Looking for a fair Limitation value

[Greywind]

I'm fiddling with an empathic healer. Lay on hands. Do the healing. Literally, take the wound onto themselves.

 

How much of a limitation would you all think that "Must take Body equal to amount healed" would be worth?

[JimLotFP]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

I'm fiddling with an empathic healer. Lay on hands. Do the healing. Literally, take the wound onto themselves.

 

How much of a limitation would you all think that "Must take Body equal to amount healed" would be worth?

 

Let's see how my HERO-fu is developing...

 

This is a Side Effect limitation... I'd think it's -1 3/4 looking at the Side Effects Table...

 

It's a Drain equal to the original Heal so that's a -1 base Extreme Side Effect limitation. x2 because it takes effect anytime the power is used... 1/4th less limitation because Side Effect has a pre-determined effect (to be the same as the Heal, never more...)... equaling the -1 3/4.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

I'm fiddling with an empathic healer. Lay on hands. Do the healing. Literally, take the wound onto themselves.

 

How much of a limitation would you all think that "Must take Body equal to amount healed" would be worth?

I would run it as Side Effect: NND Does Body damage equal to the amount healed, Side Effect always occurs when the power is used. (-2) Just my mindset.

 

How does the empathic healer heal himself; naturally or some quicker way? If the empathic healer has to heal the wounds with time, then I'd give him the full limitation. If he has regeneration ( or even another self-only Healing ability ), I would drop the value of the Limitation based on how fast he regenerates.

[Greywind]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

How does the empathic healer heal himself; naturally or some quicker way? If the empathic healer has to heal the wounds with time' date=' then I'd give him the full limitation. If he has regeneration ( or even another self-only Healing ability ), I would drop the value of the Limitation based on how fast he regenerates.[/quote']

I don't agree with this. Depending on how big the wound is, it can be seriously detrimental to the user's continued existence. I don't see the ability to come back from it a bit quicker than normal as limiting to the power build.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

I don't agree with this. Depending on how big the wound is' date=' it can be seriously detrimental to the user's continued existence. I don't see the ability to come back from it a bit quicker than normal as limiting to the power build.[/quote']Say that the empathic Healer has 12 Body. She heals somebody of 7 Body. Assuming her Rec is around 5, it is going to take her over a month to get that Body back at regular healing rate. If she has a Regeneration (or other Heal Self Only) ability, that timeframe shifts drastically. While taking 7 Body is dangerous no matter how you slice it, losing 7 Body for a matter of weeks is a lot more impairing than for a few moments, hours, etc.

 

If I were building the power, I would subtract 1/2 Limitation (putting it at -1 1/2) if she Regenerated per hour. Any quicker than that and I would cap the Limitation at -1. Those are pretty arbitrary numbers and it depends greatly on your campaign tone. You may keep the Limitation at full value for some sort of Hourly regeneration. She gets a good night sleep, and she's good to go. In that case, you start trimming off the Limitation value for 20 Minutes, 5 Minute, 1 Minute, and per Turn. I would lower the Limitation value by 1/4 per step on the Time Chart in that case.

 

Pretty much though, it is up to you or your GM. If there is a sense of Dramatic scenes with large times between them, for instance, your GM may rule that the Month (and then some) it takes to Recover is irrelevant to the action at hand. I was only offering what I consider a "fair Limitation value." The term "fair" is greatly subjective and depends on your campaign tone and rules.

 

In any event, I've always thought Empathic Healing was a cool concept but was always a little leery of trying it myself with a character. Kudos to you for using an interesting idea. Good luck and have fun.

[CourtFool]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

I don't agree with this.

 

I agree with nolgroth. Recovering quicker does lessen the Limitation as does having a substantially higher BODY to soak up the damage. Yes, it could kill the character. Then again, the character will probably not try to heal someone who has sustained enough damage to be deadly.

[McCoy]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

I don't agree with this. Depending on how big the wound is' date=' it can be seriously detrimental to the user's continued existence. I don't see the ability to come back from it a bit quicker than normal as limiting to the power build.[/quote']

You don't see the difference between a power you can use again in a few minutes and one that it takes you weeks to recover from using?

 

nolgroth's right. Limitations are not determined in a vacuum, but if they are limiting to the character overall.

[CourtFool]

Rules Lawyers

 

...but the book says...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

You don't see the difference between a power you can use again in a few minutes and one that it takes you weeks to recover from using?

 

Let's assume the character will recover all lost BOD in one minute. Just one little minute.

 

What's the limitation for "extra time - 1 minute" again?

 

Now, maybe the Empathic Healing limitation should reasonably be worth a bit less - it can be used and have its effect without delay, after all. On the other hand, it leaves the user down BOD for that minute, which creates its own dangers.

 

A Side Effect could reasonably be build as a BOD Drain - that would recover 5 points each PS 12, which is also pretty fast recovery. In fact, if it were downgraded to once a week (equivalent of a 10 REC getting back 20 CP per month), it would be a pretty high end side effect, wouldn't it?

 

Sure, I see a difference between an effect that lasts a few minutes and one that lasts a few weeks. Do you see that, by the book, the limitation value for one that recovers after a few minutes is already very high? An even greater limitation seems apppropriate if it takes weeks to recover, doesn't it?

[Nolgroth]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

Sure' date=' I see a difference between an effect that lasts a few minutes and one that lasts a few weeks. Do you see that, by the book, the limitation value for one that recovers after a few minutes is already very high? An even greater limitation seems apppropriate if it takes weeks to recover, doesn't it?[/quote']Depends on the nature and tone of the campaign. When building this kind of power, I would assume natural healing rates as the baseline. If the power slowed healing even more than REC per Month, then yeah, I'd increase the Limitation value. Shortens the healing rate, reduce the Limitation.

 

Now, if I chose to base the natural recovery rate on some sort of magical healing rate (probably some campaign guideline on Max Healing or something) then it may be a little different. Extending the healing rate outward towards natural recovery would increase the Limitation value.

 

Again, what's good for one campaign may not necessarily be good for another. One of the dangers of asking somebody here on the boards for a rules opinion is that we posters each have our own ideas on how to implement the rules for our campaigns.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

Depends on the nature and tone of the campaign. When building this kind of power' date=' I would assume natural healing rates as the baseline. If the power slowed healing even more than REC per Month, then yeah, I'd increase the Limitation value. Shortens the healing rate, reduce the Limitation.[/quote']

 

So a side effect that knocks of STUN is OK recovering in a minute or so, but a side effect that causes the power user to take BOD needs to recover over weeks or months to be "equally limiting"?

 

What period would you require for a side effect that drains, say, STR or CON, rather than a stat normally affected by REC?

 

Most side effects have a fairly rapid rate of recovery by default, so the power can be used again fairly quickly. If a power has a side effect with a significantly longer recovery period, I'd say that merits a higher limitation, as the power will practically not be usable as frequently.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

For these reasons, I only allow Drains to count half their Active Points toward Side Effects.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

For these reasons' date=' I only allow Drains to count half their Active Points toward Side Effects.[/quote']

 

Seems reasonable in that a Stun side effect is not dissimilar from a Stun drain, other than a bit different recovery. You probably have a REC better than 5, but the Drain recovers even when you can't.

 

Even so, a 6d6 BOD drain will recover a lot faster than a 1 1/2d6 KA worth of BOD with no defenses.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

I might also consider lowering the lim value if the healer has a really high BODY (which is probably not the case here, but what's 7 BODY to a healing giant who starts with 50?).

[Greywind]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

14%

[Nolgroth]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

So a side effect that knocks of STUN is OK recovering in a minute or so' date=' but a side effect that causes the power user to take BOD needs to recover over weeks or months to be "equally limiting"?[/quote']Yes.

 

What period would you require for a side effect that drains, say, STR or CON, rather than a stat normally affected by REC?

Draining CON or STR is not as immediately deadly by nature, as losing BODY. I'm not sure of the point. If the victim that is being Healed is suffering a short term STR drain, there is no point in Healing them. If they are suffering BODY done by wounds, then without the Healing, they would get back the BODY by normal healing. Why should the person Healing them get a break?

 

Most side effects have a fairly rapid rate of recovery by default, so the power can be used again fairly quickly. If a power has a side effect with a significantly longer recovery period, I'd say that merits a higher limitation, as the power will practically not be usable as frequently.

And I think the opposite. If the "default" setting is too much of a difficulty, then one takes a lesser Limitation to speed things up.

 

I see us getting into "agreeing to disagree" territory. I see your points and understand the metagaming aspects of your argument. I just don't agree with them. On the other hand, I will always promote the concept of do what's right for your campaign. So if it works for you to shorten the interval in this case, please do. As long as you have fun, you're doing it right.

[Zorak1003]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

I have to agree that if you're taking this as a BODY Drain Side Effect, take the limitation at face value, never mind how the character deals with the damage. The limit is on the POWER, not on the entire character- Such things as that are Disadvantages. If the damage the healer takes prevents him from using it even once during a single combat, that's all you really need to worry about..

 

Though if he has regeneration to the extant that it doesn't affect his use of the power AT ALL, then you might as well just make it a special effect and take no limit on it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

Draining CON or STR is not as immediately deadly by nature' date=' as losing BODY. I'm not sure of the point. If the victim that is being Healed is suffering a short term STR drain, there is no point in Healing them. If they are suffering BODY done by wounds, then without the Healing, they would get back the BODY by normal healing. Why should the person Healing them get a break?[/quote']

 

Sorry, I must not have been clear. My question was directed at the side effect, not the power. We've discussed an empath healing BOD and taking BOD as a consequence. What if the character heals BOD, and suffers weakness (a decline in STR) as a consequence? How quickly should that recover? You've already indicated that, if the healer suffers STUN due to using her BOD healing power, that STUN should recover quickly. And, if she suffers BOD, that BOD should heal slower. What if she suffers a reduction to some other stat?

 

And I think the opposite. If the "default" setting is too much of a difficulty' date=' then one takes a lesser Limitation to speed things up. [/quote']

 

Now we get into what the default is. I see very few characters with powers that cause BOD damage each time they are used. Perhaps the reason is that the general default for such side effects is that they heal rapidly. Only BOD injury heals slowly, and most games seem to create a kludge to permit BOD damage to heal more quickly, whether Healing spells in fantasy, AutoDoc's and Bacta tanks in Sci Fi or long breaks between scenarios in modern genres.

 

I also believe one has to look at what the power which has been Limited would have accomplished absent that limitation. Without the limitation, our Healer could heal everyone in the combat over the course of a turn or so, and suffered no real risk beyond losing an attack action to use the healing power. If the power reduces the healer's BOD or STUN (or SR, or DEX) temporarily, either reduction will cause a much reduced use of the Healing power, at least in combat. Extending recovery for one over months while letting the other recover in under a minute, seems unbalanced to me unless the one with the longer recovery generates a greater limitation - it is limiting the use of the Healing power to a greater extent.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

Sorry' date=' I must not have been clear. My question was directed at the side effect, not the power. We've discussed an empath healing BOD and taking BOD as a consequence. What if the character heals BOD, and suffers weakness (a decline in STR) as a consequence? How quickly should that recover? You've already indicated that, if the healer suffers STUN due to using her BOD healing power, that STUN should recover quickly. And, if she suffers BOD, that BOD should heal slower. What if she suffers a reduction to some other stat?[/quote']Then it would not be "Empathic Healing" as we know it. I see the Drain of STR as a perfectly valid Side Effect with the normal recovery. I even see the extension of that Recovery time as a valid method of increasing the Limitation value. I can almost hear you saying "huh?" HERO has a built in mechanic for recovering Stun vs recovering Body. If a character takes Stun, they at least get a Recovery every post-12 so they are getting back stun quite rapidly. Naturally healing Body is Rec per month. By tweaking the time frame, you are adjusting the basic metagaming concepts of the system. The choice of what Limitation to take usually falls on the player. The approval of that Limitation should be within the GM's power. As I've said before, if your campaign says "Empathy Healer can remove all the damage from another character and in turn heal it all back in a few minutes for a -2 Limitation" then go with that. A -2 Limitation in my mind is much more Limiting than that and I see that as a runaround the rules. I would not approve of a Body DRAIN vs a Body damaging attack in such cases.

 

Now we get into what the default is. I see very few characters with powers that cause BOD damage each time they are used. Perhaps the reason is that the general default for such side effects is that they heal rapidly. Only BOD injury heals slowly, and most games seem to create a kludge to permit BOD damage to heal more quickly, whether Healing spells in fantasy, AutoDoc's and Bacta tanks in Sci Fi or long breaks between scenarios in modern genres.

In campaigns that have the kludge of fast Body recovery, Empathic Healing seems pretty useless to me. If EH can lay on hands, take the damage from another, and then hop in a bacta tank, then the Limitation would be way less. Why not just throw Skippy the wounded wookie in the bacta tank to begin with? Maybe the EH can take just enough to stop Skippy from bleeding to death and then he gets thrown in the bacta tank later. Since EH has a similar option, then I would drop the Limitation value to -1/2 or maybe a little more.

 

I also believe one has to look at what the power which has been Limited would have accomplished absent that limitation. Without the limitation, our Healer could heal everyone in the combat over the course of a turn or so, and suffered no real risk beyond losing an attack action to use the healing power. If the power reduces the healer's BOD or STUN (or SR, or DEX) temporarily, either reduction will cause a much reduced use of the Healing power, at least in combat. Extending recovery for one over months while letting the other recover in under a minute, seems unbalanced to me unless the one with the longer recovery generates a greater limitation - it is limiting the use of the Healing power to a greater extent.

And conversely, if one takes a "Healing causes damage to self" type Limitation in a world where there are other rapid Healing methods, it means less. In a pure metagaming sense, Body in HERO means little in combat other than how much lethal damage you can take. Stun, Strength, Con, END, Ego and a few other stats have an immediate detriment to how the character performs in combat. The same value in the Limitation reflects that. If a character uses Empathic Healing to staunch the flow of blood for a single Body point, then they can still run at full combat ability. They are a little more vulnerable I admit, but the dice aren't affected. If they lose a large number of points in something like DEX or Stun, then they may well be out for the rest of combat. The loss of even one group member can mean the difference between a victory or defeat. That's worth a similar Limitation to me. In a world without other means of fast healing, perhaps it is the EH that saves the other character(s) from immediate death, but it takes a toll and must be used sparingly or you risk losing the healer.

 

Now one thing that I would add an additional Limitation on is if the Healer takes on Impairing/Disabling wounds with the Body damage. That significantly decreases the character's ability with skill use, combat, etc. and takes a long time to heal naturally from. Heck, that might warrant -1 for all Impairing/Disabling wounds to be considered Impairing or even -2 for Impairing wounds to be Impairing and Disabling to stay Disabling. In the first case, the character is Impaired as long as the original character. In the second, they are semi-permanent. Either way, the character is out Body and some other capacity for a generally long time. The random impairment roll tends to balance things out, so I have no problem using it as a base.

 

Another thing I would consider is just how often do combats take place and how typically lethal are they. If every session has a life or death combat tucked in there, maybe the Limitation value would be more. After all, even using such a power to do nothing more than staunch the wounds would add up quickly in that type of game. So, yeah, I can concede that a greater Limitation value would be appropriate.

 

And all this is not to say you don't have a point. I concede that in the interest of "getting the character back on their feet" you have a valid argument and one that anyone reading this thread should consider as part of the overall equation as well. Very few players would have the patience to run an ability that keeps them at less than peak conditions for extended periods of time. Those that would have my highest regard. It means that they have a concept that they want to explore and that makes for good role-playing potential.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

Then it would not be "Empathic Healing" as we know it. I see the Drain of STR as a perfectly valid Side Effect with the normal recovery. I even see the extension of that Recovery time as a valid method of increasing the Limitation value. I can almost hear you saying "huh?"

 

huh?

 

HERO has a built in mechanic for recovering Stun vs recovering Body. If a character takes Stun' date=' they at least get a Recovery every post-12 so they are getting back stun quite rapidly. Naturally healing Body is Rec per month. By tweaking the time frame, you are adjusting the basic metagaming concepts of the system. The choice of what Limitation to take usually falls on the player. The approval of that Limitation should be within the GM's power. As I've said before, if your campaign says "Empathy Healer can remove all the damage from another character and in turn heal it all back in a few minutes for a -2 Limitation" then go with that. A -2 Limitation in my mind is much more Limiting than that and I see that as a runaround the rules. I would not approve of a Body DRAIN vs a Body damaging attack in such cases.[/quote']

 

-2 is also the limitation for 3 charge's per day, costs END. That character can use their healing ability to full effect three times a day for a week. How many times can that Empathic Healer use her power to full effect in a week? Based on those figures, and even ignoring the fact that the Empath is also closer to death due to BOD loss, and closer to KO due to the "down 1 BOD means down 1 STUN" rule, the Empath seems much more limited than the 3 charge character.

 

If the Empath had a Stun side effect, rather than a BOD side effect, for the same -2 limitation, the Empath would recover quickly and be able to use her Healing to basically unlimited extent out of combat, although she would be limited in combat. In my experience, healers tend to fight during combat and heal afterwards anyway, so having the option of healing in combat if necessary, but being free to heal outside combat, seems a lot less limiting than losing BOD which must be healed naturally.

 

In campaigns that have the kludge of fast Body recovery' date=' Empathic Healing seems pretty useless to me. If EH can lay on hands, take the damage from another, and then hop in a bacta tank, then the Limitation would be way less.[/quote']

 

Say, at the level of a limitation that allows you to lay on hands, take the BOD damage from another and then puff and pant for a few seconds while recovering all the STUN taken from your " takes STUN when healing BOD" side effect?

 

Why not just throw Skippy the wounded wookie in the bacta tank to begin with? Maybe the EH can take just enough to stop Skippy from bleeding to death and then he gets thrown in the bacta tank later. Since EH has a similar option' date=' then I would drop the Limitation value to -1/2 or maybe a little more.[/quote']

 

The proper comparison is not "how long would the Empath take to recover BOD naturally". It is "How limited is the Empath's healing power compared to the healing power of a character who took no limitations, or took an alternative -2 limitation"? Simply put, under your rules, a BOD loss side effect seems far more limiting than a side effect that reduces STUN, or some other statistic, yet you will apply the same limitation value. To me, that is unfair to the Empath.

 

Now, if I wanted a game where it's very difficult, or impossible, to heal BOD rapidly, Empathic Healing that requires the BOD loss be recovered naturally might be a useful way of maintaining the effect that BOD loss is a long-term issue to be dealt with. Most games, however, don't tend to take the "Well, we're down BOD, so we better take a few months off" approach.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

huh? [?quote]

 

Now, if I wanted a game where it's very difficult, or impossible, to heal BOD rapidly, Empathic Healing that requires the BOD loss be recovered naturally might be a useful way of maintaining the effect that BOD loss is a long-term issue to be dealt with. Most games, however, don't tend to take the "Well, we're down BOD, so we better take a few months off" approach.

And there is the crux of it. In a game that has fast healing methods other than Empathic Healing, then Empathic Healing us a useless power to have. Well maybe not useless, but not as useful as the other fast healing methods. In a campaign where the only method of healing somebody other than naturally, is Empathic Healing, then Empathic Healing becomes something special.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

And there is the crux of it. In a game that has fast healing methods other than Empathic Healing' date=' then Empathic Healing us a useless power to have. Well maybe not useless, but not as useful as the other fast healing methods. In a campaign where the only method of healing somebody other than naturally, is Empathic Healing, then Empathic Healing becomes something special.[/quote']

 

In a game where other fast healing is available, the ability to regenerate 1 BOD per day is relatively useless. In a game where other healing abilities are not available, it becomes considerably more useful. Should the "Extra Time" limitation value be altered depending on which game we are playing?

 

I would suggest it should not. The limitation value is based on the amount by which it limits the power as compared to the baseline abilities granted by that power. It is not based on the other powers that surround it.

 

If, in my game, you are allowed to purchase special, customized weaponry, but not to purchase actual personal powers, that special, customized weaponry would still have a Focus limitation. The fact I do not allow you to have similar non-focused powers does not change the fact that a non-focused power would suffer less restrictions than your customized weapon.

 

If, in my Pulp game, you may not take Mind Control without limitations, but you may take Hypnosis, requiring a focus, a skill roll, close range and extra time, all of those limitations reduce the cost of Mind Control, because they limit the power.

 

If my Fantasy game requires all spells to Require a Skill Roll, and have Gestures and Incantations, those limitations still reduce the cost of the spells, even though no one can have spells without such limitations, because they still limit the flexibility of those powers from their unlimited base cost.

 

And, if my game is set to prohibit any healing power other than Empathic Healing, Empathic Healing should still be priced based on the unlimited Healing power, with cost reductions for the limitations required of Empathic Healing. Otherwise, the characters should buy something else (Combat Luck, defensive skill levels, better offense to take the enemy down before being wounded, or perhaps a base where they can safely rest until natural healing restores their lost BOD), rather bthan spend points on an Empathic healing ability which is overpriced for its game benefits.

[CourtFool]

I Disagree

 

The limitation value is based on the amount by which it limits the power as compared to the baseline abilities granted by that power. It is not based on the other powers that surround it.

 

I disagree with this principle. In practice, I tend not to alter the value of a Limitation. However, I do take into consideration how much of a Limitation it will be within the context of the entire game…which includes other abilities a character has.

 

If a character takes a Disadvantage of being blind, then takes Spatial Awareness, blindness is not so much of a Disadvantage. Granted, the character may not be able to read print or discern colors. That is still less of a limitation than being completely blind.

[Greywind]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

But for that person being blind is still an "All the time, fully impairing" physical limitation. It shouldn't matter that his body has somehow adapted to overcome the disability. Otherwise you'd have to reduce the value of the disadvantage for the person having a blind cane.

[CourtFool]

Re: Looking for a fair Limitation value

 

I put forth that we agree to disagree on this topic and move that we call up the next item on our agenda.