COM - What does it mean?

[Trebuchet]

Re: COM - What dose it mean in real life (well ... real 'gaming' life anyway).

 

How about:

3. COM represents the degree to which most others will find the character's appearance aesthetically pleasing in one way or another.

 

I don't see why so many people feel that COM has to relate to sexual attraction/arousal/etc. I can think of plenty of people of both sexes who I'm not sexually attracted to who I would rate a high COM score. Surely even those of us who cannot 'see' (or refuse to admit) this type of non-sexual attractive appearance in others can at least understand the effect of a low COM score - we all know and notice especially ugly people.

I'd say more, but I think spring crush has literally bruised my frontal lobe.

Personally, I've always kinda though this was one aspect of a character that D&D had right: Charisma. What the heck was wrong with having a single stat that represented how most people interacted with the character? Call it personality, charisma, personal magnetism, whatever. I know that's heresy, but that's how I see it.

 

I have long treated COM in Hero as a composite score of raw physical appearance and personality; and I think most of my co-GMs do the same. A character with a high score could be very attractive physically but have a very average personality. A character with an average score might be very attractive until he opens his mouth and demonstrates what an ass he really is. And a character can be physically unprepossessing but still possess incredible personal magnetism and thus rate a better-than-average score. Many examples of such individuals exist in history and fiction.

[Sean Waters]

Re: COM - What dose it mean in real life (well ... real 'gaming' life anyway).

 

Personally' date=' I've always kinda though this was one aspect of a character that D&D had right: [i']Charisma.[/i] What the heck was wrong with having a single stat that represented how most people interacted with the character? Call it personality, charisma, personal magnetism, whatever. I know that's heresy, but that's how I see it.

 

I have long treated COM in Hero as a composite score of raw physical appearance and personality; and I think most of my co-GMs do the same. A character with a high score could be very attractive physically but have a very average personality. A character with an average score might be very attractive until he opens his mouth and demonstrates what an ass he really is. And a character can be physically unprepossessing but still possess incredible personal magnetism and thus rate a better-than-average score. Many examples of such individuals exist in history and fiction.

 

I think that Hero just splits Charisma (or, for those unfortunates not blessed with it: charisn'tma) into COM and PRE, or Cor and Awe, as I like to call them

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Personally' date=' I've always kinda though this was one aspect of a character that D&D had right: [i']Charisma.[/i] What the heck was wrong with having a single stat that represented how most people interacted with the character? Call it personality, charisma, personal magnetism, whatever. I know that's heresy, but that's how I see it.

 

I have long treated COM in Hero as a composite score of raw physical appearance and personality; and I think most of my co-GMs do the same. A character with a high score could be very attractive physically but have a very average personality. A character with an average score might be very attractive until he opens his mouth and demonstrates what an ass he really is. And a character can be physically unprepossessing but still possess incredible personal magnetism and thus rate a better-than-average score. Many examples of such individuals exist in history and fiction.

 

I think that Hero just splits Charisma (or' date=' for those unfortunates not blessed with it: charisn'tma) into COM and PRE, or Cor and Awe, as I like to call them [/quote']

 

I agree with Sean. Adolf Hitler wasn't much to look at, but he sure had PRE. Lots of other great leaders would fall into this camp - high PRE, average or low COM. I'm sure lots of examples of high COM, low or no PRE also exist.

[Trebuchet]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

I agree with Sean. Adolf Hitler wasn't much to look at' date=' but he sure had PRE. Lots of other great leaders would fall into this camp - high PRE, average or low COM. I'm sure lots of examples of high COM, low or no PRE also exist.[/quote']I don't entirely disagree (Hitler was the specific example I was think of as a who is "physically unprepossessing but still possess[es] incredible personal magnetism" example), but my general feeling is that given the lack of in-system use of COM, Hero System would have been just as well off without it or simply sticking with a Charisma stat. My impression has always been that the early creators of Hero split Charisma into PRE and COM for no reason other than to differentiate Hero from D&D.

 

I'd like to either see COM get axed entirely or see some official uses for it within the system. Yes, it has some applications for role-playing, but I don't think good role-playing should require characteristics (at least not the kind on paper).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

I agree that CM needs an official purpose. It doesn't need to be much (it's cheap, after all). I like the use of a complimentary COM roll for interaction skills in situations where physical attractiveness would assist in getting the desired result.

 

This might include conversation in person, but exclude telephone conversation, for example. I think there are enough studies that show attractive people get treated differently to support this use from a "realistic" perspective.

[OddHat]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

I agree that CM needs an official purpose. It doesn't need to be much (it's cheap' date=' after all). I like the use of a complimentary COM roll for interaction skills in situations where physical attractiveness would assist in getting the desired result.[/quote']

 

I use this approach, and have even allowed COM attacks in comedy games (using the PRE attack rules and moving effects one step down on the chart). It works well.

[Vondy]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

 

I'd like to either see COM get axed entirely or see some official uses for it within the system. Yes, it has some applications for role-playing, but I don't think good role-playing should require characteristics (at least not the kind on paper).

 

At this point I don't use COM as a Characteristic. I just model the desired effects. In a lot of games I use a talent based on the current reputation perk.

[casualplayer]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

COM is the sneaky munchkin's way of netting points, by buying up COM then taking Dist. Features: Hawtness, Hunted: Opposite Gender, Vuln.: x 2 STUN from attacks to the face, etc. Spend 10 pts on COM, rake in ~50 pts of Disadvantages.

 

Other than that, it's flavor text, a visual aid, a little mental hook to hang your character's picture on.

[pinecone]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Thats how I use it...lots of small things...even a failed streetwise might result in a dire threat instead of a severe beating...If I drive drunk I'm in trouble, if Hawt chick #9 drives drunk, there is little consiquence.....thats life....

[Trebuchet]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Oh, I agree there are plenty of ways to plausibly use COM. My gripe is that there's no official way to use this Characteristic. If it has no direct effect on game mechanics, then why have it at all? Reworking it into something akin to charisma or simply buying it as a Perk would seem to make more sense.

[Outsider]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Other options :

 

Use it as PRE that only works on people attracted to your gender. Thus a high COM man dealing with a heterosexual woman or homosexual man can use either his PRE or COM (whichever is higher) to determine his interaction skill rolls. Basically COM becomes PRE with a -1 limitation as to who it applies to. Then allow the lower of the two to be used as a complimentary.

 

So Ms. Haute-Chic (10 PRE, 20 COM) gets pulled over & tries to talk her way out of the ticket. Normally she'd have a Persuasion roll of 11-, but since the cop pulling her over is a heterosexual male, she exploits her looks and gets a 13- roll. If the cop had been a woman, she'd have to stick with the 11-.

 

If you wanted to you could have high com work in the opposite direction against the people it -doesnt- apply to. So 5 points of COM becomes +2 vs people attracted to your gender & -1 against those who you'd be 'competition' to...

[Sean Waters]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Other options :

 

Use it as PRE that only works on people attracted to your gender. Thus a high COM man dealing with a heterosexual woman or homosexual man can use either his PRE or COM (whichever is higher) to determine his interaction skill rolls. Basically COM becomes PRE with a -1 limitation as to who it applies to. Then allow the lower of the two to be used as a complimentary.

 

So Ms. Haute-Chic (10 PRE, 20 COM) gets pulled over & tries to talk her way out of the ticket. Normally she'd have a Persuasion roll of 11-, but since the cop pulling her over is a heterosexual male, she exploits her looks and gets a 13- roll. If the cop had been a woman, she'd have to stick with the 11-.

 

If you wanted to you could have high com work in the opposite direction against the people it -doesnt- apply to. So 5 points of COM becomes +2 vs people attracted to your gender & -1 against those who you'd be 'competition' to...

 

The trouble with COM is that ANY of these is a valid scenario:

 

MsHC is pulled by a cop who, swayed by her 20 COM, lets her off her ticket.

MsHC is pulled by a cop who notices her high COM but has a job to do and writes her a ticket.

MsHC is pulled by a cop who is bitter because 'he'll never attract a woman like that' and he contrives to arrest her.

 

COM is probably just flavour, whichever way you look at it because it does not have an effect that is consistent, like PRE would, except, arguably, a high COM makes you more noticeable and memorable - what you do with that is up to you and the GM.

[OddHat]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

The trouble with COM is that ANY of these is a valid scenario:

 

MsHC is pulled by a cop who, swayed by her 20 COM, lets her off her ticket.

 

I'd allow that if her COM was used in a complimentary skill roll with Persuasion to convince the cop to let her go.

 

MsHC is pulled by a cop who notices her high COM but has a job to do and writes her a ticket.

 

Her Persuasion roll was blown, even with the complimentary skill roll.

 

MsHC is pulled by a cop who is bitter because 'he'll never attract a woman like that' and he contrives to arrest her.

 

The cop in question has a fairly nasty psych limit.

 

COM is probably just flavour, whichever way you look at it because it does not have an effect that is consistent, like PRE would, except, arguably, a high COM makes you more noticeable and memorable - what you do with that is up to you and the GM.

If the studies on attractiveness and salaries are anything to go by, COM has a few fairly persistent effects.

 

COM is complicated and tough to 100% pin down, but then so are INT, DEX, STR, and pretty much all the rest. That it's partially subjective does make it trickier,.

[pinecone]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Oh' date=' I agree there are plenty of ways to plausibly [i']use[/i] COM. My gripe is that there's no official way to use this Characteristic. If it has no direct effect on game mechanics, then why have it at all? Reworking it into something akin to charisma or simply buying it as a Perk would seem to make more sense.

 

I have to disagree...I always get my back up when I hear the "Is that Official?" thang...it's a role playing game...it has guidlines. In my mind Nothing is "official". If everything is a solid established "rule" ...why play? It's an algolrithim, not a game...

 

PS...I sound kinda harsh.....lack of sleep. I do disagree, but I'm not yelling..

[pinecone]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Other options :

 

Use it as PRE that only works on people attracted to your gender. Thus a high COM man dealing with a heterosexual woman or homosexual man can use either his PRE or COM (whichever is higher) to determine his interaction skill rolls. Basically COM becomes PRE with a -1 limitation as to who it applies to. Then allow the lower of the two to be used as a complimentary.

 

So Ms. Haute-Chic (10 PRE, 20 COM) gets pulled over & tries to talk her way out of the ticket. Normally she'd have a Persuasion roll of 11-, but since the cop pulling her over is a heterosexual male, she exploits her looks and gets a 13- roll. If the cop had been a woman, she'd have to stick with the 11-.

 

If you wanted to you could have high com work in the opposite direction against the people it -doesnt- apply to. So 5 points of COM becomes +2 vs people attracted to your gender & -1 against those who you'd be 'competition' to...

 

Except even a hetro woman will more than likely give the Hawt chick a break...studys have verified people naturally trust and like attractive people...

[Vondy]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Except even a hetro woman will more than likely give the Hawt chick a break...studys have verified people naturally trust and like attractive people...

 

Good looking men are more likely to be promoted by other (heterosexual) men, as well.

[Outsider]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Ok, so drop the "attraction" qualifier then. I don't know that "skills only" PRE deserves a -1 limitation though. Depends on how much the campaign uses Presence Attacks.

 

My main goal in using it as a substitution for PRE rather than as a complimentary is to reduce the number of rolls one needs to make.

 

Another idea :

Get rid of Comliness as a stat & have 'good looks' become the special effect of 5 point PRE Skill Level. If it wont apply to many PRE skills, slap a 1/2 limitation on it, making it a 3(.333) point level.

+1 = good looking

+2 = extremely good looking

+3 = super good looking (ie, can't have this level of looks outside if you have NCM, unless maybe you pay double)

etc.

[Markdoc]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

I use this approach' date=' and have even allowed COM attacks in comedy games (using the PRE attack rules and moving effects one step down on the chart). It works well.[/quote']

 

Actually, I use it like this in non-comedic games too. Obviously a COM attack is not going to get an angry fighter to draw back in alarm or persuade allies to attack Dr. Doom, but (to take a real situation that came up in a game) I allowed the PC with the high COM to persuade the king's advisor to "meet her later" based purely on bodaciousness: if she had a related skills such as seduction or persuasion, I could certainly allow an augment, the same way I would with PRE.

 

Basically I envisage COM as the exact equivalent of limited PRE - it costs less because it is applicable in more restricted circumstances. However, it does apply in some circumstances where PRE does not - the lecherous old advisor would have been most disinclined to open a side door in the palace late at night to the charismatic, but downright ugly male priest.

 

To keep with the Hitler analogy, he might have been charismatic - but would you let him buy you a drink at the bar before going back to his place for a fling? (shudder) It might actually work - charisma can sometimes substitute for comliness, but the reverse is rarely true.

 

cheers, Mark

[OddHat]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

To keep with the Hitler analogy, he might have been charismatic - but would you let him buy you a drink at the bar before going back to his place for a fling?

 

Depends on how hard up I am. A man can get mighty lonely in Berlin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Basically I envisage COM as the exact equivalent of limited PRE - it costs less because it is applicable in more restricted circumstances. However' date=' it does apply in some circumstances where PRE does not - the lecherous old advisor would have been most disinclined to open a side door in the palace late at night to the charismatic, but downright ugly male priest. [/quote']

 

Is that a function of limited PRE, or of the Lecherous psych limit?

[OddHat]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Is that a function of limited PRE' date=' or of the Lecherous psych limit?[/quote']

 

Like so much else in HERO, it could be either. It could also be the result of a successful PRE-based Seduction or Persuasion roll, depending on how it was role played and arbitrated. Or Mind Control, for people who hate using skills to affect NPCs actions.

 

However, I'd be fine with it as one possible result of a COM attack, or a Seduction roll with a complimentary COM roll.

[Markdoc]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

Is that a function of limited PRE' date=' or of the Lecherous psych limit?[/quote']

 

Both of course - you need a lower score on the COM attack if they are already inclined to go with the idea suggested!

 

cheers, Mark

[Midas]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

slightly different topic.

 

In the superheroic genre, there is no NCM, and several stats have no maximum except for campaign limits. You can have a 70 STR, or 70 DEX, even 70 INT or EGO, GM permitting.

 

In the Strikeforce campaign book, there is an "everybody's kid sister" character with a COM of 70. Granted, we're talking about second or third edition here, but...

 

I can't even visualize a COM of 70, I doubt that any comic book artist in history could draw her. But that aside, what would the game effects of that kind of COM be?

 

Midas

[OddHat]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

I can't even visualize a COM of 70' date=' I doubt that any comic book artist in history could draw her. But that aside, what would the game effects of that kind of COM be?[/quote']

 

She would have a 23- Complimentary Skill Roll based on COM that she could use with interaction skills at the GM's option. So, if she had Persuasion 11-, and she was trying to persuade in a friendly manner where the GM thought her looks would be a factor, she'd be very likely to get what she wanted.

[L. Marcus]

Re: COM - What does it mean?

 

. . . Like the President's Little Black Suitcase.