being that it is reduced in power as it is fired at greater ranges, get these abilities as a simp;le tradeoff, or have a +1/4 advantage (personal Immunity) and a -1/4 limitation (reduced by range) on his EB?

 

Yes, indeed, you could do it by buying a sense, which then gives you the necessary 'image' for you to copy with a more conventional form of shapeshift, or one of the methods I mentioned above. Chances are the sense will be the cheapest option. The sense would almost certainly cost less than a +1/4 advantage would cost, and so to me is well within the realm of sfx advantages - so long as there are corresponding disadvantages.

 

The fire bolt example uses an advantage which is measureable in value as a +1/4 so you would not normally buy it that way. However, as a rather different point, I personally would not have a problem with the particular example you give.

[archermoo]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

If all the magic has is a hair, all it can duplicate is the appearance of that hair. It can make your whole DNA structure look like the DNA of that hair. It can make your hair the same length as that one specific hair, and the same colour. You can even have the same split ends.

 

But the magic can only duplicate appearances. It cannot extrapolate, from that hair, what kind of creature that hair fell out of. It does not know how many limbs it has, whether it walks on four legs or two, how tall it might be, what colour its eyes are, or even whether it has eyes.

 

Shape Shift duplicates appearances. It does not change the substance of the creature. The shape shifter needs to have some idea of the appearance he is trying to simulate. Hearing a target over the radio would enable the shape shifter to simulate that target's voice, but not his eye colour or hair length. Seeing a photograph of the target's face would permit the shapeshifter to take on that face, but not a voice or a club foot - he doesn't know about either from the photo.

 

Minor advantages and drawbacks might arise from SFX. Major additional abilities, such as "extrapolate physical appearance from a small DNA sample" are paid for separately.

 

The classic shapeshifter with Cellular and Imitate is Mystique. She imitates, but cannot analyze, DNA.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what limitation they would allow for a shapeshifter who CAN'T duplicate non-DNA appearance from a small DNA sample. If this is allowed by default, then there must be some limitation for a character who lacks this default ability, mustn't there?

 

Ah, so just a basic "because I don't want to do it that way" rather than any explaination. As I've said before, I've got no problems with that. You don't like it, so you won't allow it in your games. More power to you. I think it is a potentially useful idea, and would be willing to entertain its use in my games. Both decisions are well within the rules as written. You don't consider a DNA sample to be "some reasonable grounds for copying someone". I feel that it potentially qualifies, depending on SFX.

 

As to what a theoretical limitation would be worth, in most games I'd say probably nothing. It isn't limiting enough to get even close to a -1/4, which is of course why including it based on SFX is perfectly reasonable.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Of course shapeshift is a sense power' date='[/quote']

No. It isn't. Let's try and stay in the same universe of discourse here. Are we talking about the HERO System, or something else?

 

...or at least (and this is my point) a power that relies on sensory information.

But that's not what a Sense Power is. A Sense Power *provides* information. You could just as easily call any attack power a "sense power" since you rely on senory information to target it.

 

If the character dos not BUY an appropriate sense to allow him to perceive DNA then the sfx of the power HAVE to assume such a sense, albeit not a consciuosly accessable one.

 

If you disagree, please - as I have invited you to do many times - provide a viable example of an alternative construct that does not rely on sensory data from (some) source.

Are you reading my posts at all? I don't care whether the power *relies* on sensory data. Lots of non-sense powers rely on sensory data - attack powers and adjustment powers rely on a sense to target with, movement powers rely on a sense so you know where you're going, body-affecting powers rely on the "internal" senses to know the state of one's own body, even Invisibility relies on some kind of sense to allow you to see even though light passes through you.

 

The problem isn't relying on sensory data. The problem is the granting of *additional* senory data.

 

You can't think of a logical sfx that does not include access to sensory data, can you?

Maybe, maybe not. But if it's sensory data that you don't already have, you have to pay for it.

 

Fine, but here the sfx mechanism for the shapeshift is sugegsted as extrapolation of appearance from DNA. That allows you to get an approximation of the appearance of something you have not seen 'whole' but often prevents you from perfectly copying something even if you have seen it whole. If you don't like it, or it would spoil the plot, then you don't allow it, but I fail to understand why it would be wrong to allow the power to work this way. Is it unbalanced?

Yes it is. That "approximation of the appearance of something you have not seen 'whole'" is a very useful ability which the Shape Shift power doesn't give you by itself.

 

Not QUITE given it up - at the GM's discretion, the copy could be exact. He coudl also buy the power with eitrher variale sfx or buy the 'sight group' twice so that he can make copies in more than one way.

So here you seem to want to gain the advantage without taking a corresponding disadvantage to compensate and balance the power. If you did give up the ability to make such exact copies, then I might well consider that balanced in exchange for the DNA extrapolation ability.

 

Yes, indeed, you could do it by buying a sense, which then gives you the necessary 'image' for you to copy with a more conventional form of shapeshift, or one of the methods I mentioned above. Chances are the sense will be the cheapest option. The sense would almost certainly cost less than a +1/4 advantage would cost, and so to me is well within the realm of sfx advantages - so long as there are corresponding disadvantages.

That's not correct. Just because something would cost less than a +1/4 Advantage doesn't mean you get it for free. If you want a minor advantage for free, then you need to take a corresponding minor limitation.

 

I just found the exact senory power in The Ultimate Metamorph. It was listed at 22 points. Of course in the case we're discussing, it would cost less than that, because it would be Linked to the Shape Shift, and would probably have other Limitations as well.

[Markdoc]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

For a very simple example' date=' if the character investigates three crime scenes, finds a hair at one, a claw at a second and blood at a third, he can shapeshidft to match the DNA of each one and refute a theory that the same person/creature was at each crime scene, since he will become more or less the same creature if it's the same DNA.[/quote']

 

Nope - all he'd be able to do is work out if it's the same species. Just as pointed out with Abe Lincoln, without more information, all you get from his DNA is that it's a possibly dark-haired male human. With the evidence you provided above, you could only rule out the theory that the same person/creature was at each crime scene, if the material came from different species/genders: which wouldn't be that hard to work out by other routes - taking the samples to a professional forensics lab would get you more information for a few hundred bucks.

 

To me, that falls within the allowable special effects of the power - as, indeed is directly implied by the rules, where it discusses copying a person from one hair.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

No. It isn't. Let's try and stay in the same universe of discourse here. Are we talking about the HERO System, or something else?

 

 

But that's not what a Sense Power is. A Sense Power *provides* information. You could just as easily call any attack power a "sense power" since you rely on senory information to target it.

 

M'Kay. You buy this attack, like this: EB 10d6, indirect, +4 OCV, 8 charges. You define it (sfx wise) as a mini missile, with homing capability. You can fire it at a target you've just seen dodge round a corner, and the +4 cancels the cover bonus.

 

Now a missile with homing capability has to have some sort of sensor built in, either to detect the target, or to accept instructions from you ass to the direction to take, so the sfx are that it is a missile, with senseors and an explosive warhead.

 

Do you honestly think you need to buy a new sense for that?

 

No, BUY that's different, isn't it? You don't need to imply any sense that the character does not have.

 

I know that, I'm just making the point, if it is in dispute, that a power's sfx can include it having one or more senses.

 

Now we need to go back to shapeshift.

 

Look at the description.

 

Where does it mention that you can only do a cellular imitation if you have a sense that enables you to 'image' DNA (it does not need to be able to analyse it, just be able to 'see' it, because sure as chips is chips, a normal human cannot 'image' DNA well enough to even draw the damn thing let alone indidtinguishably copy it on a moluecular level)?

 

So, do you think that a character needs to buy an additional sense to use cellular imitation shapeshift, no matter the sfx?

 

I'd say you do not.

 

If I'm right then a sense, of sorts, is implied by the power itself, at least as far as sfx goes, and we have already established that a 'sfx sense' is normal and allowable.

 

The real leap of faith here comes with the ability to derive phenotype information froma genotype. Like I said, it won't be perfect in most cases, but I'm not seeing the problem. It is information that allows you to draw a conclusion, just as seeing someone allows you to drawa conclusion about what they look like (and I say that advisedly: rarely will you be able to study someone you are about to copy from all angles and without intervening clothing - a degree of assumption is required in most cases).

 

 

 

Are you reading my posts at all? I don't care whether the power *relies* on sensory data. Lots of non-sense powers rely on sensory data - attack powers and adjustment powers rely on a sense to target with, movement powers rely on a sense so you know where you're going, body-affecting powers rely on the "internal" senses to know the state of one's own body, even Invisibility relies on some kind of sense to allow you to see even though light passes through you.

 

The problem isn't relying on sensory data. The problem is the granting of *additional* senory data.

 

I only read every third line of every other post you write. I have to tell you that you are not making much sense so far

 

The difference here, as I'm trying to get you to acknowledge, is that

shapeshift implies a sense that the base character may not otherwise possess, whereas attack powers etc generally do not. If the power works at all then it has to give you sensory data that you cuold obtain no other way. What you do with the data (i.e. the sfx of how shapeshift works) is then a matter of negotiation and clarification between player and GM. Nothing in the rules prevents this useage.

 

Maybe' date=' maybe not. But if it's sensory data that you don't already have, you have to pay for it.[/quote']

 

I'm not saying anything, but I am smiling.

 

 

Yes it is. That "approximation of the appearance of something you have not seen 'whole'" is a very useful ability which the Shape Shift power doesn't give you by itself.

 

So is accurately copying the visual appearance of someone you can just see a picture of, without having to see them 'whole'. Can you do that with shapeshift? Presumably not...

 

 

So here you seem to want to gain the advantage without taking a corresponding disadvantage to compensate and balance the power. If you did give up the ability to make such exact copies' date=' then I might well consider that balanced in exchange for the DNA extrapolation ability.[/quote']

 

Now you are not reading what I'm writing - it is up to the GM how accurately a 'DNA close' resembles the original. Logically, and appropriately to the sfx and the power, that could be almost perfectly, to not really at all. If not necessarily being able to copy someone accurately enough to fool a third party is not a disadvantage then i'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

 

 

That's not correct. Just because something would cost less than a +1/4 Advantage doesn't mean you get it for free. If you want a minor advantage for free' date=' then you need to take a corresponding minor limitation.[/quote']

 

See above.

 

I just found the exact senory power in The Ultimate Metamorph. It was listed at 22 points. Of course in the case we're discussing' date=' it would cost less than that, because it would be Linked to the Shape Shift, and would probably have other Limitations as well.[/quote']

 

I'm not saying you can't build it with a sense, I'm saying the information is goined through an imputed sense for the purposes of using the power only. What a sense 'on its own' would (perhaps) enable you to do is 'see' what someone looks like (more or less accurately) from a DNA sample. What a 'DNA clone sfx' shapeshift would do is allow you to turn into a more or less accurate copy of the original, without needing the sense. It is a pretty expensive way to get the information, but you might let someone power trick it once or twice even if their sfx did not quite work that way. Mind you it would not let you change the hair colour, or length, or add a beard, or a bit of weight. Not without additional advantages or a slightly different build, but then you know that because I've said it already.

[Mentor]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

After reading this thread in its entirety, my answer would be no, I would not allow this

.

The power to reproduce an object or person should by paying for ful Shape Shift should require contact with the entire object or person, not just a hair or cell. Automatic assumption that it is DNA that is being analyzed rather than the structure of the mimicked person, even down to cellular level, doesn't automatically follow, IMHO.

 

Even the appropriate special effect which assumes DNA analysis as the cause of the shape shift should not allow the ability for previously stated reasons.

[archermoo]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

After reading this thread in its entirety, my answer would be no, I would not allow this

.

The power to reproduce an object or person should by paying for ful Shape Shift should require contact with the entire object or person, not just a hair or cell. Automatic assumption that it is DNA that is being analyzed rather than the structure of the mimicked person, even down to cellular level, doesn't automatically follow, IMHO.

 

Even the appropriate special effect which assumes DNA analysis as the cause of the shape shift should not allow the ability for previously stated reasons.

 

Fair enough. My only minor nitpick is the use of "should not allow" rather than "I wouldn't allow" in the last sentance. We already know that it is within the rules to allow it (Steve was nice enough to clarify that bit), and so it is just down to a GMs call as to whether they think it is reasonable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

M'Kay. You buy this attack, like this: EB 10d6, indirect, +4 OCV, 8 charges. You define it (sfx wise) as a mini missile, with homing capability. You can fire it at a target you've just seen dodge round a corner, and the +4 cancels the cover bonus.

 

Now a missile with homing capability has to have some sort of sensor built in, either to detect the target, or to accept instructions from you ass to the direction to take, so the sfx are that it is a missile, with senseors and an explosive warhead.

 

Do you honestly think you need to buy a new sense for that?

 

No. But you also don't know that there are allies of the character waiting around the corner simply because the homing missile can go there. You get the +4 OCV you paid for, and no extra benefits.

 

Just as some of us are suggesting that Cellular shape shift, with no enhanced sense, gets you the ability to mimic another creature's DNA, but not the ability to extrapolate anything else about the creature from that mimicry.

 

Where does it mention that you can only do a cellular imitation if you have a sense that enables you to 'image' DNA (it does not need to be able to analyse it, just be able to 'see' it, because sure as chips is chips, a normal human cannot 'image' DNA well enough to even draw the damn thing let alone indidtinguishably copy it on a molecular level)?

 

So, do you think that a character needs to buy an additional sense to use cellular imitation shapeshift, no matter the sfx?

 

I'd say you do not.

 

You don't need a sense to mimic the DNA. But the ability to mimic is not the ability to analyze, nor to extrapolate information regarding the owner of that DNA. You can make your own DNA appear identical, but it does not actually becomes someone or something else's DNA.

 

The difference here' date=' as I'm trying to get you to acknowledge, is that shapeshift implies a sense that the base character may not otherwise possess, whereas attack powers etc generally do not. If the power works at all then it has to give you sensory data that you cuold obtain no other way. What you do with the data (i.e. the sfx of how shapeshift works) is then a matter of negotiation and clarification between player and GM. Nothing in the rules prevents this useage.[/quote']

 

It implies the ability to process sufficiently to mimic sensory output for a sense you may not possess. It doesn't grant you any other abilities which would come from such a sense. Shape Shift: Smell does not provide you with the ability to identify a person or creature by its scent, only the ability to mimic that scent precisely enough that someone or thing with that ability mistakes you for the creature you imitate.

 

So is accurately copying the visual appearance of someone you can just see a picture of' date=' without having to see them 'whole'. Can you do that with shapeshift? Presumably not...[/quote']

 

If the photo is head & shoulders, how would you know the target is missing both legs?

 

Now you are not reading what I'm writing - it is up to the GM how accurately a 'DNA close' resembles the original. Logically' date=' and appropriately to the sfx and the power, that could be almost perfectly, to not really at all. If not necessarily being able to copy someone accurately enough to fool a third party is not a disadvantage then i'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.[/quote']

 

If you have a sample of the DNA, your copy can fol a third party intyo thinking you have the same DNA. It doesn't give you any idea what visual apearance to duplicate. If all you have is a photo, how accurately can you imitate the target's voice (sound) and body oror (smell)?

 

Turning that around, can you create a perfect visual and cellular copy from a telephone discussion or hearing the target on the radio?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

.................................

 

If the photo is head & shoulders, how would you know the target is missing both legs?

 

Someone told you, presumably.

 

Look. I imagine that the usual sfx, for most people, is that you consciously manipulate your flesh into a new form and hold it there by an act of will. A successful disguise roll, or the imitation adder allows you sufficient skill to do that in such a way that the original is copied, at least to the extent of your information.

 

Now I assume that if you bought a detect (Detect the form of the subject a DNA sample came from - what a 3 or 5 point detect, with maybe discriminatory, possibly but probably not - analyse), this would give you sufficient information to copy someone from a DNA sample, reasonably well. That is between 3 and 15 points. You can limit this pretty heavily because you do not need to be able to do anything but obtain a decent description, and you do not need the ability to be able to consciously understand this - just apply it to the power. So, somewhere in the 1-7 point range, I'd guess.

 

Are we agreed on that?

 

Now if SHIFTER is a normal woman, but has spent a great deal on shapeshift, and can shapeahift to pretty much every sense you can think of, and has cellular and imitation but no enhanced senses of her own, we are agreed that she can copy DNA.

 

The only explanation for that that I can think of, and noone has mentioned otherwise, is that she is getting sensory data about the appearance of the DNA from somewhere, in order to copy it. She probably does nto even realise this - it is probably entirely subconscious. It does however, require an 'enabling sense' that she gets through her shapeshift ability and for that purpose only, at least at an sfx level.

 

Are we agreed on that?

 

Now, being able to shapeshift to the degree that the game allows is actually impossible int he real world.

 

Are we agreed on that?

 

If we are in agreement, then we are doing something that is impossible anyway, with rules that are open to interpretation (they say NOTHING about copying mechanisms and where you can get your copy data from) that CAN imply senses that you don't have for the purpose of making the power work, and the cost of the benefit of being able to do this is miniscule.

 

Now, if I have the objections right here, the problem is that the 'implied sense' required to mimic the visual aspect of a target is 'greater' than the implied sense required to mimic the DNA, and so should be bought seperately.

 

My argument is that this is a cost/benefit point and is covered by the rules that sfx allow minor advantages and corresponding limtiations on a power.

 

You can't pick multiple methods to copy a target unless you buy the variable sfx advantage or buy a sense group more than once. So if you 'DNA copy, that is how you always copy. You knould know what the target LOOKS like intimately, but until you get a copy of their DNA you cannot shapeshift to look like them.

 

I see that as a balancing limitation. You may not. At the end of the day it is a decision for individual gamers - I don't think that either position is 'right', or rather they both are.

 

 

 

If you have a sample of the DNA, your copy can fol a third party intyo thinking you have the same DNA. It doesn't give you any idea what visual apearance to duplicate. If all you have is a photo, how accurately can you imitate the target's voice (sound) and body oror (smell)?

 

Turning that around, can you create a perfect visual and cellular copy from a telephone discussion or hearing the target on the radio?

 

Can a blind shapeshifter change to the shape of a target if the 'copy mechanism' is touch. Not, you know, running my fingers all over them to build up a picture - just 'touch'.

 

Is there anything wrong with copying visual appearance by smelling a target?

 

Can I define my shapeshift ability as working in this way: I control a demon of electricity who can zoom down a phone line and 'look' at the target then come back and programme my DNA to look like theirs, and alter my appearance too? Of course this would ONLY work down a phone line or similar.....

 

I mean, a GM who KNOWS the mechanism you use is not going to have problems - DNA at a crime scene may lead to the identification fo a target, or it may be contaminated by a third party, or a deliberate misdirection, or no DNA may be found at all.

 

The GM remains in control.

 

I'd say 'Job Done'.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

If I'm right then a sense' date=' of sorts, is implied by the power itself, at least as far as sfx goes, and we have already established that a 'sfx sense' is normal and allowable.[/quote']

In the sense that you're using the word "sense," yes. But such a sense is not a Sense in the game-mechanical sense, because it isn't providing any additional information.

 

The real leap of faith here comes with the ability to derive phenotype information froma genotype. Like I said, it won't be perfect in most cases, but I'm not seeing the problem.

The problem is that even the imperfect clone provides a very useful amount of information - that you haven't paid for and don't get by default.

 

The difference here, as I'm trying to get you to acknowledge, is that

shapeshift implies a sense that the base character may not otherwise possess, whereas attack powers etc generally do not. If the power works at all then it has to give you sensory data that you cuold obtain no other way.

And what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge is that the sensory data obtained is very useful, even if imperfect, and is therefore worth points (or at least a counter-balancing limitation, more on which later).

 

So is accurately copying the visual appearance of someone you can just see a picture of, without having to see them 'whole'. Can you do that with shapeshift? Presumably not...

Yes. The rest of the details that you fill in might not be correct, but assuming the picture is of the face (where the most important details are), it shouldn't be too much of a problem most of the time. You assume the guy's form wearing clothes, so if he has a tattoo that you don't know about, no one can see that it's missing. We can already easily identify people based on their faces. We can't identify people based on a bit of DNA. One is giving you sensory information that you already have, and the other is giving you sensory information that you don't already have.

 

If not necessarily being able to copy someone accurately enough to fool a third party is not a disadvantage then i'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

But it's not even in question that you can do that since you've bought the Imitation Adder.

 

I'm not saying you can't build it with a sense, I'm saying the information is goined through an imputed sense for the purposes of using the power only.

Yes, but then you can use that information gained for anything you want. That's why it's so useful.

 

Granted that the sense can be heavily limited (making it a lot cheaper) because it only works with the Shape Shift.

 

What a 'DNA clone sfx' shapeshift would do is allow you to turn into a more or less accurate copy of the original, without needing the sense. .... Mind you it would not let you change the hair colour, or length, or add a beard, or a bit of weight. Not without additional advantages or a slightly different build, but then you know that because I've said it already.

I say that it would let you change the hair color*, length, etc. - because you paid for Shape Shift. Just because you bought the Imitation and Cellular Adders doesn't mean you must only use it to copy people whose DNA you have. You can also Shape Shift into anything else that you've bought, real or imagined. Otherwise, that would be a limitation on the power.

 

You can even change the spelling!

 

Now I assume that if you bought a detect (Detect the form of the subject a DNA sample came from - what a 3 or 5 point detect, with maybe discriminatory, possibly but probably not - analyse), this would give you sufficient information to copy someone from a DNA sample, reasonably well. That is between 3 and 15 points.

22 points, according to UMM.

 

Now if SHIFTER is a normal woman, but has spent a great deal on shapeshift, and can shapeahift to pretty much every sense you can think of, and has cellular and imitation but no enhanced senses of her own, we are agreed that she can copy DNA.

Yes, but we're not agreed that she can copy a person from nothing but a sample of DNA.

 

My argument is that this is a cost/benefit point and is covered by the rules that sfx allow minor advantages and corresponding limtiations on a power.

And that's what I was saying before. I don't see this as a "minor" advantage, and I don't see the corresponding limitation. Then you say:

 

So if you 'DNA copy, that is how you always copy. You knould know what the target LOOKS like intimately, but until you get a copy of their DNA you cannot shapeshift to look like them.

 

I see that as a balancing limitation. You may not. At the end of the day it is a decision for individual gamers - I don't think that either position is 'right', or rather they both are.

Well, that I would see as a balancing limitation. However, the advantage and limitation in this case are major, nor minor, and I'd feel a lot more comfortable if they were actually built with points. "Requires a DNA sample" is a serious limitation for Shape Shift - a difficult to obtain, probably expendable focus. So you can't just Shape Shift into the person you're looking directly at, even if they're kind enough to take off their clothes and turn around slowly for you, even if you have X-Ray vision and can see all their internal organs. And not only that, but you can't Shape Shift into just any human form - you can't just imagine the image of what you want to look like.

 

Can I define my shapeshift ability as working in this way: I control a demon of electricity who can zoom down a phone line and 'look' at the target then come back and programme my DNA to look like theirs, and alter my appearance too? Of course this would ONLY work down a phone line or similar.....

And again, I'd consider this beyond the "minor" limitations and advantages. "Works down phone lines" is a significant advantage, and "Only works down phone lines" is a significant limitation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

In the sense that you're using the word "sense' date='" yes. But such a sense is not a Sense in the game-mechanical sense, because it isn't providing any additional information.[/quote']

 

Phil, we have to stop doing this because I am not going to write a brief explanatory note every time I use the word 'sense'. The context will usually tell you whetgher I am talking mechanics, sfx or common.

 

 

The problem is that even the imperfect clone provides a very useful amount of information - that you haven't paid for and don't get by default.

 

That depends entirely on the game you are playing in. In a 'detective' game, I'd agree that being able to instantly get a visual work up of someone from their DNA is useful, but, like I said, it is cheap to buy as a sense anyway, and if the particular sfx do not suit the particular game then they should not be allowed, but generally it is entirely balanced. In a lot of games (and this includes a lot of 'detective' games the ability to look exactly like someone without having to rely on GM generosity is going to be as or more useful.

 

 

And what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge is that the sensory data obtained is very useful, even if imperfect, and is therefore worth points (or at least a counter-balancing limitation, more on which later).

 

 

Yes. The rest of the details that you fill in might not be correct, but assuming the picture is of the face (where the most important details are), it shouldn't be too much of a problem most of the time. You assume the guy's form wearing clothes, so if he has a tattoo that you don't know about, no one can see that it's missing. We can already easily identify people based on their faces. We can't identify people based on a bit of DNA. One is giving you sensory information that you already have, and the other is giving you sensory information that you don't already have.

 

That depends if you have access to a DNA database. If you do, it is back to the GM to determine if the sample you have shows up on that and how much useful information you receive, just as (with this power and sfx) it would be up to the GM to determine if you get any useful information.

 

 

But it's not even in question that you can do that since you've bought the Imitation Adder.

 

Perfect copy, based on information available is what you paid for.

 

 

Yes, but then you can use that information gained for anything you want. That's why it's so useful.

 

Granted that the sense can be heavily limited (making it a lot cheaper) because it only works with the Shape Shift.

 

I have to keep coming back to 'this is a game in which the value of the information is determined by the GM' and 'there is nothing preventing this sfx in the mechanics' and 'Steve Long is OK with it' and allt he other stuff I said.

 

 

I say that it would let you change the hair color*, length, etc. - because you paid for Shape Shift. Just because you bought the Imitation and Cellular Adders doesn't mean you must only use it to copy people whose DNA you have. You can also Shape Shift into anything else that you've bought, real or imagined. Otherwise, that would be a limitation on the power.

 

You can even change the spelling!

 

That is my point though - you can't. you have to decide how your power works and, unless you spend more points to make it work differently, or the GM allows you to 'power trick' it always works the same way.

 

You might decide that you need physical contact with someone to copy them (from their aura) but you do not need to actually see them. Seeing them would not let you copy them, touching them would. It is just another sfx, another source of the necessary information that you need to achieve the shapeshift.

 

 

22 points' date=' according to UMM.[/quote']

 

Presumably not using the simulated sense rule? If you do, and you don't need the information instantly, you can pay as little as 3 or 5 points.

 

 

Yes, but we're not agreed that she can copy a person from nothing but a sample of DNA.

 

 

And that's what I was saying before. I don't see this as a "minor" advantage, and I don't see the corresponding limitation. Then you say:

 

 

Well, that I would see as a balancing limitation. However, the advantage and limitation in this case are major, nor minor, and I'd feel a lot more comfortable if they were actually built with points. "Requires a DNA sample" is a serious limitation for Shape Shift - a difficult to obtain, probably expendable focus. So you can't just Shape Shift into the person you're looking directly at, even if they're kind enough to take off their clothes and turn around slowly for you, even if you have X-Ray vision and can see all their internal organs. And not only that, but you can't Shape Shift into just any human form - you can't just imagine the image of what you want to look like.

 

 

And again, I'd consider this beyond the "minor" limitations and advantages. "Works down phone lines" is a significant advantage, and "Only works down phone lines" is a significant limitation.

 

The problem with this, I think, is the fact that you don;t need an 'original' present to copy them. Of course, given recording technology, you don't need to have an original present, or ever have met the original, to copy them.

 

Now I can agree that the 'I can only copy someone communicating with me through an electronic device' is a real problem for a character in (most) fantasy campaigns, but these days it is probably no more difficult than meeting them face to face, or getting their picture.

 

The sfx can have a significant effect on the way in which the power is used, but that is not necessarily a problem. I respect your concerns and would not seek to persuade you that they are unfounded: I think it depends ont eh game.

 

What I am sure of though is that sfx should be properly defined, as fully as possible, to allow in-game implementation of powers in game in a consistent manner.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this?

 

Phil' date=' we have to stop doing this because I am not going to write a brief explanatory note every time I use the word 'sense'. The context will usually tell you whetgher I am talking mechanics, sfx or common.[/quote']

What are you talking about!? You don't have to explain it, it was perfectly clear. Did I not interpret your post correctly?

 

That depends entirely on the game you are playing in. In a 'detective' game, I'd agree that being able to instantly get a visual work up of someone from their DNA is useful,

And what other type of game could we possibly be talking about where we want to assume a specific form of a person whose DNA we have? Such an ability would *only* be used in a detective-type context (regardless of genre). It wouldn't even occur to anyone to have any need to assume the shape of just some random person whose DNA you happen to stumble across but have no real interest in. If that's what we're talking about then the ability has no significant usefulness and therefore I would let players have it for free.

 

but, like I said, it is cheap to buy as a sense anyway,

Do I smell munchkinry? Cheap is not the same as free. It's cheap to buy an extra Skill Level, so maybe the GM should just let me have it for free.

 

and if the particular sfx do not suit the particular game then they should not be allowed, but generally it is entirely balanced.

No. Giving free points is not balanced. Giving a few free points is unbalanced. Giving a lot of free points is even more unbalanced.

 

In a lot of games (and this includes a lot of 'detective' games the ability to look exactly like someone without having to rely on GM generosity is going to be as or more useful.

But you shouldn't have to rely on GM generosity when you can spell out explicitly what your power does in the rules. There's a default set of abilities/applications for each power, you buy an Advantage or additional power if you want to do more than that, and you take a Limitation if you want to do less than that. If you want to do more in some way and less in some other way, then you do both.

 

That depends if you have access to a DNA database.

Please don't change the subject. We're not talking about a DNA lab with a database of DNA to compare the sample to. We're talking about a Shapeshifting character with a DNA sample from some unknown person. He has no ability to determine who the sample came from, unless he buys that ability. OTOH, if he has a picture of the person's face, he can identify the person. It's not the same thing.

 

Perfect copy, based on information available is what you paid for.

Right. And you should get what you pay for. If you can't make a perfect copy, then don't pay for that ability. What's the problem?

 

That is my point though - you can't. you have to decide how your power works and, unless you spend more points to make it work differently, or the GM allows you to 'power trick' it always works the same way.

Yes, you can, because you paid for it! You decide how your power works by *buying* it, with all the advantages and limitations and additional powers you want. You then get the precise abilities that you've purchased. You can't just buy a particular power and then "decide" that it works a different way than the rules state. If your power doesn't work the way you want, then you've built it wrong.

 

And yes, the GM is free to run his game by handwaving everything and not using the points and power modifiers at all. I assume for the purposes of this discussion, that we're actually staying within the guidelines of the system and building our powers precisely as HERO allows us to do.

 

The problem with this, I think, is the fact that you don;t need an 'original' present to copy them.

I don't see why that's a "problem". That's the way Shapeshift works by default. If you can't copy someone without them being present, that's worth a Limitation. Go ahead and take the Limitation.

 

The sfx can have a significant effect on the way in which the power is used,

And to the extend that they do, they should be modeled correctly with appropriate builds, not just hand-waved away.

 

What I am sure of though is that sfx should be properly defined, as fully as possible, to allow in-game implementation of powers in game in a consistent manner.

Yes, and not just defined, but constructed accurately using the elements of the system.