Delaying an opponent

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Delaying an opponent

 

Hugh, tesuji, and Doc are correct that the RAW is a little bit broken in some cases. Better is the "when both speeds would have gotten a phase" rule.

 

A more accurate method (which resolves *all* speed changing problems but requires a little more work) is to keep a running total of "speed points" (for lack of a better term). Each segment, a character gets speed points equal to his SPD. Whenever that number gets to 12 or higher, he gets an action and subtracts 12 from his running total. If his SPD changes mid-turn, you simply add the new appropriate number of SPD points on each segment and continue the same way.

 

For eaxample, MorphMan is SPD 4 normally, but changes to SPD 5 during segment 5.

 

Seg Speed Points
1     4
2     8
3    12 Action! -12 = 0
4     4
5 SPD increases to 5, so now has 9 speed points
6    14 Action! -12 = 2
7     7
8    12 Action! -12 = 0
9     5
10  10
11  15 Action! -12 = 3
12   8
etc.

 

If the Speed Demon (SPD 8 normally) is drained down to SPD 3 (by the Speed Limit Enforcer) in segment 7:

Seg Speed Points
1     8
2    16 Action! -12 = 4
3    12 Action! -12 = 0
4     8
5    16 Action! -12 = 4
6    12 Action! -12 = 0
7 Let's assume the Drain takes place after Speed Demon's DEX would have come up, so he gets his normal 8 speed points this time, but will get only 3 per segment hereafter.
8    11
9    14 Action! -12 = 2
10   5
11   8
12  11 ooh, almost!
Recover 5 cp of the Drain, this doesn't give him back a point of SPD
1    14 Action! -12 = 2
2     5
3     8
etc.

[Willpower]

Re: Delaying an opponent

 

You could always go with some form of entangle. Maybe a mental entangle would work, or just one bought with Invisible power effects and transparent to attack. That doesn't fully work for the effects in CoH, but Hero doesn't do those types of effects so hot. Even something with added dice only to Stun, will only get rid of one action, IF you stun them. Where as in CoH a stunning attack can take someone out for a bit of time. Particularly with adders that increase the stun time. Something like what you are talking about really requires some sort of D20-like Save system, and Hero isn't built that way.

 

Though one could be jury rigged though. You could work up something like Dimensional travel usable as an attack to send someone for a different dimension. Say the dimension is lose to ours, and so you can still see the person, (though you wouldn't really be able to affect them) and returned them to our dimension several rounds later. Slap on a Ego, or a Con roll, and attach an effect to that, like if they miss they are in the other dimension for 1full phase, if they miss by more than 2, they are there for 2 phases, and if they succeed they don't go.

 

That same thing could also be done with Mind Control, one telepathic command, only to stand perectly still. Or even a Transform. These two give the added benefit of allowing you to interac with the person too.

 

Don't know if this helps or not, but those are my ideas on it.

 

 

Been playing City of Heroes again, and several of the powers there incapacitate an opponent in some way, stunning them temporarily or knocking them down, so that they cannot attack for a few moments.

 

Struck me that Hero does not have a ‘direct’ way of delaying someone in that way. Sure you can build a power with (+xd6: only for stunning), but that does not feel right.

 

So, here’s a thought:

 

Delay Adder

 

The delay adder comes in three flavours,

 

1. The target hesitates, taking their action at ½ their normal DEX: 5 points

2. The target is distracted, and loses their next ½ phase action: 10 points (MAGNIFYING GLASS)

3. The target is delayed and loses their next full phase action: 20 points (STOP)

 

Each adder is attached to an attack power, and the delay takes place simultaneously with any other result of the attack. The attack must have an actual effect, specified at the time of creation, to cause the delay (for example the delay might occur when a target takes KB, or damage, of a particular level of effect from a mental power. Just hitting is NOT enough).

 

Now we can kinda do that in hero with adjustment powers, but it is a bit convoluted, and this seemed like a neater solution.

 

Maybe there is a better way though, without new rules? Thoughts?

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Delaying an opponent

 

Every ruling or suggestion I've seen on Speed Drains makes me want to disallow them entirely. The effect on someone of getting hit with a Speed drain after they aborted their phase to Dodge is just too annoying to contemplate. I can't imagine using this power as a GM and using it as a player is even harder to justify.

 

I should say I can imagine it, and the thought makes me shudder.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying an opponent

 

So for causing a delay to an opponent, PRE attacks, however you build them, don't work so well as they get less effective with each use.

 

Entangles make very little sense because physical ones can be largely ignored by strong characters and mental ones by characters with Ego Attack, which is a poor conceptual fit.

 

Adjustment powers don't make a lot of sense either unless you are astonishingly careful about how they are built and defended against in your game: power defence is the most nonsensical defence of all, given the utterly vast number of different concepts that it is defending against.

 

BTW the way I deal with speed change is this, which I think is how the book MEANS it: you change speed down instantly, and can only have your next phase on a phase when both your original and new speeds could ahve acted. For this purpose you can hold actions at either speed. Words in italics are my own, the rest is a quote from memory fromt he book.

 

That never, IME, results in an accidental speeding up, nor in you losing more than one phase for each point of SPD drained.

[Zorak1003]

Re: Delaying an opponent

 

"Every ruling or suggestion I've seen on Speed Drains makes me want to disallow them entirely. The effect on someone of getting hit with a Speed drain after they aborted their phase to Dodge is just too annoying to contemplate. I can't imagine using this power as a GM and using it as a player is even harder to justify."

 

In 24 years of playing the HERO System, I have never used a SPD Drain. It really just seems like an odd, clunky way to slow someone, and sort of abusive to the system.

[Ultraman]

Re: Delaying an opponent

 

I have not played COH in a while, so I may be wrong, but I thought stunning in COH dropped your toggles, which is similar to the effect in Hero, so I’m not really sure how what your trying to simulate is different than being stunned in Hero. Having said that, being stunned in COH does not seem like quite like the death sentence as it is in HERO, although I think this is largely because, as stated earlier, stunning someone in Hero normally means they have very little stun left, in COH you may have a bunch of health left after the hit that stuns you. If you started adding extra damage only to stun in your campaign, these stuns would start to come when the characters still had stun left to them.

 

You may just add a new mechanic or power called daze that causes a character to lose part or all of there action based on damage, or dice in the new power. If a character takes damage equal to x% of their CON (or EGO) they are dazed and lose ½ a phase, but their DCV and non-persistent powers are not affected. You could have multiple levels as you suggested, but multiple dazes should not stack.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Delaying an opponent

 

Having said that' date=' being stunned in COH does not seem like quite like the death sentence as it is in HERO, although I think this is largely because, as stated earlier, stunning someone in Hero normally means they have very little stun left, in COH you may have a bunch of health left after the hit that stuns you. [/Quote']

 

That is a design consideration of players and GMs though.

 

To STUN someone you have to do the equivalent of their CON in STUN after application of defences.

 

If a player decides to have CON 28 and STUN 35 then that is their decision and for the GM to insist on either lower CONs or higher STUNs if he does not wish that kind of thing to happen.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying an opponent

 

I have not played COH in a while' date=' so I may be wrong, but I thought stunning in COH dropped your toggles, which is similar to the effect in Hero, so I’m not really sure how what your trying to simulate is different than being stunned in Hero. Having said that, being stunned in COH does not seem like quite like the death sentence as it is in HERO, although I think this is largely because, as stated earlier, stunning someone in Hero normally means they have very little stun left, in COH you may have a bunch of health left after the hit that stuns you. If you started adding extra damage only to stun in your campaign, these stuns would start to come when the characters still had stun left to them. [/font']

 

You may just add a new mechanic or power called daze that causes a character to lose part or all of there action based on damage, or dice in the new power. If a character takes damage equal to x% of their CON (or EGO) they are dazed and lose ½ a phase, but their DCV and non-persistent powers are not affected. You could have multiple levels as you suggested, but multiple dazes should not stack.

 

You are right about dropping toggles, but the 'feel' of a CoH 'stun' and a Hero one are quite different - your comment about the 'death sentence' being apposite. In Hero, unless the stunned character has a speed advantage, or a suitable sistraction, being stunned is usually the end of the fight, even if you don;t actually fall over for a phase or two.

 

Also KB powers in CoH seem to delay the target without dropping toggles.

 

Still, this is a bit of a specific case and I'm sure I can handwave it if necessary.