Stacking a power?

[lynnlefey]

Let's say I wanted to create a spell that added 1d6 to an existing RKA, for instance, representing an enchanted arrow or something. I'm not talking about linking a second RKA to the first, since I imagine the two would only have to penetrate DEF once. Suggestions?

[Manic Typist]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

Aid, I would imagine, would be a good place to start.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

If the GM permitted the following is a build we've used before:

 

+1D6, KA; Usable By Others, Only To Add To An Existing Attack (-1/4)

 

It would work like a Partially Limited Power.

[Rapier]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

If the GM permitted the following is a build we've used before:

 

+1D6, KA; Usable By Others, Only To Add To An Existing Attack (-1/4)

 

It would work like a Partially Limited Power.

 

That's probably how I would do it.

 

I dislike Aids and Drains. It's too much record keeping for me.

 

For instance, I realise that you shouldn't purchase straight out CHAR as a power (eg +10 STR) but should instead purchase a STR Aid. But +10 STR is MUCH easier to deal with than remembering and keeping track of faid rates.

 

I would stick with the, IMM (in my mind), simpler version of +x.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

That's probably how I would do it.

 

I dislike Aids and Drains. It's too much record keeping for me.

 

For instance, I realise that you shouldn't purchase straight out CHAR as a power (eg +10 STR) but should instead purchase a STR Aid. But +10 STR is MUCH easier to deal with than remembering and keeping track of faid rates.

 

I would stick with the, IMM (in my mind), simpler version of +x.

 

Aid has it's uses. This isn't one of them. Drain is one of my favorite "Bite Me" Powers to put on characters though.

[lynnlefey]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

Thanks all for the input. I've got many years playing Champs (4th Ed.), but am just coming back to Hero, and getting into the mindset of how it would be best used for FH is a little bit of gear shifting. I appreciate the assistance. Expect more inane questions in the near future!

[Markdoc]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

If the GM permitted the following is a build we've used before:

 

+1D6, KA; Usable By Others, Only To Add To An Existing Attack (-1/4)

 

It would work like a Partially Limited Power.

 

Yeah, but's not rules-legal - 1d6 of HKA useable by others gives you a 1d6 HKA - it doesn't expand the size of an existing attack. I certainly would NOT allow a construct like this as GM, because if you allow something like this, it *will* cause you problems, guaranteed: it' an ultra-cheap way to blow out the size of attacks, with all the problems that entails.

 

I'd go for Aid. If you don't want any record keeping go for standard effect. 5d6 of Aid to HKA, standard effect: 25 real, probably 5-8 points depending on what limits the player places on it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

Yeah' date=' but's not rules-legal - 1d6 of HKA useable by others gives you a 1d6 HKA - it doesn't expand the size of an existing attack. I certainly would NOT allow a construct like this as GM, because if you allow something like this, it *will* cause you problems, guaranteed: it' an ultra-cheap way to blow out the size of attacks, with all the problems that entails.[/quote']

 

For an extensive discussion (or three) of the problems this can cause, run a forum search for the phrase "deadly blow", a talent which adds to the base damage of a weapon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

Yeah, but's not rules-legal - 1d6 of HKA useable by others gives you a 1d6 HKA - it doesn't expand the size of an existing attack. I certainly would NOT allow a construct like this as GM, because if you allow something like this, it *will* cause you problems, guaranteed: it' an ultra-cheap way to blow out the size of attacks, with all the problems that entails.

 

I'd go for Aid. If you don't want any record keeping go for standard effect. 5d6 of Aid to HKA, standard effect: 25 real, probably 5-8 points depending on what limits the player places on it.

 

cheers, Mark

 

It is undoubtably something that could cause issues. Which would be why I started my post with "If the GM Permitted".

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

I had another thought.

 

+15 STR, Usable By Others, No Figured, Only to Determine Damage.

[Markdoc]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

It is undoubtably something that could cause issues. Which would be why I started my post with "If the GM Permitted".

 

Yep, I saw that. I was just pointing out that as a GM I would certainly not permit it under any circumstances whatever. Note, that I *would* permit an Aid-based solution: it's not that I'm against increased damage, just against unbalancing approaches. That fact this suggestion would do what Aid is supposed to do - but much more cheaply, and with fewer limitations, should be a big red warning sign.

 

cheers, Mark

[lynnlefey]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

Hmmm... An aid to RKA that could add 2d6 (doubling a damage on a heavy longbow, for instance) would cost 100 points, whereas just buying a 4d6 RKA would only cost 60.

 

As this is supposed to represent an arrow that has been enchanted, I think imight just go with building the whole attack power as an RKA, instead of trying to IMPROVE an existing power.

 

The STR idea grates at me as the way to solve this problem, as no amount of additional strength would add to the damage of the arrow shot.

 

How much do you all think a custom advantage (stacks with base damage) would be worth? Since 2d6RKA+2D6RKA costs the same number of active points as 4D6RKA, I can't imagine it'd be all that much of an advantage. At most 1/2?

[lynnlefey]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

It would?

2D6 RKA AID (using standard effect)= 50 points

What's the problem?

 

Rob

 

RKA 2d6 would require 30 points standard effect, right? That's 10d6, at 10 points per die. That's 100 points (revised 5th ed.)

[UltraRob]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

RKA 2d6 would require 30 points standard effect' date=' right? That's 10d6, at 10 points per die. That's 100 points (revised 5th ed.)[/quote']

 

Sigh. Yep. (I deleted my message once I'd double checked, but too late.) I'm a 4th player, and keep forgetting AID is 10pts for 1D6 now!

 

You're right, that does seem rather expensive considering how limited AID now is. It's almost a "why would anyone use this?" power now.

 

Rob

[lynnlefey]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

Well, I think mechanically speaking, Aid is exactly what I'm looking for, but in this case, its rediculously expensive. As I pointed out earler, it'd be cheaper to buy the RKA power at full 4d6, than buying a power that added 2d6 to an existing 2d6. And, it's not even a LITTLE cheaper.

 

UltraRob, yeah... sorry to be so quick on the draw there.

[UltraRob]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

Well' date=' I think mechanically speaking, Aid is exactly what I'm looking for, but in this case, its rediculously expensive. As I pointed out earler, it'd be cheaper to buy the RKA power at full 4d6, than buying a power that added 2d6 to an existing 2d6. And, it's not even a LITTLE cheaper. [/quote']

 

Agreed, it seems wrong when the cheapest build is to just buy the power at full level (say 4D6), and then say it's just there to override the normal damage of that weapon. However, I guess the alternative is open to massive abuse, ala Deadly Blow.

 

UltraRob, yeah... sorry to be so quick on the draw there.

 

Nah, it was my screw up and you just winged me...gonna go lay down now...

 

Rob

[Markdoc]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

Yeah, the difference with the Aid is that it:

 

a) maxes out at 6 points per d6, so your "standard effect" gives you 1d6 per 5d6 boost. Thus 100 points gives 30 active each time it's used - cast it twice and you are adding 60 active or +4d6. That means a heavy longbow can be charged up for several shots at 6d6 RKA

and:

can be used on anyone's weapon, meaning that if the caster wants to, he can have several colleagues raining down artillery-style death with their bows - he just needs to cast a small Aid once per turn to keep them at max

 

Buying a 4d6 RKA - athough it'd work well to make a super-archer - only makes the person who bought it into a super-archer. He could of course buy it usable by others, but if he wants to keep it himself and "share" the power, then he needs to start adding UBO. At that point - well, whaddaya know, it's starting to cost about the same as Aid.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Edit: yes, it's an expensive power. It damn well should be - adding 2d6 to any RKA in a fantasy game is essentially the same as removing any protection due to normal armour. Also it adds to *base* damage. Cast this on a greatsword and a strong fighter should be able to add in another 1d6 from STR and CSL, giving him a maximum HTH potential of 7d6 HKA before any adds from martial arts .... Do you really need characters who can do 8d6 HKA in your FH game?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

I could be wrong, but I thought if you used Standard Effect you gave up the maximum cap for a set level each time?

 

Another thought could be to use Succor.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

Well, I think mechanically speaking, Aid is exactly what I'm looking for, but in this case, its rediculously expensive. As I pointed out earler, it'd be cheaper to buy the RKA power at full 4d6, than buying a power that added 2d6 to an existing 2d6. And, it's not even a LITTLE cheaper.

 

UltraRob, yeah... sorry to be so quick on the draw there.

 

EDIT: I agree with Markdoc (saw his post after).

 

The Aid is not so expensive as it first appears. Note that a 10d6 Aid at standard effect can technically add 60 points, not just 30. Standard effect means you always roll a 30, but two phases rolling 30 gets you to the maximum addition of 60. Slap +1/4 Autofire on that Aid so it fires two shots at once, and you need 5d6 Aid, Autofire (2 shots), standard effect to add 2d6. That's 5d6 = 50 x 1.25 = 62 points.

 

The RKA is not as cheap as you think. Your 60 point RKA can only be used by you. In order to allow others to use it, it must be Usable by Others. That needs to apply to multiple targets for more than one KA to be augmented at the same time. If it's to stay augmented if you are KO'd, it also needs to be Persistent.

 

If you just want to augment yourself, buy the 4d6 RKA. If you want to augment others, especially a lot of others, it's more expensive. And it should be!

[lynnlefey]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

After long deliberation, I have concluded that AID would require so much painful shoehorning and so many absurd limitations to make it be what I want, that I will simply use RKA and give it an advantage modifier to make it stack with the existing arrow's RKA. Or, maybe buy the full RAK and limit it to override the normal weapon's damage. Either way, both solutions are vastly more elegant than trying to shoehorn AID into the solution, it seems.

[Markdoc]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

After long deliberation' date=' I have concluded that AID would require so much painful shoehorning and so many absurd limitations to make it be what I want, that I will simply use RKA and give it an advantage modifier to make it stack with the existing arrow's RKA. Or, maybe buy the full RAK and limit it to override the normal weapon's damage. Either way, both solutions are vastly more elegant than trying to shoehorn AID into the solution, it seems.[/quote']

 

Yep - but as noted by Hugh above, with the first option, essentially what you are doing is recreating Deadly Blow, which is pretty much universally deemed to be broken - and in several cases discussed on these boards has proved a game breaker. I'd definately choose the second.

 

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Stacking a power?

 

Yep - but as noted by Hugh above, with the first option, essentially what you are doing is recreating Deadly Blow, which is pretty much universally deemed to be broken - and in several cases discussed on these boards has proved a game breaker. I'd definately choose the second.

 

cheers, Mark

 

However, to play devils advocate for a moment, if you've decided to allow the Deadly Blow Talent in your game, then this is stone cold easy to do... look at the sidebar in FH on the first page of the Talent section about maikng spells from talents, use Deadly Blow, and go for it.

 

 

It'll be WAY unbalanced compared to an AID or Succor solution, but can be done as long as you're careful about maintaining the campaign feel you want.