D&D Spellbooks as Bases

[Choldath]

I'm relatively new to the game and have considered running a Fantasy Hero game as a GM. Because of the lack of adventure writing experience, I'd like to convert a D&D campaign to Hero.

 

Although a lot needs to be done to convert all the possibilities over to Hero, I've been having difficulties with the Spells. To keep the system as close to the D&D feel, I thought of using Bases for the Magic System. As some of the spells in D&D can have some considerable costs, I think that this might be the easiest way to go.

 

I'd like to see any input as to the pros/cons of this type of Magic System, outlined below. This is just some ideas that I have, by no means a "finished product".

 

Any help is appreciated!

 

D&D Magic System in Hero:

Each spellcasting class (Wizard, Sorcerer, Assassin, Ranger, Druid, etc) would need to create a Spellbook (Base) of known spells. The Base would then have MultiPower that contain Spell Levels. Each Spell Level has at least cost of 100 base points. So, a 1st level Wizard would need to expend 20 Character Points to have a Spell Book for 1st Level. A Wizard capable of 9th level spells would need to have a minimum of 180 points worth of Spellbooks, spells purchased separately.

 

Individual spells are bought within the Base using the rules for MP. The spell must cost at least 1 character point (ex, 1st level Wizard Spell Book with 1 spell would cost at least 21 character points).

 

All MP must have limitations that mirror the D&D Spellcasting system (charges on the MP, requires 8 hours rest, etc).

 

Of course, this will depend entirely on the cost of the spells that I convert over. Higher level spells may cost more than the Spell Level MP and require more Base points.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

I'm relatively new to the game and have considered running a Fantasy Hero game as a GM. Because of the lack of adventure writing experience, I'd like to convert a D&D campaign to Hero.

 

Although a lot needs to be done to convert all the possibilities over to Hero, I've been having difficulties with the Spells. To keep the system as close to the D&D feel, I thought of using Bases for the Magic System. As some of the spells in D&D can have some considerable costs, I think that this might be the easiest way to go.

 

I'd like to see any input as to the pros/cons of this type of Magic System, outlined below. This is just some ideas that I have, by no means a "finished product".

 

Any help is appreciated!

 

 

 

Of course, this will depend entirely on the cost of the spells that I convert over. Higher level spells may cost more than the Spell Level MP and require more Base points.

 

I don't like the use of a Base and a Multipower at all. Bases getting a 5 to 1 cost and then a multipower for even less points is a lot.

 

Personally, I think you would be better off doing the following:

A Spellbooks costs 1 point per 3 pages. A spell takes 1 page per END Cost and all spells must use Endurance to be valid. Treat those spellbooks as independent.

[assault]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

I would also suggest actually building some spells as powers to see what they will end up looking like. Then work on the cost breaks...

[Erkenfresh]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

KillerShrike hasn't responded yet. So, here's the link:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.shtml

 

 

There's plenty of magic systems available from there. I'm not sure which one is the most D&D'ish. But, you might find something you like better anyway.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

And if you follow the link in my signature, below, and scroll down to the DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS listing, you'll find many more HERO conversions of D&D stuff.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

KillerShrike hasn't responded yet. So, here's the link:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.shtml

 

 

Thanks for the plug. More specifically, while the general High Fantasy HERO material linked to by Erkenfresh should be helpful for you, you might find the extensive D&D 3e to HERO System Conversion materials more specific to your needs.

 

There's plenty of magic systems available from there. I'm not sure which one is the most D&D'ish. But, you might find something you like better anyway.

 

The "Vancian" Magic System is basically a conversion of 3e Magic, specifically the "Prepared" and "Spontaneous" Casting Models. Links are provided in the appropriate places on the pages linked to previously.

[The Monster]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

Taking a tip from the Computers rules, you might simply say that each spell is a one-point "program" in a medieval-tech memory storage unit. Run that as an OAF, and you can have a 20-page spellbook for a mere 4 points.

If you really want to charge more for more powerful spells, just say it costs 1 point per 10 or 20 Active points in a spell.

 

Then, of course, all the Wizard's spells will have a Limitation reflecting that he needs a spellbook to memorize the spell for the day (either a seperate Limitation or figured as part of a Focus limit).

 

As mentioned above, build a few spells and see what they cost before you start designing big point savers. Operating magic as a Multipower is probably enough of a break for the casters.

[Choldath]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

I appreciate the responses. I'll dig into the websites a little later (it is Super Bowl Sunday after all )

 

As I said, I'm still pretty new to the system. Regarding advancement, and the sake of argument, would it be unreasonable to use the above outline to limit the amount of magic based on the point cost as above? More to the point, is 20 points for a spell level too much or too little?

 

All differences in systems aside, we created characters in Hero that related to D&D Feats and we took in at least 4 levels worth of converted Feats at character creation. I'm mostly trying to get an idea of how fast CP progression should be. The adventure I'll be converting would progress from 1st-20th level, so I don't want the PCs too strong or too weak.

 

Once again, your help is greatly appreciated.

[sbarron]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

All differences in systems aside' date=' we created characters in Hero that related to D&D Feats and we took in at least 4 levels worth of converted Feats at character creation. I'm mostly trying to get an idea of how fast CP progression should be. The adventure I'll be converting would progress from 1st-20th level, so I don't want the PCs too strong or too weak.[/quote']I think doing this if you're a little new to the system is very ambitious. Not that I don't think you can do it, or that you shouldn't try, mind you. I just think that working your way through one of the 1-20 level advancement modules, which are designed specifically for advancing D&D characters through their entire character development, but doing so in a point based system you and your players aren't familiar with could be rough. You might be better off playing some short adventures and familiarizing yourself with HERO advancement a bit before attempting to mirror D&D advancement at that level.

 

Also, Killer Shrike's website likely can answer all your questions about making level to point buy comparisons, and how many points characters should get per "level." The truth is, HERO is so subjective its hard to give you an exact number for points for levels. It really depends on your gaming style, character development preferences, and a whole bunch of other factors.

 

I realize this post is pretty negative. I guess I'm just worried that you'll find HERO too different from D&D to completely switch systems if you try to do D&D using HERO rules. It can be done, but I don't recommend it. Jump in with both feet and play HERO with HERO.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

I appreciate the responses. I'll dig into the websites a little later (it is Super Bowl Sunday after all )

 

As I said, I'm still pretty new to the system. Regarding advancement, and the sake of argument, would it be unreasonable to use the above outline to limit the amount of magic based on the point cost as above? More to the point, is 20 points for a spell level too much or too little?

It depends on what magic system you are using. For some systems 20 points is enough, in others its too many, and in others its too low.

 

All differences in systems aside, we created characters in Hero that related to D&D Feats and we took in at least 4 levels worth of converted Feats at character creation. I'm mostly trying to get an idea of how fast CP progression should be. The adventure I'll be converting would progress from 1st-20th level, so I don't want the PCs too strong or too weak.

 

Once again, your help is greatly appreciated.

This depends on:

 

A) How many HERO System points are you equivalencing to a D&D Level?

How fast or slow you want characters to progress?

 

Personally I equate 15 points to be equivalent to 1 D&D Level as laid out in this document:

 

D&D Conversion

 

If I wanted characters to progress about a "level" every 3-5 sessions based upon difficulty and individual performance of the players, I would assign between 5 and 3 XP.

[Vondy]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

Mantra: Killer Shrike's Website Can Do Anything!

[CourtFool]

All your settings are belong to Hero

 

I have heard it said before and I believe it has some merit. If you wish to play The System Which Shall Not Be Named, then play it. If, on the other hand, you want to play Hero in a certain setting...well, that is much easier to do. Throw out the mechanics and convert the fluff.

[Fitz]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

I forget who made this suggestion originally, but I seem to recall an idea for D&D/Hero magic conversion which went like this:

 

For each Level of magic-use, the character buys a Talent (cost per level is up to the GM, but I'd probably use a climbing scale: say, 2pts per spell-level?). Purchase of each Level-Talent beyond the first requires that all of the preceding ones have been bought -- in other words, if you want to be able to cast 5th-level spells, you have to have the Talents for 1st through 4th level as well.

 

Once you have the requisite Level-Talent, you can cast any spell of that level to which you have access (i.e. that's in your spell-book). The individual spells don't cost the character anything, though some may still have an XP penalty for casting (does D&D still do that?)

 

You can keep the D&D set-number-of-spells-per-level-per-day I guess, though I use a Mana-Pool system (basically an END REserve that all spells are powered from) that can only be recharged once per day; that allows a reasonable amount of freedom without allowing wizards to fire off spell after spell willy-nilly and just taking a few minutes of recovery every once in a while.

 

This should allow a reasonable facsimile of D&D magic, and it has the advantage that you don't have to worry about costing out the individual spells: as long as you decide on the appropriate powers and limitations to mirror the D&D spell, the cost doesn't really matter. Some D&D spells are mind-bogglingly powerful when converted into a points-based system, but if you're not paying for them, who cares.

[Glupii]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

Thanks to Killer Shrike, I have finally made the conversion from "the system not to be named" to Fantasy hero and I think kept as much of the feel of the magic system as was appropriate while maintaining the parts that make the hero system so much more superior.

 

Seekers (Sorcerers) have internal endurance batteries that cost more to upgrade and can only be done by spending points. BUT these endurance batteries regen over time dependent on activity. (I think I said 5 points per minute of total rest down to 1 point per ten minutes of physical activity with varying grades in between)

 

However Mystics (Wizards) have external batteries that only regen 1/day. The first one they have to pay points for in points and they can always create more in the same manner. They cost less due to the focus. But in addition to that they have the ability to gather other batteries from other sources (defeating an enemy mystic comes to mind) and can use them as well free of charge since they are treasure.

 

The other difference I have between them is that Seekers have a set number of spells bought normally (no constructs like Multipower) but with their cost divided by 3. This keeps the spells they have static and fewer in number. To contrast this, Mystics have a setup based on a VPP so that they can have more spells at their disposal but only some of them are "known" at any given time. With study, they can swap spells out for any other spell they have in their book.

 

It took alot of hit and miss and I tried out some of the systems KS suggested and while they were good, they didn't quite fit what we were trying to do. However he was FANTASTIC in helping me figure it all out. I have never met met anyone with more grasp of how the numbers of the hero system work. I would advise talking to him about any idea you have before implementing it. He will tell you right off where the weak spots are going to be.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

I forget who made this suggestion originally, but I seem to recall an idea for D&D/Hero magic conversion which went like this:

 

For each Level of magic-use, the character buys a Talent (cost per level is up to the GM, but I'd probably use a climbing scale: say, 2pts per spell-level?). Purchase of each Level-Talent beyond the first requires that all of the preceding ones have been bought -- in other words, if you want to be able to cast 5th-level spells, you have to have the Talents for 1st through 4th level as well.

 

Once you have the requisite Level-Talent, you can cast any spell of that level to which you have access (i.e. that's in your spell-book). The individual spells don't cost the character anything, though some may still have an XP penalty for casting (does D&D still do that?)

 

You can keep the D&D set-number-of-spells-per-level-per-day I guess, though I use a Mana-Pool system (basically an END REserve that all spells are powered from) that can only be recharged once per day; that allows a reasonable amount of freedom without allowing wizards to fire off spell after spell willy-nilly and just taking a few minutes of recovery every once in a while.

 

This should allow a reasonable facsimile of D&D magic, and it has the advantage that you don't have to worry about costing out the individual spells: as long as you decide on the appropriate powers and limitations to mirror the D&D spell, the cost doesn't really matter. Some D&D spells are mind-bogglingly powerful when converted into a points-based system, but if you're not paying for them, who cares.

 

I think you're thinking of something I was working on that uses this mechanic. Here's the short version:

 

1) I pirated a bunch of core ideas from KS's website and proceeded to go all Coco Puffs crazy with them. Then the dust settled, and there was a nuclear winter.

 

Sorry. Wrong plot line. Where was I? Oh yes.

 

2) In said core ideas I decided that what I really wanted to do was literally model the d20 magic system "exactly" into HERO. Which meant, for me, keeping all of the flavor and chucking 99% of the mechanics, which was the really hard part.

 

The final "concept" (note this is not a finished design yet) looks something like this:

 

Talent: School of Magic (5, 3, or 2 pts depending on level of Arcana; Major, Lesser, Minor -- they are Evocation, Conjuration, Transmutation (Major), Abjuration, Enchantment/Charm, Illusion (Lesser), Divination, Necromancy (Minor) -- you can quibble over what should go where, but those are the "original" school break out sections.

 

Once you've purchased the talent, you may purchase any associated skills, i.e., Power Skills. So if you want to make a Conjurer, he might do this:

 

Talent: Conjuration (5), Abjuration (3), Evocation (5).

 

Skills: Power Skill: Conjuration (13-), Abjuration (11-), Evocation (11-). He's already bought up his CONJ skill because he wants that to be his focus. He can continue improving other skills as necessary. You can also rule that some skills are cheaper, so you may want to take Necromancy & Divination and make them 1:1 or some such. You can fiddle with the power level very easily this way.

 

Also, it allows you to pull in Physical Limitation: Cannot Cast from School (X). Worth 15, 10 and 5 points respectively. Not being able to toss Ray of Enfeeblement might not mean a lot, but not being able to Summon or huck a Fireball means a lot more. With me so far? Okay.

 

Now we go back to KS's work, and we start figuring out how the DEUCE to convert all of these spells. You're going to run into two problems off the bat. As magic scales up in power (and it will), you're going to either have to charge casters for magic (possible) or use the d20 Wealth Management System to keep fighters, et al., competitive otherwise you just have casters nuking, transforming and wall casting all over the place.

 

However, because this is HERO, magic commonly uses Requires a Skill Roll to do, and this is basically a reversal of the Saving Throw. Now the onus is on the caster to do everything right (Gestures, Incants, Focii.) As spells go up in AP, they become harder to cast (doi). This is why I didn't charge for spells, specifically -- I've already forced you to purchase a talent AND to start building up your ability to cast your spells reliably. That's plenty to keep the wizard/cleric in check for a LONG time to come.

 

You probably don't want to go with a Base. I've done it as a IVPP (InVariable Power Pool, and my notes are around here somewhere and that version is very similar to what KS did).

 

Should I do more with this, or get around to posting something functional and you're interested, just let me know and I'd be happy to whip up something on Word. I think Manic Typist asked for more information on this when I first posited the system, but I don't recall anymore. Too much going on IRL.

 

EDIT -- Some Other Notes: I did consider (and am considering) charging "update" Talents, but I personally wouldn't do more than 1-3, 3-6 and 7-9; otherwise it becomes prohibitively expensive to do anything. The skill purchase system should be enough to force your mage to focus on a couple of schools of magic. You can also easily tweak magic items that add +4 to X Roll, i.e., Ring of Summoning, +4 to skill rolls with Conjuration magic, +2 OCV with Conjuration Magic, +2 DC to Conjuration Magic (as appropriate). This gives you much more flex than the d20 design does, where people simply know all the magic all the time.

 

I also settled on this concept because of the way Clerical magic is handled, and I wanted to do something very similar for them, keeping them in their Spheres of Influence. For Clerics you can purchase your Faith in [Deity], who is going to be Major, Minor, Demi or Forgotten. That determines how many Spheres THEY have available. You can then charge a Cleric X points for a Sphere handled by their deity, and X+Whatever (on a sliding scale, if you wish) for Spheres outside, and again, they might take a Physical Limitation (or you may enforce it automatically) "Cannot Learn Spheres Outside of Deity, -X."

[Choldath]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

Sbarron - I understand the concern. Though I am new to the System, I find that diving in and messing with it is the best way to learn. A friend of mine also suggested that this helped him get an understanding. The plan is to convert what I need to and then convert a little more. If the conversion goes well, there are plenty of d20 modules that can be used.

 

Killer Shrike - I've found your website to be quite helpful in this endeavor. Being new, you just don't think of some of those things. I've made a considerable scratch into converting the main bad guy. This will help, along with everyone's suggestions, to see where everything sits. I think that because D&D is so "super heroic" (Feats and Special Abilities are quite powerful) that Hero is a logical choice for the conversion.

 

CourtFool - I agree, but also see above.

 

Fitz - Thanks for the input. There are lots of aspects to the D&D system, all help is appreciated.

 

Glupii - Can you give an example?

 

Halmade - I would be interested in seeing something written down. I haven't even begun to think about what to do for Clerical spells.

 

Another aspect which has aluded me is the Saving Throw. I was never much for the Requires a Skill Roll because it meant that the Wizard may not be able to get off the spell. However, it seems to me that using a Saving Throw and RSR is a little overboard. In D&D, if you hit the person, they usually didn't get a Saving Throw. If it was something more "automatic", you were given the chance. Of course, not all spells are consistant with this...

 

We've played a few times where there was a penalty associated with the casting of the spell based on its "Level" (-1 for first, -3 for second, etc) assigned to RSR. I don't know if it was bad dice rolling, but it seemed that our main Wizard had a hard time. How do you deal with progression of the Magic Skill? Is there a determined cap based on Total Character Points?

 

Also, what is everyone's feelings on giving the spells for free/slashed costs? In my Base Spellbook, I'm basically charging 1 CP, more if the conversion is considerably powerful. In a few of the examples above, people are giving them for free. I think the "Charges" option kind of justifies the means by keeping the amount of spells slinged to a minimum (not sure exactly the effect at higher levels). This allows the Wizard to be able to develop more of their character instead of putting all their points into the Spells. At 20 CP for a Level, it spreads the points over multiple "levels", much like D&D (requiring 2 levels to increase to the next Spell Level), the 15 points per level allows for this AND development. Fortunately, the adventure I want to convert tells where the PCs should be level-wise throughout the campaign.

 

Of course, I'm still open to other options.

 

Again, thanks everyone for your insight!

[Markdoc]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

Another aspect which has aluded me is the Saving Throw. I was never much for the Requires a Skill Roll because it meant that the Wizard may not be able to get off the spell. However' date=' it seems to me that using a Saving Throw and [i']RSR[/i] is a little overboard. In D&D, if you hit the person, they usually didn't get a Saving Throw. If it was something more "automatic", you were given the chance. Of course, not all spells are consistant with this...

 

Exactly - In DnD, the spell always goes off (unless you get an arrow in the chest midway through) but doesn't always have any effect. In Hero (with RSR) it doesn't always go off, but it always has an effect (depending on defences, it may not have *much* effect, but that's true in D20, too). When I convert systems with "saving throws" I simply assume that RSR and/or the attack roll take its place.

 

We've played a few times where there was a penalty associated with the casting of the spell based on its "Level" (-1 for first' date=' -3 for second, etc) assigned to [i']RSR[/i]. I don't know if it was bad dice rolling, but it seemed that our main Wizard had a hard time. How do you deal with progression of the Magic Skill? Is there a determined cap based on Total Character Points?

 

Nope - in such a situation, it's a good idea to sink a decent number of points into your skill roll.

 

Also' date=' what is everyone's feelings on giving the spells for free/slashed costs? In my Base Spellbook, I'm basically charging 1 CP, more if the conversion is considerably powerful. In a few of the examples above, people are giving them for free. I think the "Charges" option kind of justifies the means by keeping the amount of spells slinged to a minimum (not sure exactly the effect at higher levels). This allows the Wizard to be able to develop more of their character instead of putting all their points into the Spells. At 20 CP for a Level, it spreads the points over multiple "levels", much like D&D (requiring 2 levels to increase to the next Spell Level), the 15 points per level allows for this AND development. Fortunately, the adventure I want to convert tells where the PCs should be level-wise throughout the campaign. [/quote']

 

Well, work it out for yourself. In D20, the wizard's spells are offset by the fact that he's stuck without armour or decent weapons and gets a crappy BAB and hit dice.

 

In Hero, unless you rule otherwise, he can use the same armour as everyone else and he'll have the same attack progression and BOD/STUN as everybody else. He'll pay a little for spells, and some for a skill roll, but that's it. He should spend points on useful skills and background knowledge skills - but so will everybody else, hopefully.

 

What you rather have - fireball, flight and invisibility or +1 with longsword? With the system you propose those two things will cost the same.

 

If you make spells cheap, you'll need to offset that utility by more than just charges, or you will find that wizards are almost as tough in a fight as the best fighters - and can cast magic as well.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

Killer Shrike - I've found your website to be quite helpful in this endeavor. Being new, you just don't think of some of those things. I've made a considerable scratch into converting the main bad guy. This will help, along with everyone's suggestions, to see where everything sits. I think that because D&D is so "super heroic" (Feats and Special Abilities are quite powerful) that Hero is a logical choice for the conversion.

 

Thanks

 

Another aspect which has aluded me is the Saving Throw. I was never much for the Requires a Skill Roll because it meant that the Wizard may not be able to get off the spell. However, it seems to me that using a Saving Throw and RSR is a little overboard. In D&D, if you hit the person, they usually didn't get a Saving Throw. If it was something more "automatic", you were given the chance. Of course, not all spells are consistant with this...

 

What you have to consider here is "why do saving throws exist in D&D?"

 

In other words, what purpose do they serve. In D&D characters don't have much in the way of defensive options. They basically have a passive defense in the form of AC. If they get hit, there is no default mitigation (though some creatures have limited mitigation as a special ability). Vs damage this is "corrected" for by the bloated HP mechanic where more powerful characters are just able to soak more damage, and the relatively low dice of damage from weapons.

 

However, vs magical effects that have much higher dice of damage or arbitrarily flat effects this doesn't work. For the game to function there has to be some form of mitigation against this. This could have been handled in any number of ways, but what we got was the Saving Throw for half or no effect.

 

Now over here in HERO land, you need to look at the mechanics of the HERO System and ask yourself: does the same problem, lack of mitigation options, exist in this system? The answer is "No.". There are many options for characters to mitigate the effects of magic, ranging from commonly available active defenses in the form of DCV & ECV and Aborts to Dodge, Dive For Cover, and Roll w/ Punch, to purchased mitigation abilities such as Power Defense, Mental Defense, Damage Reduction, and so forth.

 

Next consider if you want to favor a "Darwinistic" approach and let players purchase their own form of protection against magic and let the fittest characters survive, which is the HERO System norm, or if you want to take a more structured approach and define some construct or concept that serves as a parallel for Saving Throws in your campaign.

 

If you decide to go for the structured approach, you then need to consider what kind of overhead is involved with it, consider where it might cause other problems either mechanically or in play balance, and consider if it is worth it -- is the return worth the investment.

 

Over the years I've tried several approaches. In my original AD&D 2e to HERO 4e conversion years ago I used Mental Defense, Power Defense, and limited Damage Reduction on Activation Rolls as the equivalent to "saving throws", and characters that wanted to bought some. This worked out ok in play, and was compact in design since each character encapsulated their own behavior in the usual HERO System fashion -- it didn't require alterations to other characters to make a character with save work in other words. However the cost in character points added up, and over time I noticed that though there were exceptions taken as a whole characters that didn't spend any points on such abilities and invested them elsewhere were overall more potent, dangerous, and effectively survivable characters.

 

When I converted 3e over, I tried a different tact and posited a custom talent that interacted as a resisted skill roll with an RSR taken on individual spells that offered a "save". Mechanically it worked, but in actual execution players of spellcasters just avoided taking spells that offered saves, which in effect made points spent on Spell Resistance generally useless. I have sense moved away from this model.

 

Next up I decided to just allow Damage Reduction to be defined as working vs "Magic", and use that to handle both a "save" (with an Activation Roll) and

"Magic Resistance" (without an Activation Roll). This still has a cost overhead, but its a single unified mechanic (rather than having to buy Power Defense and Mental Defense as well), and Damage Reduction is inherently difficult to circumvent ensuring that characters that paid points for it will get the benefit of it. I don't require it; its up to the players if they want it or not. Generally its utility has proved to be balanced against its cost but its not so good that everyone wants nor so bad that no one does, which is usually a good measure of effective balance.

 

Anyway, this document discusses this at a high level:

 

Spell Resistance

 

And if using the D&D Conversion materials on the site the conversion documents for individual classes that had strong saves as a class feature goes into more detail on options to model such an effect in the HERO System.

 

STRONG SAVES AS DAMAGE REDUCTION OPTIONS

7 Basic Fortitude: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25%; Requires A CON Roll (-1)

7 Basic Reflex: Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25%; Requires A DEX Roll (-1)

7 Basic Will: Mental Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25%; Requires An EGO Roll (-1)

15 Fortitude: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%; Requires A CON Roll (-1)

15 Reflex: Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%; Requires A DEX Roll (-1)

15 Will: Mental Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%; Requires An EGO Roll (-1)

30 Advanced Fortitude: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%; Requires A CON Roll (-1)

30 Advanced Reflex: Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%; Requires A DEX Roll (-1)

30 Advanced Will: Mental Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%; Requires An EGO Roll (-1)

15 Spell Resistance: Magic Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25%

30 Spell Resistance: Magic Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%

60 Spell Resistance: Magic Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%

 

NOTE: The RSR Limitation values will be lower for Characters with higher values in their CON, DEX, and / or EGO Characteristics.

NOTE: Other Limitations can be applied instead of or in addition to the ones indicated. Consult your GM with any ideas you might have.

 

We've played a few times where there was a penalty associated with the casting of the spell based on its "Level" (-1 for first, -3 for second, etc) assigned to RSR. I don't know if it was bad dice rolling, but it seemed that our main Wizard had a hard time. How do you deal with progression of the Magic Skill? Is there a determined cap based on Total Character Points?

My "Vancian" Magic System conversions don't use a RSR to cast -- in fact it's prohibited -- for just this reason. RSR to cast has its uses for some styles of Magic, but does not accurately model the feel of Vancian Magic.

 

Its all about Control Factors. Making casters roll to cast is a Reliability Control. Vancian -- ie D&D memorize, cast, and "forget" or charge oriented magic -- already has a stiff Volume & Frequency Control since a caster has a relatively small and finite number of Spells that they can use in a day. Combining the two makes for a very very limited Magic System.

 

I discuss Control Factors at length in this document:

 

Magic System Control Factors

 

My Vancian Magic Systems are here:

Vancian Magic Systems

 

Just to be clear there is absolutely no requirement, or even encouragement to use RSR for Magic in the HERO System. This is a common misconception.

 

 

Also, what is everyone's feelings on giving the spells for free/slashed costs? In my Base Spellbook, I'm basically charging 1 CP, more if the conversion is considerably powerful.

For D&D style Magic I would consider it to be a very bad idea.

 

I have a collection of systems on my website that work via Familiarities, but they have very limited lists of possible effects, with low Active Points. And even with these limitations they are very competitive. Paying almost nothing for powerful effects is a recipe for uberness.

 

 

In a few of the examples above, people are giving them for free. I think the "Charges" option kind of justifies the means by keeping the amount of spells slinged to a minimum (not sure exactly the effect at higher levels).

Who is giving what for free? Bad idea. The primary means of balance in a points based game is the idea that characters pay an appropriate number of points for effects. If you toss that out, you will soon have a real mess on your hands.

 

This allows the Wizard to be able to develop more of their character instead of putting all their points into the Spells. At 20 CP for a Level, it spreads the points over multiple "levels", much like D&D (requiring 2 levels to increase to the next Spell Level), the 15 points per level allows for this AND development. Fortunately, the adventure I want to convert tells where the PCs should be level-wise throughout the campaign.

 

Of course, I'm still open to other options.

 

Again, thanks everyone for your insight!

 

I equate 15 points per D&D level in my 3e Conversion. This is 30 points per two levels, and my Vancian Magic Systems, both the Prepared and Spontaneous, are geared to work within this span of points. The Prepared VPP model costs 17.5 points per each 15 Pool in the VPP (which I equate to 1 Spell Level); with some associated skill overhead this means a Wizard would need to spend about 20 out of every 30 XP on their spellcasting to stay competitive. The Spontaneous model is a little less fixed, with lower Spell levels being cheaper and later Spell Levels being more expensive, but it still ranges in that 30 point span, and pivots around 4th Spell Level -- compared to the steady 17.5 per 15 Pool of the prepared model 0 thru 4th Spell Level is easier (in terms of points spent) for a Spontaneous caster, 5 thru 9th Spell Level is harder.

 

Anyway, the point is, there are many ways to do things in the HERO System, and you're always free to do it however you like. Ive already invested a huge amount of thought and effort, informed by many years of feedback and usage, into a method to do what you are trying to do, found things out the hard way, overcome obstacles, and shaken a lot of bugs out. Its there to use, or to inspire, or to be morphed into something else. Its a lot to absorb, but it might save you a lot of time and missed opportunities down the road.

 

Oh, and good luck!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

My "Vancian" Magic System conversions don't use a RSR to cast -- in fact it's prohibited -- for just this reason. RSR to cast has its uses for some styles of Magic, but does not accurately model the feel of Vancian Magic.

 

Its all about Control Factors. Making casters roll to cast is a Reliability Control. Vancian -- ie D&D memorize, cast, and "forget" or charge oriented magic -- already has a stiff Volume & Frequency Control since a caster has a relatively small and finite number of Spells that they can use in a day. Combining the two makes for a very very limited Magic System.

 

This is the very reason I'm using both -- for me, RSR represents training, ability, and separates good casters from great casters. It lends a level of granularity that otherwise wouldn't be there. It also enables me to build nifty magic items, like Staves of Summoning that grant a +X to Conjuration Rolls (niff, eh?)

 

KS, as usual, is entirely correct. My system (School, Talent, Skill) is expensive, and prohibitive. If you want to cast magic, you're going to be paying for the privilege. However, I've found in HERO that a caster who has 60 AP to play with can do a tremendous amount of damage in short order -- once I'm done converting magic I'm going to start doing a complete Bestiary conversion, with my favorites first.

 

KS, couple of questions for you, if I might pick your brain.

 

-- Many creatures in d20 have Save Bonuses as necessary; if I keep with what I'm doing, and I'm making them HERO characters with d20 flavor, instead of trying to recreate d20 characters in HERO, what rough guidelines would you suggest? Add in appropriate levels of DEF? Curious what rule stick you would use.

 

-- 2nd question. Having read over the VPP rules and re-read (with new eyes and a lot more experience now) your notes on Vancian magic, I'm doing something very similar. However, you settled on a handwave of VPP*3, which to me is not dissimilar to Real Cost/3 in terms of slotting magic and availability, and certainly the spells are insanely cheap. Looking at my own builds, I'm seeing a lot of 1st level magic land around 5-10 Real. My concern, of course, being that someone might simply take the VPP*3 when they hit 60 and go all bananas with 180 available points and promptly out weigh everyone else on the board. IYE, does that really balance out? If I just go with a straight VPP am I screwing casters? Even doubling it seemed to border on excessive.

 

I'm still considering a new mechanic for marking boundaries, at the same time, that is also "un-HERO like." If someone wants to cast 50 Magic Missiles in one day, should I care? Or Shocking Grasp? (A spell I'm very proud of, BTW). Just curious what your thoughts are in that regard, specifically.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: D&D Spellbooks as Bases

 

KS, couple of questions for you, if I might pick your brain.

 

-- Many creatures in d20 have Save Bonuses as necessary; if I keep with what I'm doing, and I'm making them HERO characters with d20 flavor, instead of trying to recreate d20 characters in HERO, what rough guidelines would you suggest? Add in appropriate levels of DEF? Curious what rule stick you would use.

 

Well, it would depend on how you are modeling Saves in your campaign. However, if using my materials there are a few ways to do it...

 

The Monster Conversion discusses converting common Monster abilities in general, but specifically....

 

A) If using Damage Reduction on an Activation Roll, make the Activation Roll less severe. There's a lot of statistical variation between say 11- and 15- that would represent an idea of having a better or worse save.

 

You could just treat such bonuses as a feat equivalent and map it to Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Lightning Reflexes, using the Feat Conversion doc:

 

Feat Conversion

 

 

GREAT FORTITUDE

Your Character is hard to hurt with strange effects.

GREAT FORTITUDE AS POWER DEFENSE

Shrugged It Off: Power Defense: +10

Real Cost: 10 Points

 

IRON WILL

Your Character is hard to affect with Mental powers and Mind Control effects.

IRON WILL AS MENTAL DEFENSE

Iron Headed: Mental Defense +10

Real Cost: 10 Points

 

C) You could just add +1 DCV per every +2 Reflex Save, 5 Power Defense for every +2 Fortitude Save, and +1 DECV for every +2 EGO Save. Alternately, you could add +1 DEX per every +1 Reflex Save, +1 CON +1 BODY per every +1 Fortitude Save, and +2 EGO for every +2 EGO Save. Saves above and beyond, that is, not full base Saves plus bonuses. This is a more abstract approach.

 

And so on.

 

-- 2nd question. Having read over the VPP rules and re-read (with new eyes and a lot more experience now) your notes on Vancian magic, I'm doing something very similar. However, you settled on a handwave of VPP*3, which to me is not dissimilar to Real Cost/3 in terms of slotting magic and availability, and certainly the spells are insanely cheap.

 

Well...slow down for a second and explore this for a moment.

 

In a RC/3 scenario a character pays for each spell individually, but can cast all of those spells as many times as they like unless the individual spells say other wise. Further, they have paid for ALL of the Spells that they know individually; they are all available all the time. There is no concept of potential known spells vs prepared spells.

 

With my Prepared casting model a spellcaster pays for the VPP, not the Spells. Every 15 Pool costs 17.5 points, and this cost cannot be avoided. Every spellcaster has a Known Spell List that represents what they POTENTIALLY can do, but what they can actually cast on a given day is determined by what they have prepared into their VPP for that day.

 

This is a model we are all well familiar with, so Im not going to go into the nuances of it too deeply, but there is an important difference here. Right off the bat, before we've committed anything else, chosen a single spell, made a single character we already have some key dynamics going on due to the mechanics and Id like to discuss them even though they are not directly relevant to your question but serve to highlight nuances of mechanical design:

 

A) the /3 caster can take niche, specialized abilities if they like but there is a cost involved. However no matter how rarely a circumstance occurs, when it does occur they can use their niche ability because it is always available to them. The VPP caster can take as many niche abilities as they like (assuming no limits have been placed on how many Spells they can learn to their Known Spell List), but the more specialized the ability the less likely that they will have it available at any given time because they are much less likely to prepare limited use spells on a given day.

 

the /3 caster has a tactical advantage in that during heightened circumstances their options are not limited by decisions they made earlier in the game day as to what ability set they would want to have for the day. The VPP caster has a strategic advantage in that they can convert foreknowledge into a powerful tool -- if they know ahead of time what they are facing they can prepare a tailored response; and if they have a good deal of lead time they can learn or create extremely specialized spells.

 

This dynamic predisposes the VPP caster towards a studious, information seeking, research oriented, planner type and the /3 towards a generalist approach.

 

 

Ok, veering back on topic, if you make a character using the Prepared model but without the Pool * 3 RC allotment you quickly realize that such characters simply don't get enough Spells to be competitive. Why is that? Because of the requirement that each Spell in the VPP may only have 1 Charge. This severely undercuts the potency of the VPP. To understand why you have to consider the nature of VPPs

 

VPPs are square models the Pool represents both the max AP of powers that can be inserted into a VPP, and the total RC of the powers that can be inserted into it. There is no provision to turn it into a rectangular model where the AP and the RC don't have to match. This works out in most cases, but not in others. Spellcasting is a case where it doesnt work so great; it would be better to be able to skew the RC vs the AP of a VPP so that you could do things like have a VPP with say a 90 AP limit and a 30 RC limit, or more commonly vice versa.

 

Real Costs are reduced by Limitations, and thus high AP abilities save more points than lower AP abilities with the same Limitations. A 60 AP ability with a -1 Lim saves 30 RC, while a 30 AP ability with the same -1 Lim saves only 15 RC. This makes it basically more efficient to favor abilities that push the AP cap of a VPP; 2 60 AP powers for 60 RC is generally better than 4 30 AP powers for 60 RC.

 

Normally even if the ability to change the powers around is limited, the abilities in a VPP can be used again and again. However in the Prepared Casting model with its 1 Charge per Spell slot requirement, this isnt true. In a normal implementation even if using Charges, an individual Spell could have say 3 Charges, and the overall effect on its cost is very mild. In the Prepared model to be able to cast such a spell 3 times you would effectively have to pay the real cost of the 1 charge version 3 times.

 

So why not just let a player up the Charges when they prepare a spell rather than forcing the 1 charge idea? For several reasons. The main reason is that by enforcing the 1 Charge per idea, it effectively turns Spells into interchangeable slots, with mathematically regular and consistent point costs. It would be extremely messy to start playing around with the math when preparing Spells to account for charge counts for the day.

 

If using the standard method of just upping the Charge count and it cost say 10 points for 1 Charge, 12 points for 2 Charges, and 15 points for 3 Charges of a particular Spell (just to puts some numbers on it), you've now introduced a time consuming process of book keeping just to prepare spells. This slows down games, leads to mistakes, and allows a caster to be too powerful easily; the ability to cast a Fireball is dangerous, but the ability to cast it multiple times for very little more cost is much more dangerous for instance. Since the math on this is variable, it becomes very difficult to account for as a GM.

 

Using the 1 Charge per method though, when preparing spells the math is easy -- it costs 3 x 10 to be able to cast that spell 3 times. Snap, done, no refactoring. So, I put that into practice and started converting characters over, converted all of their Spells, slotted them out, and discovered that consistently I was seeing total Spells per day factoring out to roughly 3x the RC limit of a square VPP. Sometimes its a little over, sometimes a little under, but Ive been able to fit most Prepared casters into this model without much or any effort.

 

Most of my test cases are on paper, but here are a few converted D&D characters using the Prepared model on the website:

 

Jasper Maskelyne

 

Phadian Gess

 

Barit Galomar

 

Kaira Swanwing

 

 

Looking at my own builds, I'm seeing a lot of 1st level magic land around 5-10 Real. My concern, of course, being that someone might simply take the VPP*3 when they hit 60 and go all bananas with 180 available points and promptly out weigh everyone else on the board. IYE, does that really balance out? If I just go with a straight VPP am I screwing casters? Even doubling it seemed to border on excessive.

 

 

I'm still considering a new mechanic for marking boundaries, at the same time, that is also "un-HERO like." If someone wants to cast 50 Magic Missiles in one day, should I care? Or Shocking Grasp? (A spell I'm very proud of, BTW). Just curious what your thoughts are in that regard, specifically.

I think its all relative. If a character can launch a Magic Missile at will, if its relatively as powerful as say an Archer launching an Arrow at will, its not really a big deal. Similarly if your Shocking Grasp is equivalent to whacking someone with a sword, then who cares? If that is the extent of the magical abilities available, then the "gear is free, why does magic cost" argument becomes relevant. However, if this is the low end of magic in your setting, then youre wasting your time worrying about it at that strata. Just to put some scale around it, if the caster can cast a magic missile that is better than a patriot missile is it fair or balanced for them to be able to cast it at will?

 

You can think of a Magic System as being deep or shallow, broad or narrow. This can be represented in a ++, +-, -+, -- diagram. A system that is shallow and narrow offers a few weak abilities (--), while a system that is broad and deep offers a perhaps infinite variety of very powerful abilities (++); the other two fall in between in a fashion that should be obvious.

 

Now attach a cost to that in character points; if we assume that someting that is "perfectly" costed in a overall sense can be represented by a null and something undercosted can be represented as a plus, and something overcosted can be represented as a - (and remembering that this abstracts magnitude) then we get the following:

 

+++ = broad, deep, undercosted

++* = broad, deep, balanced cost

++- = broad, deep, overcosted

+-+ = broad, shallow, undercosted

+-* = broad, shallow, balanced cost

+-- = broad, shallow, undercosted

-++ = narrow, deep, undercosted

-+* = narrow, deep, balanced cost

-+- = narrow, deep, overcosted

--+ = narrow, shallow, undercosted

--* = narrow, shallow, balanced cost

--- = narrow, shallow, overcosted

 

If you look at a particular magic system and consider its breadth (variety of effects) and depth (power level relative to the campaign) and its total cost of ownership, it should be possible for you to get an idea of where it falls in this matrix. Magic Systems with more +'s are more uber; magic systems with more -'s are more weak. The more powerful the system, the more necessary it is to start applying Control Factors (like Frequency, to bring on topic to your example) to bring it under control. This can be represented by another +, *, or - with a system having few or no controls being a +, systems having a good balance of controls being a start, and systems having strict controls being a -. This is more subjective, and IMO the area where most Magic Systems get messed up by their designers.

 

Hope that helps