help! multipower at random?

[Gemphyre]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I have been reading this thread, and I must admit that the original poster has an interesting idea.

 

What I was thinking on this is that since it is an either/or situation on the MP, i.e. EITHER the power is selected at random OR Extra Time is taken to find the exact spell you want, then the Extra Time limitation could be set at the same level as the No Conscious Control, and one limitation is taken that includes both.

 

The reason is that Variable Limitation has always struck me as being a case of selecting any limitations that you wanted, as long as they added up to the designated level. In this case, for the MP as a whole, there are only two possibilities, and they are defined as being mutually exclusive.

 

Here is an example of how I would construct the MP reserve, given what he original poster has described, as well as taking a little creative license:

 

MP: Spellbook of Ar-Rath, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Random Spell Selection)(Only Effects cannot be controlled) OR Extra Time: Extra Phase, Delayed Phase (-1); all slots OAF (Spellbook) (-1), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Followed by the slots in the order that her wants. GM and player of course agree a head of time what is used to select the slots randomly. Each slot, assuming no other limitations, would be 3 points, since this cannot be used with multi slots by definition of the concept.

 

A reason that the spells take a few seconds to find could be that the are all close together (near the front of the book?) and the writing looks similar between the spells. The book also rejects and/or absorbs any attempt to mark the pages for faster reference. As he deciphers more spells, his multipower gets longer.

 

Gemphyre

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I have been reading this thread, and I must admit that the original poster has an interesting idea.

 

What I was thinking on this is that since it is an either/or situation on the MP, i.e. EITHER the power is selected at random OR Extra Time is taken to find the exact spell you want, then the Extra Time limitation could be set at the same level as the No Conscious Control, and one limitation is taken that includes both.

 

The reason is that Variable Limitation has always struck me as being a case of selecting any limitations that you wanted, as long as they added up to the designated level. In this case, for the MP as a whole, there are only two possibilities, and they are defined as being mutually exclusive.

 

Here is an example of how I would construct the MP reserve, given what he original poster has described, as well as taking a little creative license:

 

MP: Spellbook of Ar-Rath, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Random Spell Selection)(Only Effects cannot be controlled) OR Extra Time: Extra Phase, Delayed Phase (-1); all slots OAF (Spellbook) (-1), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Followed by the slots in the order that her wants. GM and player of course agree a head of time what is used to select the slots randomly. Each slot, assuming no other limitations, would be 3 points, since this cannot be used with multi slots by definition of the concept.

 

A reason that the spells take a few seconds to find could be that the are all close together (near the front of the book?) and the writing looks similar between the spells. The book also rejects and/or absorbs any attempt to mark the pages for faster reference. As he deciphers more spells, his multipower gets longer.

 

Gemphyre

 

Combining your example with my previous 3 produces:

 

20 Spellbook of Ar-Rath: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; Options: No Conscious Control (Random Spell Selection) (Only Effects cannot be controlled) OR Extra Time: Extra Phase, Delayed Phase; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Only 2 options available for Variable Limitations; -1/4); all slots OAF (Spellbook; -1), Incantations (-1/4)

5m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

5m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

5m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

5m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

Note that the inclusion of the (-1/4) Limited Power only saves 2 Real Points. Also note that the Extra Time Limitation only affects the slot choice/reserve distribution. If the character takes the extra time once and then doesn't change anything on his next phase he can use the same choices with no delay from that point on. Whether that is really worth a -1 Limitation is questionable.

[Gemphyre]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Combining your example with my previous 3 produces:

 

20 Spellbook of Ar-Rath: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; Options: No Conscious Control (Random Spell Selection) (Only Effects cannot be controlled) OR Extra Time: Extra Phase, Delayed Phase; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Only 2 options available for Variable Limitations; -1/4); all slots OAF (Spellbook; -1), Incantations (-1/4)

5m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

5m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

5m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

5m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

Note that the inclusion of the (-1/4) Limited Power only saves 2 Real Points. Also note that the Extra Time Limitation only affects the slot choice/reserve distribution. If the character takes the extra time once and then doesn't change anything on his next phase he can use the same choices with no delay from that point on. Whether that is really worth a -1 Limitation is questionable.

 

Which is why this forum exists in the first place. To let people bring forth their questions and suggestions so that a rough consensus can be reached on the "best" ways to do things, or to point out things that individuals forgot or did not consider. Different viewpoints are provided and critiques made, which helps us become better GMs and players.

 

Gemphyre

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

My point is still valid.

 

60 Generic (legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

 

40 Generic 2 (legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; Can only be Limitations that affect the allocation of Pool points; -1/2)

12m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

12m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

12m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

12m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

40 Generic 3 (NOT legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) [Notes: This option is imbalanced vs. the first two examples because it allows the character to take the least limiting Limitations for each situation. Example, if normally using OAF but the focus is taken away, the character could easily switch to Gestures, Incantations and x2 End. It's MORE efficient than if those individual Limitations were taken on each slot specifically.]

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

If you rule that example 3 is legal it makes example 2 invalid which makes no sense.

 

Example 2 is the problem, in my view. Let's change the example to two powers, a 12d6 EB and a 12d6 Flash, both Ultras. Character A pays 40 points for the pool, and 6 for each slot, for a total of 52. Character B buys a 12d6 Energy Blast for 60 points. Player C buys a 12d6 Flash for 60 points.

 

Characters B has an EB and can never have a Flash. Character C has a Flash and can never have an EB. Why does Character A, who can havce either, pay less points for greater versatility? Limitations on reallocating the pool should not reduce the cost to less than any one individual slot.

 

Character B should buy the same Multipower, but put -99 of Limitations on the reserve that only apply to changing the pool. He pays 1 point for the pool and 6 for each slot, and buys his 12d6 EB (that's the slot the MP is set to at the start) for 13 points. That's sufficiently obvious to be obviously disallowed, where Example B is less obvious, but both are abusive in the same fashion.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Example 2 is the problem, in my view. Let's change the example to two powers, a 12d6 EB and a 12d6 Flash, both Ultras. Character A pays 40 points for the pool, and 6 for each slot, for a total of 52. Character B buys a 12d6 Energy Blast for 60 points. Player C buys a 12d6 Flash for 60 points.

 

Characters B has an EB and can never have a Flash. Character C has a Flash and can never have an EB. Why does Character A, who can havce either, pay less points for greater versatility? Limitations on reallocating the pool should not reduce the cost to less than any one individual slot.

 

Character B should buy the same Multipower, but put -99 of Limitations on the reserve that only apply to changing the pool. He pays 1 point for the pool and 6 for each slot, and buys his 12d6 EB (that's the slot the MP is set to at the start) for 13 points. That's sufficiently obvious to be obviously disallowed, where Example B is less obvious, but both are abusive in the same fashion.

 

Ok, I've heard this argument before and I agree it has some merit.

 

You're example is a bit off in that it should really be comparing a Limited Individual 12d6 EB and Flash vs. the Limited MP Pool. However, that is a side issue.

 

Let's assume you are correct for the moment. If example 2 is now illegal then, by the same logic, example 3 is too. Variable Limitations does not limit the Multipower as a whole equal to the way it does the individual slots. It boils down to being a pool only Limitation just like my example 2 and should also be illegal to take on the MP Pool (which is part of the reason it already is illegal to do so in the RAW imho).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Ok, I've heard this argument before and I agree it has some merit.

 

You're example is a bit off in that it should really be comparing a Limited Individual 12d6 EB and Flash vs. the Limited MP Pool. However, that is a side issue.

 

Let's assume the character with the Multipower has the limitation "requires full phase to change from EB to Flash" on his Multipower pool, for a -1/2 limitation. He only has the two slots. The player who bought the 12d6 EB has the limitation "can never change points to Flash" and the character who bnought the 12d6 Flash has the limitation "can never change the points to EB". The only difference is that the first player got points back for his limitation, and the others did not.

 

As such, I believe (and I didn't always - other members of these Boards persuaded me) that a limitation on how the multipower can be changed should never be allowed to reduce the cost of the multipower below the cost of any one individual power within the Multipower. The extra flexibility has some value.

 

Variable Limitations does not limit the Multipower as a whole equal to the way it does the individual slots. It boils down to being a pool only Limitation just like my example 2 and should also be illegal to take on the MP Pool (which is part of the reason it already is illegal to do so in the RAW imho).

 

If it's a pool only limitation, it should be on the pool, but not the slots. In my view, Variable Limitation limits both the powers and the Multipower equally. If the character lacked Variable Limitation at all, he would never need to have any limitations on his Multipower, or any of the slots therein. If he places the Variable Limitation only on, say, Slot #3, only Slot #3 is limited, and the other slots (and the pool) can be used without limitation.

 

I wonder whether the problem is more one that you do not feel Variable Limitation is sufficiently limiting overall, rather than that the framework creates the problem. If Variable Limitation is not considered limiting on the pool, how is it any more limiting when placed on a single power?

 

I believe that Variable Limitation is limiting. I also believe the character with a total of -1 in fixed limitations on each Multipower slot is more limited than a character who has Variable Limitation on each slot, that both are more limited than a character who does not have Limitations on every slot, and less limited than a character who has the same limitation on every MP slot. Thus, the costs should run, from highest to lowest, as follows (and here's how I would achieve this):

 

No limitations on at least one MP slot (full cost for pool; limitations apply to limited slots)

 

Variable Limitation on every slot (take V Lim on pool and each slot)

 

Fixed limitation on each slot in same amount, but different limitations (take V Limit on pool and fixed limits on each slot)

 

Same fixed limitation on every slot (take full limitation on pool and each slot)

 

Whether the change in cost at each level is fully appropriate is a matter of opinion, but as I see it, that is the appropriate heirarchy of costs, because it reflects the extent to which each character's flexibility is restrained.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

...

 

I believe that Variable Limitation is limiting. I also believe the character with a total of -1 in fixed limitations on each Multipower slot is more limited than a character who has Variable Limitation on each slot, that both are more limited than a character who does not have Limitations on every slot, and less limited than a character who has the same limitation on every MP slot. Thus, the costs should run, from highest to lowest, as follows (and here's how I would achieve this):

 

No limitations on at least one MP slot (full cost for pool; limitations apply to limited slots)

 

Variable Limitation on every slot (take V Lim on pool and each slot)

 

Fixed limitation on each slot in same amount, but different limitations (take V Limit on pool and fixed limits on each slot)

 

Same fixed limitation on every slot (take full limitation on pool and each slot)

 

Whether the change in cost at each level is fully appropriate is a matter of opinion, but as I see it, that is the appropriate heirarchy of costs, because it reflects the extent to which each character's flexibility is restrained.

 

It sounds as though you are talking about your house rules as opposed to discussing the RAW (Rules As Written). That's cool.

 

But if you are talking about the RAW, then my second post to this thread quotes 5er where it clearly states that your bolded option above is illegal.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

...

 

I believe that Variable Limitation is limiting. I also believe the character with a total of -1 in fixed limitations on each Multipower slot is more limited than a character who has Variable Limitation on each slot, that both are more limited than a character who does not have Limitations on every slot, and less limited than a character who has the same limitation on every MP slot. ...

 

I'm not sure what you are comparing the -1 in fixed Limitations to but here is the best way I know of doing it:

 

60 Generic example 1a (legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve - END=

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (-1/2) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) - END=12

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) - END=6

 

60 Generic example 1-original (legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve - END=

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

 

60 Generic example 1b (legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve - END=

6m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) - END=6

6m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4) - END=6

6m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Levitation (-1/2) - END=12

6m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Instant (-1/2) - END=6

 

Example 1a is less limited than example 1-original. Example 1-original is less limited than example 1b. You appear to be arguing that 1a is more limited than 1-original which makes no sense.

[Bloodstone]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

since no one else asked yet:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1358949#post1358949

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

It sounds as though you are talking about your house rules as opposed to discussing the RAW (Rules As Written). That's cool.

 

But if you are talking about the RAW, then my second post to this thread quotes 5er where it clearly states that your bolded option above is illegal.

 

To clairify, I am saying the rules as written lead to an inappropriate result, and I therefore depart from them.

 

I'm not sure what you are comparing the -1 in fixed Limitations to but here is the best way I know of doing it:

 

60 Generic example 1a (legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve - END=

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (-1/2) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) - END=12

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) - END=6

 

60 Generic example 1-original (legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve - END=

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

 

60 Generic example 1b (legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve - END=

6m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) - END=6

6m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4) - END=6

6m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Levitation (-1/2) - END=12

6m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Instant (-1/2) - END=6

 

Example 1a is less limited than example 1-original. Example 1-original is less limited than example 1b. You appear to be arguing that 1a is more limited than 1-original which makes no sense.

 

1a and 1 are not comparable. To be comparable, 1a should have a total of -1 in limitations on each slot, as 1 will also require -1 in limitations on each slot.

 

I am saying that having -1/2 in variable limitations on every slot limits the Multipower overall, not merely the slots, and that allowing that limitation on the slots only (and not the pool) is both inconsistent with the normal rule that having the same limitation (and Variable Limitations is a limitation) on every slot means it applies to the pool, and it is generating an inappropriate result - too small a point savings for the limiting factor of the variable limitation.

 

Consider a character with an Energy Blast, 12d6, Variable Limitations (-2), costing 30 points. He also buys a 12d6 Flash with Variable Limitations (-2), costing 30 points. He has spent 60 points. He can use both powers at once, in an MPA, should he wish to do so.

 

A second character buys a Multipower with two slots, both with Varaible Limitation (-2). Let's assume they are Ultras, one an EB and one a Flash. Under RAW, he pays 60 points for the pool and 3 for each slot, a total of 66. He can only use one power at a time.

 

The first character has spent less points for a more versatile ability. Is that fair? I think not. Is it easily fixed? Yes, by allowing the second character to follow the normal rule that, if all slots have the same limitation, the limitation also applies to the pool.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

...

 

1a and 1 are not comparable.

 

...

 

Huh?

 

They both have slots with specific Limitations worth (-1/2). The fact that one example's specific Limitation happens to be something called Variable Limitations doesn't change that fact.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Huh?

 

They both have slots with specific Limitations worth (-1/2). The fact that one example's specific Limitation happens to be something called Variable Limitations doesn't change that fact.

 

One has the same limitation on all slots (the fact that the specific Limitation happens to be something called Variable Limitations doesn't change that fact) while the other has different limitations on each slot.

 

Under my modified rule, the Var Lim MP would get a -1/2 limitation on the pool, and on each slot, since all slots have the same -1/2 limitation (the same as if they were all OIF).

 

The other pool would get -1/2 on each slot, as each slot has hardwired -1/2 limitations, and the pool would get a -1/4 limitation (based on Variable Limitation requiring each slot to have -1/2 in limitations).

[Bloodstone]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

since no one else asked yet:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1358949#post1358949

 

The Steve has spoken...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

The Steve has spoken...

 

Yep. And I am confused afterwards as usual. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

 

I await his possible explanation to my follow up thread.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

As discussed on page 311' date=' if a character wants to apply a Limitation to both the basic cost of a Multipower and all of its slots, the Limitation must be exactly the same on each slot. If a character has the same value of Limitations on each slot, but the Limitations themselves differ, he may not take that value of Limitation on the reserve. [b']Nor may he apply the Variable Limitations Limitation to the reserve. [/b]Similarly, a character may not apply the same Limitation with different values to each slot, then apply the lowest value of that Limitation to the reserve (unless the GM permits this, in which case the lowest value of the Limitation applies to the reserve). However, with the GM’s permission, if a character applies slightly different variations of the same Limitation to all the slots in a Multipower, and those Limitations all have the same value, he can apply that Limitation value to the reserve. (This most commonly occurs with the Limitations Requires A Skill Roll and Side Effects.)

 

 

The emphasis was, I believe, added by HyperMan. I believe the bolded sentence modifies the previous sentence, but does not preclude the reserve having the Variable Limitations limitation in other circumstances. In other words, a character who has 3 Multipower slots, one with Act 11-, a second with OAF and a third with RSR (-1/2) and Side Effects (-1/2) is not permitted to take a -1/2 limitation for "Variable Limitations" on the reserve.

 

I disagree with that rule, as I feel that the multipower described above is more limited than one which has Variable Limitation on the reserve and, consequently, all the slots, so it should cost less, not more.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

The emphasis was, I believe, added by HyperMan. I believe the bolded sentence modifies the previous sentence, but does not preclude the reserve having the Variable Limitations limitation in other circumstances. In other words, a character who has 3 Multipower slots, one with Act 11-, a second with OAF and a third with RSR (-1/2) and Side Effects (-1/2) is not permitted to take a -1/2 limitation for "Variable Limitations" on the reserve.

 

I disagree with that rule, as I feel that the multipower described above is more limited than one which has Variable Limitation on the reserve and, consequently, all the slots, so it should cost less, not more.

 

I agree with your interpretation (exactly how I read it) and also disagree with the ruling.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I've been thinking about this while waiting on Steve's reply to my followup rules thread.

 

Would any of you allow either of the following specific Limitations to be taken as the Variable Limitation of the moment on the example below?

 

Limited Power (Only Works In Daylight; -1)

Limited Power (Does Not Work In Daylight; -1)

 

40 Generic example X: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

Yes, this is an extreme case. Regardless, it illustrates that the Reserve should not get a (-1/2) or 20 point discount in this case since the character would never need to use any other type of Limitation unless facing a villain who had Light or Darkness based powers.

 

Less extreme examples of this same principle can be shown with OAF and other Limitations.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I've been thinking about this while waiting on Steve's reply to my followup rules thread.

 

Would any of you allow either of the following specific Limitations to be taken as the Variable Limitation of the moment on the example below?

 

Limited Power (Only Works In Daylight; -1)

Limited Power (Does Not Work In Daylight; -1)

 

40 Generic example X: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

Yes, this is an extreme case. Regardless, it illustrates that the Reserve should not get a (-1/2) or 20 point discount in this case since the character would never need to use any other type of Limitation unless facing a villain who had Light or Darkness based powers.

 

Less extreme examples of this same principle can be shown with OAF and other Limitations.

 

I would need to have a description of how the entire power works, and what other limitations the Variable Limitation could be made up of. I might consider allowing one of the two to be a legit variable limitation. Allowing a choice of either? No way. But that would be my answer for any Variable Limitation, whether or not applied to a Multipower.

 

I would also consider allowing it if each of the slots was hard wired to one of the two specific limitations (ie some slots work only in the daytime and some only at night) if the concept backed it up, although I would not allow it if the result was only marginally different options in the day and at night.

 

But then, I might also allow a character with a Multiform with no control, one form in the day and one in the night.

[archermoo]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I've been thinking about this while waiting on Steve's reply to my followup rules thread.

 

Would any of you allow either of the following specific Limitations to be taken as the Variable Limitation of the moment on the example below?

 

Limited Power (Only Works In Daylight; -1)

Limited Power (Does Not Work In Daylight; -1)

 

40 Generic example X: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

Yes, this is an extreme case. Regardless, it illustrates that the Reserve should not get a (-1/2) or 20 point discount in this case since the character would never need to use any other type of Limitation unless facing a villain who had Light or Darkness based powers.

 

Less extreme examples of this same principle can be shown with OAF and other Limitations.

 

This shows a potential abuse of Variable Limitation in general, not just as it applies to Multipowers.

[JmOz]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I've been thinking about this while waiting on Steve's reply to my followup rules thread.

 

Would any of you allow either of the following specific Limitations to be taken as the Variable Limitation of the moment on the example below?

 

Limited Power (Only Works In Daylight; -1)

Limited Power (Does Not Work In Daylight; -1)

 

40 Generic example X: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

Yes, this is an extreme case. Regardless, it illustrates that the Reserve should not get a (-1/2) or 20 point discount in this case since the character would never need to use any other type of Limitation unless facing a villain who had Light or Darkness based powers.

 

Less extreme examples of this same principle can be shown with OAF and other Limitations.

 

Yes I would allow ONE of those to be chosen, but not both on a VarLim

 

For example, this seems reasonable to me as a list

 

-1 Only in daylight

x3 END

OAF (Focusing crystal)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I just read Steve's response to my rules followup question and I was wrong.

 

Again.

 

To say the wording in the book could use some improvement seems to be an understatement.

[dsatow]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

The situation described by the original poster is a limitation on the Multipower as a whole' date=' affecting the ability of the character to distribute his reserve points. Either the selection of a slot is random or it takes extra time. I cannot see any restriction within 5ER on taking Variable Limitations [b']only on the reserve[/b] when the limitation is acting on the Multipower as a whole.

 

This has been noted before but my taking a Variable limitation on the multipower the limitation can cycle back and forth from the extra time to side effects. However, I think I may begin to understand the confusion. If you are thinking that setting the limitation would then affect the power on the slot each time its used (ie: the PC changes slot with extra time on one phase but does not use the power. On the next phase he wants to use the power without either the random effect or the extra time). I don't think most GMs would hold that against the character and hold to the idea of the configuration. However there is another way.

 

The one other method not mention yet is using a VPP with limitations on the control cost. This would affect changing the pool only and would be universally accepted especially if the pool had a strict limitation affecting what powers could be drawn from it.

[archermoo]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I just read Steve's response to my rules followup question and I was wrong.

 

Again.

 

To say the wording in the book could use some improvement seems to be an understatement.

 

I'll point out that not everyone read it as you did. Some of us even said so.