Guest Goradin Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... I think the best urban roleplaying product was Waterdeep. I think of urban fantasy I think of Waterdeep, Sanctuary and Fafhrd and Grey Mouser or Lankmar. Those have become the archtypes for city fantasy. Byzantine intrigue, danger around every corner, nocturnal predators in the street and town guards to fight if you get out of line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... That said, mind if I quote this on my LJ? I've been wanting to air some comments about Miss Lackey (and other authors of her stripe) for some time, and you said everything I could have said with far more style and economy. Thanks! Be my guest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... because she writes like bad fanfiction and dresses like her sparkly fairy poo characters. Sparklypoo Princess herald girl cantered up on her sparkly pony: 'My pony is magic and loves me! the people in my village don't like me but secretly their jealous, see:' A gruff fat bald tavern keeper walked up and into the scene. "I don't like her, but, secretly I'm jealous, why doesn't my mule talk to me?" the princess girl turned volupuously towards the ugly barkeep. 'My pony talks to me.' A tear rolled down his fat and hairy cheek and he spoke; 'I am filled with envy.' Sulu voice: Oh my. Rep-worthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... I think the best urban roleplaying product was Waterdeep. I think of urban fantasy I think of Waterdeep, Sanctuary and Fafhrd and Grey Mouser or Lankmar. Those have become the archtypes for city fantasy. Byzantine intrigue, danger around every corner, nocturnal predators in the street and town guards to fight if you get out of line. In my mind I can understand what you mean. But to me I just don't grok pre-steam as "urban". Just really big towns. I have run successful games in ancient or medieval cities, but they are pretty much just larger versions of a town with a healthy increase in crime and political intrigue. I begin to think of it as "Urban Fantasy" when I start factoring in modern tech: steam, electricity, cars, subways, common use of iron/steel everywhere, aircraft, trains, 20 story plus buildings, telephones and so on. Yes Constantinople and Rome were indeed "urban", but nothing happening there in a RPG is handled significantly different from any where else. While using magic in a more modern urban zone brings many problems. Especially the common use of ferrous metals. Just an opinion of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... I'm curious if Fullmetal Alchemist is defined as "urban fantasy" to you, if that's your definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... I'm curious if Fullmetal Alchemist is defined as "urban fantasy" to you' date=' if that's your definition.[/quote'] Trust the Owl to come-up with a tough one I have really watched many of episodes of FA. But with the background and clothes looking like late 1800's to early 1900's and my seeing trolley's and an actual car once I would say Yes. To me it is "Urban Fantasy" because it takes place in the industrial age. about the only reason I have to say "maybe not" is the story seems to take place in either in small towns or villages rather than an actual "city". Not a clear answer, but as close as I think I'll get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Sulu voice: Oh my. Rep-worthy. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Sulu voice: Oh my. Rep-worthy. Only if your standards are very very low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Oh no, I perfectly captured her writing and fashion sense. Really it's like looking at a mirror of suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Trust the Owl to come-up with a tough one I have really watched many of episodes of FA. But with the background and clothes looking like late 1800's to early 1900's and my seeing trolley's and an actual car once I would say Yes. To me it is "Urban Fantasy" because it takes place in the industrial age. about the only reason I have to say "maybe not" is the story seems to take place in either in small towns or villages rather than an actual "city". Not a clear answer, but as close as I think I'll get I would say that the majority of the events happen within cities, and the movie blurs the line even further, where that's concerned. I think where I'd hesitate to call it urban fantasy is the fact that alchemy has a basis in science, not magic. While its effects seem magical, there are scientific principles at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... I would say that the majority of the events happen within cities' date=' and the movie blurs the line even further, where that's concerned. I think where I'd hesitate to call it urban fantasy is the fact that alchemy has a basis in science, not magic. While its effects seem magical, there are scientific principles at work.[/quote'] My post should have said "haven't really watched many" I'll will bow to your greater knowledge of the series. Of course magic "as" science has been the basis of a few good urban fantasy books I've read. Spence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... My post should have said "haven't really watched many" I'll will bow to your greater knowledge of the series. Of course magic "as" science has been the basis of a few good urban fantasy books I've read. Spence Heh. ^ v ^ It's a good series. I was surprised how easily I was sucked in; I haven't liked a series that much since I was just a little otaku. Anyway. I can see someone calling it magic. After all, there's nothing that LOOKS like science in the effects; it looks more like a magical spell being performed. And if it is science, it's rubbery science, at best. Hmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... I think the best urban roleplaying product was Waterdeep. I think of urban fantasy I think of Waterdeep, Sanctuary and Fafhrd and Grey Mouser or Lankmar. Those have become the archtypes for city fantasy. Byzantine intrigue, danger around every corner, nocturnal predators in the street and town guards to fight if you get out of line. Yes. That's what Urban Fantasy *should* mean. Because "urban" means "in a city". "Urban" doesn't mean "in a modern setting," or "with at least 20th (or 19th) century technology," or even "in a modern city." We need a term for "fantasy in a modern setting" that is *accurate*. Urban is not the correct word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Yes. That's what Urban Fantasy *should* mean. Because "urban" means "in a city". "Urban" doesn't mean "in a modern setting' date='" or "with at least 20th (or 19th) century technology," or even "in a modern city." We need a term for "fantasy in a modern setting" that is *accurate*. Urban is not the correct word[/quote'] Well, fantasy in the modernis one of the very important parts of Magic Realism as a genre... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Either that - or we just convince people to stop associating fantasy with things in the past. Fantasy should not imply medieval. And it doesn't. There's "medieval fantasy" - which, let's face it, is the great majority of fantasy - and "modern day fantasy". "Urban fantasy," to take the term literally, could be either. Cities have been around for thousands of years. Just because Ur and Jericho and Troy and Constantinople and Pompeii weren't as large as New York or Los Angeles or Tokyo doesn't make them any less urban. For fantasy in a modern (or close-to-modern) setting, I'd prefer to use the term "Modern Fantasy". The only problem with that term is that some might assume it means "fantasy *written* in modern times" as opposed to *set* in modern times. To make it more clear, we could call it "modern setting fantasy" which is a little too long, so I'm settling on "Modern Day Fantasy" as my term of choice. I'm not going to call my sex, my "gender." I'm not going to call a spider, an "insect." I'm not going to call pork, "white meat." I'm not going to call a handicapped person, "disabled." I'm not going to call a terrorist, a "militant." And I'm not going to call fantasy set in modern times, "urban" fantasy. Though you may be well within your rights to call me "pedantic" or "nitpicking." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Though you may be well within your rights to call me "pedantic" or "nitpicking." Then I shall. Actually, I'm more curious as to why you don't have an avatar showing up anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Then I shall. Actually, I'm more curious as to why you don't have an avatar showing up anymore. He's hiding from the Nitpick police and doesn't want anyone to know what he looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Yes. That's what Urban Fantasy *should* mean. Because "urban" means "in a city". "Urban" doesn't mean "in a modern setting' date='" or "with at least 20th (or 19th) century technology," or even "in a modern city." We need a term for "fantasy in a modern setting" that is *accurate*. Urban is not the correct word[/quote'] "Urban fantasy" is the correct term, inasmuch as "fantasy" is the correct term to refer to "stories about magic" in the context of publishing. Just as the term "fantasy" has different meanings in different contexts, so does, in this particular context, the term "urban". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... "fantasy roleplaying game" - off the top of your head' date=' what do you think the standard time period is that everyone says?[/quote'] The "standard" time period would be quasi-medieval to quasi-ancient. But that does preclude other time periods. Champions is a fantasy roleplaying game Dark Champions is a fantasy roleplaying game Star Hero is a fantasy roleplaying game Pulp Hero is a fantasy roleplaying game WTF? I'd say you're the one who's "downright wrong" here. Champions is *not* a fantasy roleplaying game. It's a superhero roleplaying game. Dark Champions is a dark or street-level superhero roleplaying game - not fantasy. Star Hero is a science fiction - not fantasy - roleplaying game. Pulp Hero is not a fantasy roleplaying game; it's a "pulp fiction" roleplaying game. Do you think when people think "fantasy" that they think "Traveller" or "Star Trek" or "Star Wars"? I think not. Of course not. What are you talking about? When people think "fantasy" they think "Lord of the Rings" or "Conan" or "Harry Potter". Two of those are set in a quasi-medieval setting, and one is in a modern setting. Just because science fiction is a subset of fantasy - do most people actually know that? I think most people disagree with that. I do, for one. Scifi and fantasy are two different genres. Sure, they sometimes overlap, but so can any two genres. Even the powers that be at HERO Games think their different genres, That's why Star Hero is its own line, not a subset of the Fantasy Hero line. How often do people say a book is "medieval science fiction"? I would guess they say it as often as it is appropriate. I can't think of any medieval science fiction books off-hand. Oh! I just thought of one that might count: "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court." It isn't really fantasy - there's no magic or fantastic monsters, but there are scifi elements: time-travel, technology far more advanced than the setting, etc. I suppose Frankenstein might also qualify - there's no magic, just advanced technology, but I guess it's not really medieval. Even if you think neither of these qualify, it is certainly conceivable for someone to write a book set in medieval times where someone introduces far-more-advanced-than-medieval-technology. Such a book would accurately be called "medieval science fiction." Common usage and language drift. Being pedantic about the meanings of words is a waste of everyone's time. Deal. Words have meanings. When we get sloppy with the meanings of words, communication breaks down. Language only drifts if we let it. "Urban" does not mean "modern" to the general population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Words have meanings. When we get sloppy with the meanings of words, communication breaks down. Language only drifts if we let it. "Urban" does not mean "modern" to the general population. Why yes they do Phil Perhaps a trip to ye old dictionary would be in order. Since in at least one those wonderful tomes the definition of "fantasy" is: {begin drum roll} 1. Imagination, esp. when unrestrained. 2. a daydream or illusion. 3. fiction based on highly imaginative characters and premises. 4. a fantasia. {end drum roll} Under the "meaning" of the word. All RPG's are in fact "fantasy". Just like "Steampunk" has taken on the meaning of Victorian Era RPG with steam powered technology (mechs, spaceships) ala Space 1889 which makes no sense if you base it on the word. "Steam" is OK, but "punk" is generally taken to be related guys with spiky hair and nose studs. How it came to mean anything Victorian I'll never understand. But regardless, when I read a description that says Steampunk 80% are along that line. Urban Fantasy has taken on the meaning of Modern City fantasy 80% of the time. I always say 80% because people will always find the exceptions Champions, Dark Champions, Star Hero, Pulp Hero, Fantasy Hero, D&D, Mutants and Masterminds, Cyberpunk, Traveller, and Mage: the Ascension are all "fantasy" RPG's. They may not be that under your personal opinion of what they should be called. But by "definition" of the word, they are indeed fantasy. But hey, I don't consider D20 a RPG, so what do I know I will now put on my asbestos underwear and await the flaming barbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Just like "Steampunk" has taken on the meaning of Victorian Era RPG with steam powered technology (mechs, spaceships) ala Space 1889 which makes no sense if you base it on the word. "Steam" is OK, but "punk" is generally taken to be related guys with spiky hair and nose studs. How it came to mean anything Victorian I'll never understand. But regardless, when I read a description that says Steampunk 80% are along that line. When William Gibson was writing Neuromancer, Mona Lisa Overdrive, Johnny Mnemonic, etc, those works were being called "cyberpunk", because of the cybernetics and the punk attitude (as opposed to the bright happy attitude a lot of sci-fi had at the time). When he wrote The Difference Engine, with disaffected Victorians dealing with internet-like, steam-driven technology, it was dubbed "steampunk" as a riff on cyberpunk. That term has by now been applied to any setting with steam-driven "magical" technology. I love the smell of pedantry in the morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... When William Gibson was writing Neuromancer, Mona Lisa Overdrive, Johnny Mnemonic, etc, those works were being called "cyberpunk", because of the cybernetics and the punk attitude (as opposed to the bright happy attitude a lot of sci-fi had at the time). When he wrote The Difference Engine, with disaffected Victorians dealing with internet-like, steam-driven technology, it was dubbed "steampunk" as a riff on cyberpunk. That term has by now been applied to any setting with steam-driven "magical" technology. I love the smell of pedantry in the morning. The Difference Engine! I had never made the connection before, but it now makes sense in it's own way. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... All RPG's are in fact "fantasy". So when someone says "Fantasy Role Playing Game," they're being redundant in your opinion? Why do you suppose we say FRPG specifically and RPG generally? Is there any genre of fiction that isn't fantasy in your view? I don't think I have ever heard anyone refer to the works of Arthur C. Clark, Isaac Asimov, or Kurt Vonnegut as "fantasy." When I go to a bookstore, they have a section for "SciFi" and a section for "Western" etc., and a separate section for "Fantasy." Is that too general a term, in your view? Should they instead label their sections as "Fantasy: Science Fiction," "Fantasy: Western," "Fantasy: Horror," and "Fantasy: Magic and/or mythical creatures in a quasi-historical or modern setting"? When someone refers to a book or game as "fantasy" do you ask "What kind?" Do you assume it's equally likely to be scifi as swords & sorcery? Just like "Steampunk" has taken on the meaning of Victorian Era RPG with steam powered technology (mechs, spaceships) ala Space 1889 which makes no sense if you base it on the word. "Steam" is OK, but "punk" is generally taken to be related guys with spiky hair and nose studs. How it came to mean anything Victorian I'll never understand. It's a back-formation from the term "Cyberpunk." As Captain Obvious pointed out. I would have thought that was obvious. As the definition of "Fantasy". But apparently not. Champions, Dark Champions, Star Hero, Pulp Hero, Fantasy Hero, D&D, Mutants and Masterminds, Cyberpunk, Traveller, and Mage: the Ascension are all "fantasy" RPG's. They may not be that under your personal opinion of what they should be called. But by "definition" of the word, they are indeed fantasy. It isn't "my personal definition". It's the definition used by the entire gaming industry and community as well as writers and readers of genre fiction. I don't know how long you've been playing RPGs, or how long you've been speaking English, but there are contextual definitions, which exist in all languages, even if you aren't a native speaker of English. Or maybe you're being deliberately obtuse for some reason. I don't mean this as an insult, but it baffles me that this isn't obvious to you. As long as quoting reference books, how about FREd (and presumably 5ER), in the glossary under "genre" it gives the definitions of the different genre types. They aren't all called different subtypes of "fantasy". And in HERO Games' Fantasy HERO, chapter one, there is a whole page that describes precisely "What is Fantasy," and then devotes several more pages to sub-genres of fantasy. Scifi, western, superheroes, et al., are not among them. But hey, I don't consider D20 a RPG, so what do I know You said it. I didn't. I'm afraid to ask what you do consider D20 to be, if not an RPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Because there are non-fantasy roleplaying games. Many of them are used in psychology, some used in history, some used by military leaders in wargames - "if we invade, what would Poland do?" It's a wargame with delusions of roleplaying. Are you and "Spence" the same person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Re: When you hear Urban Fantasy... Wow Phil, I don't know what to say. I did write a long post in response before I realized you were trolling. No I will not get sucked into a circular argument as you twist or ignore bits and pieces of people posts and sling accusations and insults left and right. Luckily, this is a Forum and once Identified Trolls can be ignored. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.