Ran my first FH session... some questions

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Look ma! No INT!

 

No - what you describe above is what happens: the pool gets a bunch of common lim.s (Gestures, incantations, can only use when naked, etc) and then the individual slots tend to get extra limits dropped on them to "flavour" the spells and shave a few points.

 

But it does dispel the "all same limittaions" idea.

 

Yes and no. It does mean that any limitations common to many or most spells is unlikely to be removed from one or two spells. Gestures and Incantations are two good examp;les. If my MP has a total of -1 limitations on a 60 point pool, I'm not likely to have one slot that doesn't require Incantations or gestures, since that's costing me the slot cost + 10 points to remove those limits from the pool as a whole. OTOH, a spell requiring 2 handed gestures and/or gestures throghout the spell might be considered. However, even if that spell uses all 60 AP as a standard slot, I'm only saving 1 point adding a further -1/4 or -1/2 limitation, so is it really worth it? Maybe, if I don't have that extra 1 point, nbut guess where my first xp will go.

 

The Multi encourages a suite of standard limitations. This is great if you want spellcasters to have a suite of standard limitations (ie a spellcasting style based largely on disad's) and not so great if that's not what you want.

[Savinien]

Re: Ran my first FH session... some questions

 

Vancian system over-rides that by forcing a set number of lims as a campaign paradigm.

 

I hear what you're saying and everyone is right.

[atlascott]

Re: Ran my first FH session... some questions

 

"...are there drawbacks?"

 

Sure, the most obvious being that your wizard needs alot of experience points to buy a new spell, and ultra slots are all or nothing--purely one speall at a time, typically, which doesn't mimic magic in D&D or fantasy literature very well. And, his 8 spells are about it--not alot of variety.

 

I personally think that running a Fanasty Hero is a real chore. Im doing it now.

 

As soon as you get armor balanced out, someone keep increasing strength so that they can use a bigger weapon to do more damage. Then, they buy Deadly Blow (+1d6 killing damage.) On the other end, they buy comabt luck (3rPD/3rED) and everyone wants to follow suit, so now instead of everyone walking around in 8 rPD field plate, everyone effectively has 11 rPD. No now short swords and long swords have virtually no chance at getting through defenses.

 

And, if you use hit locations, you have a very, very deadly game, with the damage multipliers. Gritty and realistic, but deadly, and most people do not want a fantasy game with that sort of thing.

 

Same thing with skill levels. "Okay, I am buying 4 OCV only skills levels." So now, the 6 OCV is transformed to a 10, and the character can hit almost anything but a ninja...and if you throw a hard to hit opponent at the group, only the one guy has any chance at hitting the enemy.

 

I have a really great snow elf character with limited spell casting ability based on a VPP and learned spells with an INT based spell roll. Great conception, and he bought alot of background skills. But he cannot buy spells to make him effective enough to justify the cost, bc his poll is low powered, so he cannot cast the tougher stuff, and even though he is a Drow slayer, he is medicre in combat compared to the rest.

 

Contrast that with your typicall battle machine. Has to have the thickest armor, biggest weapon, highest strenth, most skill levels. No one else in the group can keep up with him.

 

ANother problem with running Fantasy Hero is the legacy idea of classes. There are certain things that everyone expects a Paladin to be able to do. No Paladin built on 75 + 75 is going to be able to do HALF of what makes a Paladin a Paladin.

 

As I have said before, Fantasy Hero could really benefit from an official game world with an official approach to magic, weapons, armor, etc. The campaign books so far are woefully inadequate. I just do not thin HERO system does sword and scorcery fantasy very well.

 

It seems that every session, some new problems occur, new imbalances become obvious. We;re having fun, which is the bottom line, but it is 3x the work to run Fantasy Hero than it would be run D&D of any flavor.

[Damascan]

Re: Ran my first FH session... some questions

 

"...are there drawbacks?"

 

Sure, the most obvious being that your wizard needs alot of experience points to buy a new spell, and ultra slots are all or nothing--purely one speall at a time, typically, which doesn't mimic magic in D&D or fantasy literature very well. And, his 8 spells are about it--not alot of variety.

 

I personally think that running a Fanasty Hero is a real chore. Im doing it now.

 

As soon as you get armor balanced out, someone keep increasing strength so that they can use a bigger weapon to do more damage. Then, they buy Deadly Blow (+1d6 killing damage.) On the other end, they buy comabt luck (3rPD/3rED) and everyone wants to follow suit, so now instead of everyone walking around in 8 rPD field plate, everyone effectively has 11 rPD. No now short swords and long swords have virtually no chance at getting through defenses.

 

Interesting. My whole gripe with D&D was the lack of flexibility in what it allowed me to do with characters, etc. -- it all seemed so arbitrary. Hero was always appealing for the ability to make unique characters, although it takes some effort.

 

Unfortunately, there often doesn't seem to be enough creativity to go around, so you end up with the armored brutes you are describing who can kill anything. That is, until they get hit with something unusual --- such as a mentalist wizard, or a team of thieves who lay a devastating trap, or a group of mercenaries with an excellent command of tactics and ability to use terrain to their advantage. Finally, how does your brute deal with language barriers? Political intrigues? Who covers his back in such situations?

 

Ultimately, the question is this: why can they all develop the same way? Why is the GM allowing this, if it is creating such an imbalance to the play? How does this advance the adventure and the plot if they are developing in this way?

 

The GM has final say in what is allowed, with the goal of promoting balanced and interesting play. Do you reward your snow elf for conception and role playing, since he/she brings such color to the game? Do you ever set up a plot around that character, showing off what he/she can do?

 

The potential is really amazing, if you give just a few nudges...

[Markdoc]

Re: Ran my first FH session... some questions

 

"...are there drawbacks?"

 

Sure, the most obvious being that your wizard needs alot of experience points to buy a new spell, and ultra slots are all or nothing--purely one speall at a time, typically, which doesn't mimic magic in D&D or fantasy literature very well. And, his 8 spells are about it--not alot of variety.

 

I personally think that running a Fanasty Hero is a real chore. Im doing it now.

 

'Cos you're doin' it wrong, son!

 

As soon as you get armor balanced out' date=' someone keep increasing strength so that they can use a bigger weapon to do more damage. Then, they buy Deadly Blow (+1d6 killing damage.) On the other end, they buy comabt luck (3rPD/3rED) and everyone wants to follow suit, so now instead of everyone walking around in 8 rPD field plate, everyone effectively has 11 rPD. No now short swords and long swords have virtually no chance at getting through defenses.[/quote']

 

Yep - which is why the experienced GM's keep writing on these boards that armour and combat luck shouldn't stack and deadly blow should be allowed sparingly, if at all - I don't allow it at all since not only is it unbalancing, but it's a kludge which doesn't work in regular hero system terms. In addition I recommend that STR should cost 2 points per CHA point. It won't stop people getting 18 or 20 STR, but it makes the decision to be really strong not quite such a no-brainer.

 

And' date=' if you use hit locations, you have a very, very deadly game, with the damage multipliers. Gritty and realistic, but deadly, and most people do not want a fantasy game with that sort of thing.[/quote']

 

Hit locations are optional. Personally I use them - I like combat to be reasonably fast and reasonably deadly, but they are an option.

 

Same thing with skill levels. "Okay' date=' I am buying 4 OCV only skills levels." So now, the 6 OCV is transformed to a 10, and the character can hit almost anything but a ninja...and if you throw a hard to hit opponent at the group, only the one guy has any chance at hitting the enemy.[/quote']

 

The 2 point levesl are not such a great deal - they can't be used on defence so Mr. "I have 10 OCV" also doubles as "woundboy". In addition they can only be used with a single specific attack (not, for example, a block) and they are useless if you are disarmed of the one wepaon you have bought them for. They seem irresistable, but players soon learn they are only so good and that fewer, more expensive levels are a better deal.

 

I have a really great snow elf character with limited spell casting ability based on a VPP and learned spells with an INT based spell roll. Great conception' date=' and he bought alot of background skills. But he cannot buy spells to make him effective enough to justify the cost, bc his poll is low powered, so he cannot cast the tougher stuff, and even though he is a Drow slayer, he is medicre in combat compared to the rest.[/quote']

 

I'd suggest not trying to compete with the full-on mage in raw magical power but play to your strengths. A fighter type with a small VPP is deadly - use a spray of ice to the eyes (flash) to blind opponents, and then take that head shot, use change environment (mist) to hide your presence and prevent archers hitting, chill your opponents blood (a small, continuous drain on DEX), or an ice slide (running) to give you mobility, sumon yourself a snow leopard companion, coat them in ice (entangle) etc. None of these require much in the way of active points. A fighter/ mage who can take advantage of both low-powered magical spells and combat skills with free weaponry, is traditionally the most dangerous foe in FH - but he needs to be smart.

 

Contrast that with your typicall battle machine. Has to have the thickest armor' date=' biggest weapon, highest strenth, most skill levels. No one else in the group can keep up with him.[/quote']

 

Well, that's his shtick - no-one else should be able to keep up with him in straight combat. That's all he does. He's going to pretty useless otherwise though, and a smart fighter/mage should be able to take him - the weapons and skill levels are pretty useless if he's entangled and greatly reduced if he's blind. Generally characters with only DEF and OCV going for them are pretty vulnerable - a slong as their opponents don't try to take them head to head.

 

ANother problem with running Fantasy Hero is the legacy idea of classes. There are certain things that everyone expects a Paladin to be able to do. No Paladin built on 75 + 75 is going to be able to do HALF of what makes a Paladin a Paladin.

 

Hmm. Very minor healing, some divine favour (luck) and the ability to detect evil. 20 points, tops (probably half that). Going higher up, a strong PRE (can use PRE attacks to boost allies or a limited version to turn undead), immunity to diseases, a follower (mount) and some pretty minor spell powers. Now I'm not a big fan of classes, except as a rough guidleine, but there's nuthin' expensive there.

 

As I have said before, Fantasy Hero could really benefit from an official game world with an official approach to magic, weapons, armor, etc. The campaign books so far are woefully inadequate. I just do not thin HERO system does sword and scorcery fantasy very well.

 

It seems that every session, some new problems occur, new imbalances become obvious. We;re having fun, which is the bottom line, but it is 3x the work to run Fantasy Hero than it would be run D&D of any flavor.

 

It is more work, that's definately true, but that naturally comes from the flexibility. There isn't as much prepackaged stuff and I'd agree what is available is much more limited. But on the rules side, D&D is a pretty limited system, geared almost exclusively to combat, which for us at least, tends gets boring - especially for the DM - after a while and chracters tend to be a bit "samey". Our most recent D20 game just collapsed - in part because the GM got tired of giant combat-fests and the pre-packaged material he used, doesn't really run to much more than that. The Hero game, OTOH, which naturally lends itself to more varied activities - is still rolling along (although I've been really bad about posting updates to this board). I guess you get out what you put in.

 

cheers, Mark