PRE Attacks for scary creatures

[swobeas]

Hi!

 

I have been wondering how you guys handle PRE Attacks for scary creatures like the undead.

 

A Skeleton, or Zombie for example gets a PRE of 13 in the Bestiary, for a 2 1/2 d6 PRE Attack. Not very scary in my eyes

 

The roll should of course be modified (like appropriate setting in a dark dungeon), but I am thinking of an extra power for critters like that:

+ 10 PRE, offensive use only (-1/2).

 

What do you think?

And do you grant the +1d6 bonus to the PRE Attack for "revealing" a power like beeing undead?

[L. Marcus]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

Against an average couch potato (EGO and PRE about eightish), a skellie would have a reasonable chance of getting to act before that person in a common Phase -- and that's not to be sneered at!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

Several ways to handle this without pumping up the PRE of undead.

 

1st, all normals should have the following Psychological Limitation. Its an Everyman Psych Lim, meaning just about everybody should have it.

 

Fear of Dead stuff that moves:

uncommon, strong.10pts.

 

Once someone realises they are facing an Undead, the undead gets the following bonuses.

 

PRE Attack Agrees with Psych Lim (strong) +2D6

Zombie eating brains (extremely violent action) +3D6

"He's...He's...DEAD! (target surprised) +1D6

Reputation: walking dead: varies

The dead aren't supposed to walk! (exibiting a power...the ability to move and eat brains beyond the grave) +1D6

 

So a proper Zombie with a PRE of 13 (2 1/2D6) should get a PRE attack of around 6 1/2D6, or 9 1/2D6 while actively eating brains!

[Zed-F]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

Skeletons and Zombies, properly, aren't very scary to even modestly experienced heroes. Most of them have seen weirder stuff before. It's when you get to the really scary stuff that things start to hit the fan as far as fear factor goes. If you want scary undead, pick ones that have a high PRE score to start with.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

Skeletons and Zombies' date=' properly, aren't very scary to even modestly experienced heroes. Most of them have seen weirder stuff before. It's when you get to the really scary stuff that things start to hit the fan as far as fear factor goes. If you want scary undead, pick ones that have a high PRE score to start with. [/quote']

 

I think the original point was that at only 2 1/2D6 PRE attack dice, that a Skeleton or Zombie (lowest on the totem pole of undead freakishness) is hardpressed to scare even an average guy with a PRE/EGO of 8-10. Certainly your average HERO won't be put off by a single Zombie or Skele, but a couple of dozen should give just about anyone pause. And I don't care how experienced you are...if you walk up on a zombie eating brains and he turns those dead eyes toward you and silently screams at you with a mouth full of man-flesh, you're going to crap your tights.....

[Fitz]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

I think the point about the modifiers an undead critter should get to its PRE attack just by nature of being a Hideous Abomination From Beyond The Grave is well made.

 

I had a similar issue when I went to build some demons (based roughly on those in Fred Saberhagen's Empire of the East). They were supposed to be frightening just to be near, so I gave them an AoE Suppress PRE (always on) and the ability to Drain PRE as well, if they put their minds to being extra awe-ful. It makes them pretty nasty opponents if they survive the first few Phases; once your Mighty Warrior starts having to make heavily-penalized PRE rolls to do anything offensive, he becomes a lot less Mighty.

 

Of course, that means that anybody with pretensions to Mightiness is going to take the Fearless talent, but there you go. If they're willing to spend their character points on not being scared by things that would reduce normal people to jelly, fair enough.

[sbarron]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

I agree with the Nu Soard and Fitz. So let me say the same thing a little differently. I'd just make it a setting feature that undead get +10 PRE for offense. If you want characters to find them scary in your setting, then you should just make it so. That +10 PRE plus some situational mods should make PRE +10 effects pretty likely.

 

This is actually my new answer to almost everything. People spend too much time trying to find a way to bend the rules to their games, time which could no doubt be better spent on something else. If you want something, just make it a feature of the setting, create your rules for it, and move on. Work on modeling Golden Skans or something.

[薔薇語]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

... so I gave them an AoE Suppress PRE (always on) and the ability to Drain PRE as well' date=' if they put their minds to being extra awe-ful...[/quote']

 

I can't remember the exact build, just that it was expensive(although I don't worry about points for NPC's and just build as I see fit). It was suppose to be a demon incarnation of Fear to whoms mere presence drove normal men insane. Although I don't have the write up anymore it read something like :

 

Suppress 3d6 (standard effect: 9 points), Difficult To Dispel (x2 Active Points; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Explosion (-1 DC/10"; +2 3/4) (94 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (succede a EGO roll by 4+; -1/4)

 

At the time, the highest defensed character to this was 5points so it did its job well. And allowed for good ego rolls to deny it. But then again I didn't mean for the hero group to run into it untill much later in the campaign. But player parties never seem to do as you tell them!

 

La Rose

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

 

This is actually my new answer to almost everything. People spend too much time trying to find a way to bend the rules to their games, time which could no doubt be better spent on something else. If you want something, just make it a feature of the setting, create your rules for it, and move on. Work on modeling Golden Skans or something.

 

Sho nuff!

[MorpheousXO]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

yup, don't need to detail every nook and sharp edge, just get the idea of what you want it to do, and do it.

[Maur]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

Given that there are many ways to build up various powers that give similar effects, but drastic difference in costs, it probably is better to just try to build it how you want and not worry about the actual cost of the NPC.

 

Just from pure luck of the dice we had a 225pt character beat a 580pt NPC in just over two of his phases.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

A lot of it depenson the setting. If you want to do Dark Horror Fantasy, then undead creatures should be mind-blastingly horrifying to all but the most experienced PCs.

 

However, if you want to do D&D or Console RPG-style fantasy, skeletons and zombies are just additional sources of Experience Points. They're something the game sets after you so you can build up your power for the REAL bad guys, like somewhat worse-smelling orcs (if that's possible....)

[Pavanne]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

I think you've got it. Just declare that undead freak everyone out, and then decide if it happens because in YOUR world they have higher PRE than the book, or if it's PRE, Only To Attack, or if it's just your house rules.

 

Whatever works...

[Fitz]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

The problem with just hand-waving the effect like that is that you start to run into problems with building countermeasures. Say you want to create a necklace that will bolster one's courage enough to face skeletons or zombies unimpaired, but isn't powerful enough to deal with the fear aura of a wight or a demon? Sure, you could just hand-wave that too, but then you start down the road to D&D-ization, and the whole value of using a point-based construction system is lost.

[sbarron]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

Say you want to create a necklace that will bolster one's courage enough to face skeletons or zombies unimpaired' date=' but isn't powerful enough to deal with the fear aura of a wight or a demon? Sure, you could just hand-wave that too, but then you start down the road to D&D-ization, and the whole value of using a point-based construction system is lost.[/quote']You just created a necklace that has a set effect, immune to fear of skeletons and zombies. You can't build this unless you A) handwave and just say its so (like D&D), or 2) make it +50 PRE for Defense, only vs. skeletons and zombies (like Hero), to ensure that the dice never undermine the power of the necklace.

 

Personally, I'd be tempted to handwave this since it is a set effect on a specific item I allowed into the game. It's not like I have to worry about how the Necklace of Naboo will get used in my supers game. If a character is wearing the Necklace of Naboo, he doesn't have to worry about skeletons or zombies scaring him with PRE attacks. Simple and effective, I think. YMMV.

[Fitz]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

OK, so how would you handle it when some practical joker decides to Suppress or Dispel the Necklace of Naboo's power? Handwave that too?

 

This is at the very core of my objection to handwavium. It inevitably creates situations where the GM (and, to a lesser extent the players) has to start running the game by arbitrary fiat, because there are no objective measurements to work by.

 

I'm not saying it should never be done; it's often a good way to keep the game moving. But any object or situation which is going to have a recurring role in the game needs to be properly defined so that everyone knows where they are with it. It's not neccessary to do it in the middle of play (which would be a royal pain) but it should be taken care of as soon as possible.

[sbarron]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

OK, so how would you handle it when some practical joker decides to Suppress or Dispel the Necklace of Naboo's power? Handwave that too?

 

This is at the very core of my objection to handwavium. It inevitably creates situations where the GM (and, to a lesser extent the players) has to start running the game by arbitrary fiat, because there are no objective measurements to work by.

 

I'm not saying it should never be done; it's often a good way to keep the game moving. But any object or situation which is going to have a recurring role in the game needs to be properly defined so that everyone knows where they are with it. It's not neccessary to do it in the middle of play (which would be a royal pain) but it should be taken care of as soon as possible.

We're basically in agreement on this issue. I think there is a place for handwaving in HERO. And not just for on-the-spot calls to be better defined later, but always. Players in my games (hopefully) will be too busy adventuring to worry about trying to figure out how to suppress specific magic items that aren't mechanically well defined.

 

If players want to break the game system, they are certainly able to if I allow them to do what they want in my game. Therefore, it's key that I don't allow them to do whatever they want. I can only allow them to do what fits the setting I've imagined. And it's easy enough to create handwaved rules that make it so the Necklace of Naboo can't be suppressed willy-nilly.

 

But that's really not my point here. My point is only that I think GMs shouldn't be afraid to create hard rules not based in the system if it achieves a desired effect simply and easily, without the headaches involved in trying to shoehorn their ideas into the mold of the canon Hero system rules. The rules are helpful, but they are not the end all of gaming. I'd like to see more Hero gamers be willing to think outside the box. Then their imagination will truely be the only limit on their games.

[input.jack]

Re: PRE Attacks for scary creatures

 

Wheres the "hand wave"??

 

"Only vs. PRE Attacks by Lesser Undead" (or even "Skeletons and Zombies" specifically) is a viable Power Limitation.