help! multipower at random?

[Crux]

I've been fascinated for some time with the idea of a character who can activate a multipower at will, but can only control which power by taking extra time.

 

For example: Marvin the Mage found an ancient spellbook. Due to the chaotic nature of magic, the spells rearrange themselves whenever he isn't actively looking at it. This could also apply to a deck of cards, or some gizmo with knobs to set or any other kinds of combinations.

 

How I see this working is that Marvin can cast a spell from the book just by opening and reading it. However, the spell that he reads is randomly determined could be the 10d6 heal... could be the 5d6 RKA.... However if he spends a phase (extra time) flipping through the pages, he can find the exact spell he wants.

 

I want the character to have the option of randomly pulling a power, so that in an emergency he can just toss something out which will either help or hurt their situation. Perhaps 9 of the 10 spells are attacks, but the other is a heal or aid etc.

 

I'm just not sure how to make the control conditional. No Concious Control doesn't quite fit, nor does Side Effects or Extra time. Any ideas?

[Steve Long]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

This is a discussion topic rather than a rules question, so I've moved it.

[Maccabe]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Would the idea of ACTIVATION roll (say 15 or less) with the SIDE EFFECT that if the roll fails you get a result negative to what you were trying to get.

EX; HEAL the villians, RKA your friends

[Lord Liaden]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Hmm... well, No Conscious Control at the -1 Level allows you to use a Power at will, but not control how the Power is used. That seems to be the starting point for the effect you want. Whatever permutation of this Limitation you might use, IMO it should only be applied to the Multipower Reserve, not the slots, since the slots themselves can be fully controlled once they're chosen.

 

From this point I can suggest two ways to proceed. The simpler way is to declare that No Conscious Control is less restrictive in this case, and reduce the value of the Limitation accordingly. My own gut reaction would be to peg it at -1/2, but YMMV.

 

The other way would be to use the "limitation buyoff" method. It's more involved but also more precise. I've seen the rules suggest using it for Powers with the Always On Limitation, but it should fit just as well in this case.

 

After you apply the -1 No Conscious Control Limitation, determine the number of Character Points you save by taking that Lim, add that number of points to the character's sheet (essentially "buying off" NCC), then Limit those points according to whatever conditions give the character control of the Power - in your case, Extra Time.

[Starlight]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Looking at the example situation described by the original poster it's clear this is a case of the utility of the multipower being limited by either extra time OR random selection of multipower slot. In other words a variable limitation. So that, I'd suggest, would be a good starting point for building such a construct.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Excellent suggestion.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Looking at the example situation described by the original poster it's clear this is a case of the utility of the multipower being limited by either extra time OR random selection of multipower slot. In other words a variable limitation. So that' date=' I'd suggest, would be a good starting point for building such a construct.[/quote']

 

The caveat being that a Variable Limitation can't be taken on the Multipower Reserve.

 

from:

page 320 ■ Character Creation: Power Frameworks

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

If every slot in a Multipower takes the same Limitation, then the character may also apply that Limitation to the Multipower reserve to reduce its cost (Charges is an exception [see below]; so is Variable Limitations).

[archermoo]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

The caveat being that a Variable Limitation can't be taken on the Multipower Reserve.

 

from:

page 320 ■ Character Creation: Power Frameworks

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

I'll note that doesn't say that you cannot limit the Reserve with a Variable Limitation, it says that you cannot take the Limitation on the Reserve just because you took it on all the slots.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

The caveat being that a Variable Limitation can't be taken on the Multipower Reserve.

 

from:

page 320 ■ Character Creation: Power Frameworks

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

 

I'm not sure you're quite reading that right there, H-M....

 

it could be me, however.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I think you both might want to take a look at a different paragraph from the same page referenced earlier:

 

As discussed on page 311, if a character wants to apply a Limitation to both the basic cost of a Multipower and all of its slots, the Limitation must be exactly the same on each slot. If a character has the same value of Limitations on each slot, but the Limitations themselves differ, he may not take that value of Limitation on the reserve. Nor may he apply the Variable Limitations Limitation to the reserve. Similarly, a character may not apply the same Limitation with different values to each slot, then apply the lowest value of that Limitation to the reserve (unless the GM permits this, in which case the lowest value of the Limitation applies to the reserve). However, with the GM’s permission, if a character applies slightly different variations of the same Limitation to all the slots in a Multipower, and those Limitations all have the same value, he can apply that Limitation value to the reserve. (This most commonly occurs with the Limitations Requires A Skill Roll and Side Effects.)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I think you both might want to take a look at a different paragraph from the same page referenced earlier:

 

I think thats a stop punch of a trick many of us on the boards were here advocating as a translation of an earlier edition's (optional or house?)rules... the Common Limit approach where if every slot had Limits the Reserve could also take a "free" limitation equal to the smallest "Common limit" value. It was suggested that Variable Limit on the Reserve would be a somewhat 5th Edition legal way of partially replicating this effect, and I think this was added to 5ER to close that option/can of worms.

[archermoo]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I think you both might want to take a look at a different paragraph from the same page referenced earlier:

 

I was simply commenting that the text you quoted didn't say what you said it did.

 

The new quotations seems to be much more to point, though as the context of that paragraph is talking about limitations on all slots applying to the Reserve as well, I'm not sure it is a definitive statement that the Variable Limitation Limitation isn't applicable to the Reserve ever.

 

I would certainly let someone apply it as a Reserve Only limitation, particularly in the instance outlined in this thread.

 

If it hasn't been already covered in the FAQ it might be worth asking Steve about it.

[dsatow]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

My $.02,

 

I was trying to make the artificat ring from AD&D 1st edition (I think its the Ring of Gygax or something). Basically, like the original poster, if you take time, you can accurately configure the ring to do what you want. It came out very cheap when you look at it this way.

 

Each slot has a skill roll based on active points. Failure to make the skill roll activates the Major Side Effects (random power in multipower). Since effectively the limitation doesn't change, it can be applied to the whole multipower.

 

To simulate the random setting each morning, I just put a -1/4 limitation (first roll each day at -20).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Hmm... well, No Conscious Control at the -1 Level allows you to use a Power at will, but not control how the Power is used. That seems to be the starting point for the effect you want. Whatever permutation of this Limitation you might use, IMO it should only be applied to the Multipower Reserve, not the slots, since the slots themselves can be fully controlled once they're chosen.

 

From this point I can suggest two ways to proceed. The simpler way is to declare that No Conscious Control is less restrictive in this case, and reduce the value of the Limitation accordingly. My own gut reaction would be to peg it at -1/2, but YMMV.

 

The other way would be to use the "limitation buyoff" method. It's more involved but also more precise. I've seen the rules suggest using it for Powers with the Always On Limitation, but it should fit just as well in this case.

 

After you apply the -1 No Conscious Control Limitation, determine the number of Character Points you save by taking that Lim, add that number of points to the character's sheet (essentially "buying off" NCC), then Limit those points according to whatever conditions give the character control of the Power - in your case, Extra Time.

 

I like this solution best.

[Starlight]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I believe an argument can be made that neither of the passages quoted by Hyper-Man applies to the situation described by the original poster. The quoted passages refer to the situation when slots in a Multipower have limitations and define the circumstances under which the reserve can also have a limitation applied. I have to admit I hadn't remembered those passages and needed to read them a couple of times before making up my mind they probably didn't apply. The passage of most direct relevance, I think, occurs earlier on the same page of 5ER.

 

If a limitation affects only the Multipower as a whole, or only the character's ability to change slots, then it applies only to the Multipower reserve. The most common example of this is taking Charges for the entire Multipower (see below). Other possibilities include extra time (it takes the character longer than normal to distribute his reserve points)

 

The situation described by the original poster is a limitation on the Multipower as a whole, affecting the ability of the character to distribute his reserve points. Either the selection of a slot is random or it takes extra time. I cannot see any restriction within 5ER on taking Variable Limitations only on the reserve when the limitation is acting on the Multipower as a whole.

[Bloodstone]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

For the record, there are several characters in Arcane Adversaries that use Variable Limitaiton on their MP's or VPP.

 

For example, Astralle has Variable Limitaiton on her MP for a -1/4. Every time she uses a power in the MP, she must take atleast a -1/2 worth of lims chosen from amongst OIF, Activation Roll, Concentration, Extra Time, Gestures and Incantations.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

For the record, there are several characters in Arcane Adversaries that use Variable Limitaiton on their MP's or VPP.

 

For example, Astralle has Variable Limitaiton on her MP for a -1/4. Every time she uses a power in the MP, she must take atleast a -1/2 worth of lims chosen from amongst OIF, Activation Roll, Concentration, Extra Time, Gestures and Incantations.

 

I'll have to check, but I believe that's one of the few books that I don't own. Are you sure that the Variable Limitations are being applied to both the MP Reserve and Slot costs? If so it's just a rare example of a published character violating 5er RAW.

 

Yes, Variable Limitations can be taken on the Multipower Reserve only but there are very few Limitations that apply only to the Reserve and not to the slots as well. If we stick with -1 for the Lesser No Conscious Control then the character would have to take -1 worth of Extra Time to change slots accurately. The options are: (Extra Phase, Delayed Phase, -1) or (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, -1). And by using Variable Lim's the character gets an effective -1/2 Limitation only for the MP Reserve.

 

I still like LL's 2nd option the best.

[archermoo]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I'll have to check, but I believe that's one of the few books that I don't own. Are you sure that the Variable Limitations are being applied to both the MP Reserve and Slot costs? If so it's just a rare example of a published character violating 5er RAW.

 

Of course it is also possible that your interpretation of the rules is what is incorrect. As I said, the sections you quoted seemed to be saying that applying the Variable Limitation Limitation to the Reserve cost because all of the slots have it is forbidden. Not that taking it on the Reserve itself was against the rules.

 

If it is limiting the Reserve and the Slots, I see no problems with Variable Limitation being applied to both. And I don't see anything in the rules that invalidates that.

 

But then again, we could always ask Steve, since he does usually reply to such questions.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

If it is limiting the Reserve and the Slots, I see no problems with Variable Limitation being applied to both. And I don't see anything in the rules that invalidates that.

 

Sure, you could take a Var Lim on the Reserve and a separate Var Lim on the slots but they would stack. That is, the Limitation taken on the Reserve would have to be different than the one taken on the active slot(s). They couldn't both take the same (or common) Limitation and be legal. This is covered in the sections I quoted earlier. To rule otherwise is to open a loophole that totally invalidates those quoted sections which makes no sense to me.

 

But then again, we could always ask Steve, since he does usually reply to such questions.

 

Be my guest.

[McCoy]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Looking at the example situation described by the original poster it's clear this is a case of the utility of the multipower being limited by either extra time OR random selection of multipower slot. In other words a variable limitation. So that' date=' I'd suggest, would be a good starting point for building such a construct.[/quote']

What he said.

[JmOz]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Another change I will have to ignore. Sorry used varLim on MP for years, no balance issue yet

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

I believe the rule quoted by HM, properly read, prohibits applying Variable Limitation to the pool where each slot has an array of fixed limitations. That is, if your three slot Multipower has one slot with OAF, one with 2x END and Extra Time, Full Phae, and one with Activate 11-, you can't slap Variable Limitation (-1/2) on the pool, despite the fact each slot has -1 of limitations.

 

Frankly, that's a stupid rule anyway. If I put V lim -1/2 on the pool and all the slots, then each slot could have OAF, 2x END and Extra Time, Full Phase or Activate 11-, swapping between them to take the one which limits the least as the need arises. To me, that's more flexible than a MP with three slots, each with a fixed -1 limitation, and therefore should cost more. [Thanks, HM]

 

My solution? You CAN take V Lim on the reserve, and the full limitation on each slot cost.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

.... To me, that's more flexible than a MP with three slots, each with a fixed -1 limitation, and therefore should cost less.

...

 

Since when does more flexibility equate to costing less?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Since when does more flexibility equate to costing less?

 

Context clarifies, but I've edited my post. Thanks for the catch.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: help! multipower at random?

 

Context clarifies' date=' but I've edited my post. Thanks for the catch.[/quote']

 

My point is still valid.

 

60 Generic (legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) - END=6

 

40 Generic 2 (legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; Can only be Limitations that affect the allocation of Pool points; -1/2)

12m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

12m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

12m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

12m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

40 Generic 3 (NOT legal via RAW): Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; -1/2) [Notes: This option is imbalanced vs. the first two examples because it allows the character to take the least limiting Limitations for each situation. Example, if normally using OAF but the focus is taken away, the character could easily switch to Gestures, Incantations and x2 End. It's MORE efficient than if those individual Limitations were taken on each slot specifically.]

8m 1) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 2) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 3) Flight 30" (60 Active Points) - END=6

8m 4) Force Field (30 PD/30 ED) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

If you rule that example 3 is legal it makes example 2 invalid which makes no sense.