Worst. Hero. Ever.

[Clonus]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

 

I also dislike the character because he feels like he was created backwards. IMO Cable seems like a character who's background was written after he was created (and already seen print) to substantiate the character and his all-to-unrelated sets of powers.

 

 

Cable went through a long period in which the only thing anyone, including those putting out the comic book, knew about him was what he looked like. Everything else about him was decided after the fact.

[Vestnik]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

It's a genre built around men in tights who fight crime. Taking any of it too seriously is probably a bad call.

 

Oddhat, they live in the Superhero Club House.

 

A Club House. What's next, a Superhero Pillow Fort?

[OddHat]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

Oddhat, they live in the Superhero Club House.

 

A Club House. What's next, a Superhero Pillow Fort?

 

They were written mainly for kids. It's the dark secret of adult fans of the genre; from the beginning, even in the long lost Golden Age, Superhero stories were written mainly for teen boys and kids.

 

There's still a difference between good kids stories and bad kids stories, and sure the books are aimed at an older audience now, but when I look back at Golden and Silver age stories the goofy stuff just doesn't bug me. Superman and Batman have secret lairs full of junk taken from old foes? Cool. Spiderman can make unlimited web fluid with properties the best chemists in the world couldn't duplicate on a poor high school kid's budget? Nice. Marvel New York keeps functioning even though scores of blocks are trashed every week? Fine. People have superpowers? Groovy.

 

My campaigns are less goofy than the books in those days, and my favorite current titles keep the whimsy in the background, but as far as the Superheroes Club House or Dog House of Solitude go, I say shine on, space brother, shine on.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

I kind of like Tom Strong's concept. "Victorian Era Perfect Man survives and grows as the world fills with Superheroes and Mad Science around him." Different strokes.

 

Heh, when you put it that way, I like it to. I was originally introduced to the character as a "Gadgeteer/Skilled Normal with almost parodic levels of Reputation". Of course, he turned out to be the freakin' awesomest charcter ever. I love that comic more than is healthy.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

Going back to page one here about the Hulk...

 

I think the Hulk is a great character to have in the universe, often as a foil for the "real" heroes and a sometimes interesting dilemma. As a seperate character in his own book, not so much. The support characters and bad guys often seemed a lot more interesting. I usually only bought a Hulk comic when there were interesting guest stars, and have a good chunk of Peter David's "Professor Hulk" run. There again though, a lot of attention was paid to the support characters. So to me the Hulk is more about "how does everyone and the world in general deal with him?" vs. "what are the deep inner conflicts within Hulk's soul?". He's a force of nature, not a hero.

[Vestnik]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

They were written mainly for kids. It's the dark secret of adult fans of the genre; from the beginning, even in the long lost Golden Age, Superhero stories were written mainly for teen boys and kids.

 

There's still a difference between good kids stories and bad kids stories, and sure the books are aimed at an older audience now, but when I look back at Golden and Silver age stories the goofy stuff just doesn't bug me.

 

But that's my point! It's wonderful light-hearted stories for kids. For me, Supes _works_ in that setting. However, for me, the suspension of disbelief starts to fail once that setting is departed from -- I know, people in tights fighting crime and all that makes no sense, but a Cool Super-Fort at the North Pole with a Giant Golden Key? Superhero Club-Houses? That's risible. It would be like trying to run an Iron Age version of Josey and the Pussy-Cats. Never the twain shall meet.

[OddHat]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

Heh' date=' when you put it that way, I like it to. I was originally introduced to the character as a "Gadgeteer/Skilled Normal with almost parodic levels of Reputation". Of course, he turned out to be [i']the freakin' awesomest charcter ever[/i]. I love that comic more than is healthy.

 

It has had its rough spots, but I love the whole America's Best Comics line. Moore has said a few times in interviews that after twenty years of deconstructing the Superhero, it's past time to put him back together again, and while Tom Strong, Promethea and Terra Obscura haven't been perfect at that, they've come as close as anything in the industry. Like Astro City and Planetary, other titles with different flavors but a similar feel, the ABC line feels like it's aimed at the 30 and older crowd who are still reading comics, people past our angstiest years just looking a good superhero story.

[OddHat]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

But that's my point! It's wonderful light-hearted stories for kids. For me' date=' Supes _works_ in that setting. However, for me, the suspension of disbelief starts to fail once that setting is departed from --[/quote']

Agreed on the above.

I know, people in tights fighting crime and all that makes no sense, but a Cool Super-Fort at the North Pole with a Giant Golden Key? Superhero Club-Houses? That's risible.

Doc Savage did it first, and many Bond villains. Just play up how powerful and insane you'd need to be to think "Giant Golden Key - Good Idea" and you're ready for Iron.

It would be like trying to run an Iron Age version of Josey and the Pussy-Cats. Never the twain shall meet.

Play it for laughs and I'd get a kick out of an Iron Age Josey and the Pussy-Cats. Heck, sounds like a good Venture Brothers episode.

[Balabanto]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

Oh, god. I can see it now. They're all leather, firearms, and there's a sentient, overly hung cat in the background with white, smirking features, with Alexandra's arm around him.

 

There's bullet holes all over everything, and Alan is smoking a cigarette while Josie licks his ear...

 

The caption at the bottom of the page reads "Not your mother's long tails and ears for hats..."

[Brandi]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

My problem comes when (like Cable) a character has miriads of completely un-related powers. I have friends who used to play the Marvel Superheroes RPG. And I would cringe every time they would describe their characters to me. The reason for this (for people who don't know the game) is that characters were generated randomly Including powers. Thats how the game works. So you could end up with Claws, Metalline Skin, Gravity Bolts, and the ability to psichicly make pictures come to life. What kind of concept is that as a character?!?! It makes no sense, and IMO inevitably a lame character.

 

The trick-- and it's not an easy one-- is being able to unify those disparate ideas with a solid underlying concept. To paraphrase another RPG's superhero book: high DEX and STR, highly-enhanced Danger Sense, Clinging, and a IIF-based Entangle sounds pretty much like a mish-mash at first glance....

[Gideon]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

The trick-- and it's not an easy one-- is being able to unify those disparate ideas with a solid underlying concept. To paraphrase another RPG's superhero book: high DEX and STR' date=' highly-enhanced Danger Sense, Clinging, and a IIF-based Entangle sounds pretty much like a mish-mash at first glance....[/quote']

Spider-man I think does it well. Cable not so much.

[MandraketheBard]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

Just wanna put in a few thoughts, then all of you have fun ripping me to shreds (or agreeing with me, or whatever) if you like for I will not revisit this thread.

 

There are all sorts of reasons for disliking a character, or just for disliking what somone did with the character. here are a few of my greatest dislikes.

1) Wolverine - gets my vote for all-around worst. IMHO he is an example of the worst concepts of hero-making rolled into one. He fights with deadly weapons, he is pretty much indestructible, he seems to have little control (and in my opinion not much moral fiber) and he's a detriment, not an asset, to team coordination. The only thing good I can say about him is that he was considerably less cheesy and less obnoxiously anti-social in the X-Men movies (my wife forced me to watch).

2) Superman - I like Supes, and everything's been said before. My own opinion is that he was fine character, got a little stupid in the 50's and 60's (but kinda fun), then rebounded in the late 70's and early 80's. Let someone be printed long enough and someone's gonna do stupid stuff with the character...but Supes is still cool despite a few bad stories. Also, the whole thing someone said earlier about his morals and duty is spot on. Check out the portrayal in Superman Returns..got the mindset necessary to make Superman work spot on. Great movie.

3) Punisher - This guy is supposed to be a hero ? Yes, i know, I know, he's an anti-hero but let's get real. Comics are psychologically wish fulfillment for some people...so there must be a lot of people out there who wanna commit murder and call it justice.

4) Animal Man - Great hero, especially when they re-introduced him in the late 80's, but he's also a perfect example of what can go horrifically wrong when a comic gets too bizarre. The storylines that developed in the early 90's just became soap-operaish descents into just how sucky we can make 1 guy's life.

5) and finally, not the absolute worst, but definitely my least favorite...Spiderman - I'm sorry to be the first to say this here, but this comic ruined much of the genre for me. Many people hail the title for changing the face of comics, I despise it for the very same reason. Summary of Spiderman: My life sucks - I get beaten up - I do some good - no one appreciates me - I try to help - my life continues to suck....next month, even more sucking life...maybe after a few issues something can go right, so that we can take it away and achieve new and deeper levels of how much it sucks to be a superhero.

 

Okay, those are just a few thoughts from a comic reader who was alive when much of this stuff was first published. (man I feel old)

Cheers, folks, enjoy the comics (that's why they're here, whatever it is you like), and remember....it's just a ride.

[bwdemon]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

Spider-man I think does it well. Cable not so much.

 

"So, you're here to pitch a new character to me. The character's name is 'Cable.' His powers revolve around some kind of arm things like Dr. Octopus?"

 

"No."

 

"Really? Umm... is he able to slip into computer networks, hacking into them and traveling through the cables? I think we could sell that..."

 

"That's not how I envisioned the character, but I'll give him hacking abilities. I'll make him a cyborg, in fact. Ooh! I liked that techno-organic thing from New Mutants, let's give him that virus. I don't want it to mess him up though, so we'll give him control over it. I don't think he needs to travel in networks, though I like the travel thing... I know! He needs to travel through time! In fact, he'll be from the future!"

 

"So, he's a time-travelling hacker cyborg infected with the techno-organic virus? That's what his power set is?"

 

"No, those are just some things I want to work into the character."

 

"WTF? So that's not his power?"

 

"No."

 

"So what is his power?!"

 

"I don't know. I have this picture of a guy with a glowing eye and a weird-looking gun, though. Neat, huh?"

 

"Glowing eye... eyebeams... like Cyclops? He's been a pretty successful character."

 

"The eye glows, but he doesn't have any beams. You know what, though... I'm going to make Cyclops his dad. Ooh! And then Jean Grey can be his mom - I always liked them together. Then he can have psychic powers!"

 

"So our cyborg hacker from the future has psychic powers that he got from his mom? And his mom is Jean Grey?"

 

"Well, when you put it that way, it sounds so cliche. I'll make it a clone of his mom!"

 

"You say he's from the future and Cyclops and Jean-clone are his parents. He can't be from that far in the future, right?"

 

"I can work with this. We'll use an alternate future where Mr. Sinister clones Jean, who gets with Cyclops, and they have Cable. So we can put him further out in the future, we'll have a futurenanny come snatch him away and take him far into the future, clone him, and the clone will be turned evil, and... and..."

 

"And I need a drink..."

 

A few shots of tequila and drops of rohypnol later, Cable was set loose in the Marvel Universe.

[Brandi]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

Spider-man I think does it well. Cable not so much.

 

Exactamundo. (I often get the impression that Liefeld is not particularly good at anything comics-based, he's just so IN YOUR FACE XTREEM about it that he can't be ignored.)

[Weldun]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

5) and finally' date=' not the [i']absolute[/i] worst, but definitely my least favorite...Spiderman - I'm sorry to be the first to say this here, but this comic ruined much of the genre for me. Many people hail the title for changing the face of comics, I despise it for the very same reason. Summary of Spiderman: My life sucks - I get beaten up - I do some good - no one appreciates me - I try to help - my life continues to suck....next month, even more sucking life...maybe after a few issues something can go right, so that we can take it away and achieve new and deeper levels of how much it sucks to be a superhero.

Actually, while I can see your points, I think that it's Spiderman's struggle to do whats right dispite the fact that his life continues to suck (although, in the end, he gets MJ! ), that makes him such a compelling hero. My problem with Supes (although, clearly I don't hate him that much, as I fanatically watch Smallville) is that he has all the advantages. Spiderman persists in spite of his shortcommings, ovecomming not only the obstacles in front of him, but those that he bring to the situation himself. Supes has few hang-ups.

 

But now for some Supes-love. The thing I think keeps bringing me back to him, I believe, is that he continues to strive beyond what he has already done. He always looks to do more. He looks at the power he wields and wonders "Did I do enough. Did I try hard enough. I believe so, but I will endeavour do try harded in the future." He's introspective, constantly questioning his deeds, without getting to hung up about it, and brooding. (Okay, Clark does in Smallville, but hey, he's still young and will grow up one day.) I still prefer Spiderman, because he's the underdog. Where other supers have secret lairs and hidden fortresses, or mansions with freakin' jets parked under the basketball court, he has to make do with a hidden compartment in his bedroom closet.

 

But I have to admit, Cable and Bishop never really grabbed me, although in Cable's case, it might be my hate of Liefeld art.

[palaskar]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

I can't belive no-one posted Son Goku. Maybe because he's anime/manga, but look at his character motivations/personilty:

 

1.Fighting.

2.Training (so he can fight better.)

3.Eating (so he can keep training.)

4.Being nice. Because he was dropped on his head as a child.

 

I mean, I can't think of a flatter character ever in print than that, now that I've stopped watching DBZ (although I still want to see Goku's training under King Kai, just to see if I can incorporte into my own martial training.) I mean, look at the current Naruto series and see how even the psycho-killer Gaara gets depth of origin and character.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

No offense, but I didn't have to watch DragonBallZ to know it would suck.

 

It radiates the suckitude.

[Gideon]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

No offense' date=' but I didn't have to [i']watch[/i] DragonBallZ to know it would suck.

 

It radiates the suckitude.

 

I found the original DragonBall series to be a lot of fun (even if it did have a few to many urination jokes).

 

DBZ was fun for about the first 2 seasons. I realized the show was sucking when it took 8 episodes (thats 3 1/3 hours) for one fight to resolve.

 

Besides how good can a character (or the show he's in) be when the CREATOR keeps trying to kill him off, and only brings him back from the dead to stop the hate mail?

[wylodmayer]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

Okay, considering how many fans the show has, perhaps I was a little harsh.

 

But, yeah, I think any show with a three-plus hour fight... is not going to appeal to me very much.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

No offense' date=' but I didn't have to [i']watch[/i] DragonBallZ to know it would suck.

 

It radiates the suckitude.

 

Never watched the show but I think I saw a brief snippet of it once while changeing channels. All I saw was some sort of over-muscled martian dude yelling at some sort of midget. Weird.

[Gideon]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

Okay, considering how many fans the show has, perhaps I was a little harsh.

 

But, yeah, I think any show with a three-plus hour fight... is not going to appeal to me very much.

 

Oh, don't worry you weren't being overly harsh (at least IMO). I may have enjoyed the show for a while but as it progresses it just gets more and more rediculus.

 

That 8 episode fight was actually in season 1, and was edited for American TV when I watched it. Its actually about 9 to 9 1/2 in the oringinal.

 

As the show goes on, Son Goku (the main character) dies and comes back to life about 7 times.

 

Season 3 has such a complicated time travel story that people have needed flow-charts to follow the plot fully.

 

And people have complained about how the JLA exists only to kick the kryptonite away from Superman, well guess what Goku was inspired by Supes. And the basic plot of the show by the second half of season 2 is:

 

All the characters fight with the bad guy and his minions. The bad guy and his minions win, but they don't kill anyone (except maybe Goku). The bad guy gathers energy to transform. The good guys train so they can defeat the bad guy and his minions. The bad guy transforms. The good guys fight and defeat some minions while Goku stands in mid-air looking constipated and gathering energy. Goku shoots the main bad guy with his super-energy attack and vaporizes him.

[OddHat]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

And people have complained about how the JLA exists only to kick the kryptonite away from Superman, well guess what Goku was inspired by Supes. And the basic plot of the show by the second half of season 2 is:

 

There are Supes elements there, but Son Goku's inspiration mostly comes from the stories of the Monkey King. Except for the energy blasts, he's probably a bit less powerful.

 

Not that I'm a Dragon Ball fan, but I'm enough of a Monkey King fan to have taken a look.

[Balabanto]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

There's a whole bunch of choices. If you're political, Freedom Beast is still my fave.

 

If all you want is stupid, Super Green Beret gets the nod.

 

If you want morally deficient, the Punisher.

 

If you want logically unjustifiable...

 

Cassandra Cain Batgirl. Since David Cain makes no sense, Cassandra Cain makes even less. I know she has a LOT of fans. However, I buy this like I buy lard to slurp in front of my friends, namely, not at all.

[input.jack]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

I can't belive no-one posted Son Goku....

I mean, I can't think of a flatter character ever in print than that, now that I've stopped watching DBZ .

 

 

[Threadjack]

 

I lived for a few years in a town Behind the Redwood Curtain, in northern California. There is a game shop there, run by an -awesome- FLGS owner, who became a friend of mine. This guy is lightning smart, can tell you when -anything- game-related is going to come out (usually without having to look anything up), follows the trends in the industry, and I think he has a photographic memory.

 

Anecdote 1: I first met the shop owner (Lets call him "Harry"*) one afternoon when I had driven a friend up from Los Angeles to this town in northern California (about as far north of San Francisco as San Francisco is north of LA) for a doctor's appointment. (Long story. Dont ask).

 

My friend introduces me to Harry, and we say "hi", and chat for about ten minutes about comics in general and gaming. I mention Im a huge HERO fan. Then we have to go.

 

FIVE YEARS LATER I walk into his shop for the second time, having just moved to that town, and I am in the company of a -different- friend. Harry gives me a huge smile and says " Hey, Jack*! Havent seen you in a while! Welcome back. Hows the art going? Oh, by the way, theres a new HERO product that just came out this week. You might want to take a look at it"

 

He -remembered me-, in detail, from a single, ten minute conversation, five YEARS earlier.

 

I was impressed.

 

Anecdote number 2: My two room mates and I are hanging out in Harry's store. We are in the middle of a conversation about whats good and whats bad on TV, when the subject of DBZ comes up. Harry goes -ballistic-, and explains that his young son adores DBZ, and as a result he has had to watch it several times.

 

"I taped an episode and timed it. Three quarters of the episode is guys standing on hill tops going AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHG!!!! at each other!". he says. He tells us that it was the worst thing he had -ever- seen on television (Bo-bo-bo-bo-nosehair hadnt come to the States then).

 

As he is in mid tirade, the door chimes open and a young mother comes in. She looks around for a moment, then goes to the counter past us big hairy barbarians, to talk to Harry (who always is neatly attired and well groomed).

 

"My son is twelve", she tells him," and hes got a birthday coming up. Is there anything you can recommend that I could get for him?"

 

Harry doesnt even blink before saying," Well, Dragon Ball Z is very popular with kids that age right now. And we have this collectible card-game thats a -very- hot seller. Im pretty sure hed like that!"

 

The mother smiles and buys about six DBZ related items, on Harry's recommendation. She thanks Harry, smiles, and departs happy.

 

The door closes.

 

"MAN I hate that show." says he.

 

 

(This is why we call him Captain Capitalism)

 

 

[/Threadjack]

 

*The story you have just read is true. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. BUMMMMM BA-DUMP BUM!

[transmetahuman]

Re: Worst. Hero. Ever.

 

Besides how good can a character (or the show he's in) be when the CREATOR keeps trying to kill him off' date=' and only brings him back from the dead to stop the hate mail?[/quote']Like, say, Sherlock Holmes?