[Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

[Niles]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

I don't think you're right.

In your example, the guy aborts his phase 8 to act on phase 7. His missile deflection only works until his Phase 8. Not 10. He Aborted to act earlier but phase 8 is still his action phase.

Also 1 DEX guy aborted his phase 6 but still got to take another action then.

 

1 DEX guy is also taking an increasing penalty every time he gets shot at multiple times on the same deflect action.

[Vondy]

Re: Ponderance....

 

I don't see it as any more' date=' or less, "realistic" to be able to deflect searing heat than to be able to deflect a burst of flames (EB or KA). The +1 advantage for NND allows it to ignore normal defenses. It still needs to hit in order to do damage. Missile deflection doesn't provide a defense, it prevents the hit being successful.[/quote']

 

Steve: "Missile Deflection is a bit unusual in that it looks at the special effect as a basic determinant of what it works against, yet also has some rules about specific Powers and abilities that it won’t work against. NND attacks are not one of the listed exceptions, so you look to the special effect to determine whether a character’s Missile Deflection works against a given NND attack."

Summation: Its strictly an FX question, and therefore a matter for individual GMs to rule on. We disagree. Its insoluble.

 

I would point out, however, that the FAQ says:

 

"The rules note that a character cannot Missile Deflect an attack which he cannot perceive."

It does not specify attacks taken with invisible power effects, and dramatic sense would indicate a big ball of fire would be far more visible than waves of heat. At the very least I would give her penalties to her deflection roll, and unless she was expecting it (for whatever reason) I probably wouldn't give her the roll at all.

[Metaphysician]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Yes, but your point of disagreement makes little sense. Gravitar's Missile Deflection is good enough to work on pure energy; whether that energy is in the form of an EB or NND should make little difference.

[Vondy]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Yes' date=' but your point of disagreement makes little sense. Gravitar's Missile Deflection is good enough to work on pure energy; whether that energy is in the form of an EB or NND should make little difference.[/quote']

 

NNDs operate on FX.

 

Missile Deflection operates on FX.

 

Thus: see my edit for clarification of the point.

 

An additional point is, as has been mentioned, balance.

 

If you apply the standard you just mentioned, she can basically deflect anything irregardless of FX, which is abusive.

 

There is a dramatic and practical difference between the fire and heat attacks.

 

You want to rule differently? Go for it, but I'm not giving her that kind of unrestricted latitude in terms of trumping FX.

[Metaphysician]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

There's the thing though: I don't see being able to Missile Deflect everything as abusive.

 

For one thing, she still needs to make the OCV rolls, for another thing, there are wide categories of attacks that are still undeflectable ( mental attacks, most area attacks ). For a third thing, and most importantly, she's giving up the ability to take offensive action to do this.

 

That last one particularly is the kicker, and why I don't see most forms of Missile Deflection as any more unbalanced than, oh, Defense Maneuver + Martial Dodge.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ponderance....

 

"The rules note that a character cannot Missile Deflect an attack which he cannot perceive."

It does not specify attacks taken with invisible power effects, and dramatic sense would indicate a big ball of fire would be far more visible than waves of heat. At the very least I would give her penalties to her deflection roll, and unless she was expecting it (for whatever reason) I probably wouldn't give her the roll at all.

 

If we're going to give the waves of heat an advantage that stems from the power being less visible that the default (or, viewed another way, make the fireball more visible than the default), shouldn't the NND pay for this added advantage? I'm reluctant to add IPE (at the +1/2 level to eliminate Sight) to the NND free of charge, as I'm not prepared to allow a lesser NND advantage for an NND which is more readily perceived, and can therefore be missile deflected. I would rather require any attack which cannot be missile deflected pay something (+1/4 indirect, perhaps?) for that advantage.

[Balabanto]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

I'm going to agree with Hugh on that one. You can't get a power advantage for free unless it's your SFX RELATED to THEIR SFX, and that's always a GM call.

 

Yeah, if bob has magnetic powers, and Thunderfist the brick throws a big chunk of ferrous iron at him, he should get an OCV bonus if Bob has a magnetic force field up and he's not deflecting.

 

No, this isn't one of those cases.

[Enforcer84]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Yeah, but I don't think it works like that. I asked Steve myself. I could be wrong. I'll survive if I am.

 

After posting I was wondering why I was bothering with "Missile Defense Dude" anyway.

Hey what do you know? I was wrong!

[MitchellS]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Hey what do you know? I was wrong!

It definitely changes things in the game.

[Enforcer84]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

It definitely changes things in the game.

Nah, I'd still run it my way.

 

Unless Steve sends the Blue Moon Killer after wpoeple who don't run to his standards.

[MitchellS]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Nah, I'd still run it my way.

 

Unless Steve sends the Blue Moon Killer after wpoeple who don't run to his standards.

I'd run it my way too [with M&M ]. Still it's a big change in the rules and how they function in regard to attack actions.

[dsatow]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

As far as I understand, this ruling has always existed in HERO. Lets revisit the scenario...

 

First off lets change the dexs to be near equal. 35 dex will now be 36 dex and 1 dex will now be 35 DEX. Note the capitals to keep things trackable.

 

Next we will note when 35 DEX aborts and his percentage chance to deflect. We will drop range mods to keep it simple. Also, we will go one phase farther than previously shown.

 

Phase 12: 36 dex shoots, 35 DEX aborts and deflects (62.5%).

 

Turn Ends.

 

Phase 2: 36 dex shoots, 35 DEX deflects again at -2 (37.5%) and shoots back on thier phase.

Phase 4: 36 dex shoots, 35 DEX aborts and deflects (62.5%).

Phase 6: 36 dex shoots, 35 DEX deflects again at -2 (37.5%) and shoots back on thier phase.

Phase 7: 36 dex shoots, 35 DEX aborts to his deflect (62.5%).

Phase 8: 35 DEX aborted.

Phase 9: 36 dex shoots, 35 DEX deflects again at -2 (37.5%).

Phase 10: 35 DEX shoots.

Phase 11: 36 dex shoot, 35 DEX aborts to his deflect (62.5%).

Phase 12: 36 dex shoots, 35 DEX deflects from his abort at -2 (37.5%).

 

Turn Ends.

 

Phase 2: 36 dex shoots, 35 DEX deflects again at -4 (16.2%) and shoots back on thier phase.

 

Not good odds but then again 36 dex is tactically acting stupid and not taking advantage of his speed. If on 2, 6, and 9, 36 dex just delayed. Then, 35 DEX would have no attacks and on 10, 11, and 12 the chances of deflection are 62.5, 37.5, 16.2. If 36 dex allows one attack on 9, then on 10, 11, 12, and 2 the deflect chances drop slowly drop to 4.6.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

As far as I understand' date=' this ruling has always existed in HERO. [/quote']

 

Yep.

 

Overuse of this type of tactic without its appropriate counter is one of the many reasons we see the occasional alternative speed chart proposals here every once in a while.

[incrdbil]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Firewing just doesnt have the mentality to do what it takes to win against Gravitar int he first meeting, and by the tiem he figures out what he needs to do, its too late.

 

Every meethign after that though, all bets are off. Firewing would like to win honorably..but he'll take just winning if thats all he can get.

 

As for the missile defelct debate--though I dont liek it, thats how the rules read--the missile defeclt continues until the defectors phase starts again.

 

The ultimate solution against such abise is a common one, and one that cant be avoided in any system: if OneDexMan takes Missle Deflection, you dont let them have so many levels. Heck, don't let anyone have that many levels so that they can easily get away doing that. But it works that way-- just like a dodge or other martial art move with a DCV bonus gives you protection until your next phase. A high Dex guy with mack to back phases can Dodge at hsi high Dex, then delay his action the next phase--keepign the high DCV; he then acts act Dex 1of the phase he woudl normally not haver an action-and goes with some huge offensive move that lowers his DCV, then on the next phase, dodges or performs some other high DCV move.

 

You can play these SPD games with a lot of powers.

 

Thats why villains with tactics, fast draw, and the stealth to hit from supriise are so handy to bring in and pop players bubbles when they get out of line.

[Enforcer84]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

I'd run it my way too [with M&M ]. Still it's a big change in the rules and how they function in regard to attack actions.

Right because there are no uberdefenses there.