Supress & Dispel: How effective?

[SSgt Baloo]

I have never run a character, PC or NPC, with either Dispel or Supress. Just how effective are these two powers? Have you used them for PCs? how well did it work?

 

C'mon, folks, gimme some f'rinstances!

[Maccabe]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I am GMing a PC who is a "witch-hunter", this character has Suppress:Magic

to get past magical traps etc. 10d6 Suppress With the power limitation Only vs Magic (-1/2) it is effective enough to Suppress most 30pt defences (which is the powerful level of the game -> Standard power level)

I'd suggest that any Drain, Suppress etc be built with some limitation such as this not only to ensure effectiveness but to keep it from being too powerful.

[JmOz]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I am GMing a PC who is a "witch-hunter", this character has Suppress:Magic

to get past magical traps etc. 10d6 Suppress With the power limitation Only vs Magic (-1/2) it is effective enough to Suppress most 30pt defences (which is the powerful level of the game -> Standard power level)

I'd suggest that any Drain, Suppress etc be built with some limitation such as this not only to ensure effectiveness but to keep it from being too powerful.

 

You may want to reread the rules for the suppress power (all adjustment and psudo adjustment powers actualy), what you are describing as a limitation is normaly an advantage ranging from +1/4 to +2

[Thrakazog]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I, too, have never played a PC with either power. I don't like the all-or-nothing dilemma of dispel which makes me want to buy obscene amounts just to make sure. And I've just never gotten around to suppress, which I find expensive.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

You may want to reread the rules for the suppress power (all adjustment and psudo adjustment powers actualy)' date=' what you are describing as a limitation is normaly an advantage ranging from +1/4 to +2[/quote']

 

Yup. Suppress works, by default, against a mechanic, so a base Suppress would be Suppress Force Field (for example). You can suppress all force fields, but this has no impact on force walls, armor or Transform.

 

You could have "Suppress Force Fields - only magic (-1/2)", but that means you can only suppress force fields, and only if they have magical SFX.

 

The more common approach is to Suppress any one magical power (+1/4), but that 10d6 now costs 75 points. Altternatively, you can Suppress all magical powers, but that's a +2 advantage, so that 75 points now gets 5d6.

 

Suppress is cumulative, so you can layer on multiple applications to elliminate the power, although the END cost builds very quickly.

 

As to how effective, consider the ability to Dispel any one magical power. For 37 points, I get 10d6 (average roll 35). I use this to target the mage's glowing force field. Assuming that spell is under my roll (and 35 AP force fields in Fantasy Hero are pretty uncommon), the wizard needs to recast his force field before my swordsman teammate takes his reserved phase when the field drops...

[Cancer]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I don't think I've ever seen either power used by a character, except for the specific case of the wizard's classical "Dispel Magic" spell. Like Thrak says, Dispel's all-or-nothing makes it too scary to buy. I've toyed with the idea of Suppress, but I've also been told that my ideas along those lines set off people's munchkin detectors.

 

The threat of those effects instills in me the same fear-and-loathing reaction that the various mental powers do ... I throw a handful of points into Power Defense (just like I do Mental Defense) just so that I don't get squashed effortlessly when someone with those powers walks in.

[Zed-F]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

Suppress can be very effective under the right circumstances. It's 5 points per die, is inherently ranged, goes against an unusual defense, and is stackable. What's not to like? It's not permanent and has to be maintained, true, but that's not always an insurmountable problem.

 

Consider just how nasty a Suppress INT can get in a game where most characters have 20 INT or less and no power defense. Also consider how effective a Suppress EGO can be as an ersatz mental power, or a Suppress STR as an entangle on low-STR characters. Even taking off the top couple dice of punching damage or the top couple CV off the bell curve can be a big deal in the right circumstances.

 

For a character with a multipower including a Suppress, though, I tend to think of it as a finisher. You don't want to have to switch it off to apply a different power until the battle's over.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I once built a character with three different suppresses for a superhero game, Suppress vs. Flight, Suppress vs. force fields and Suppress vs. Energy Blast. They ran off an END reserve. If the game had gone more than a couple of sessions it would have turned out to be a terribly munchkin build, albeit unintentional. I had them at 12d6 and figured out in the first combat that Suppress vs. force field followed by suppress vs. flight tends to do VERY nasty things to the poor energy projector who suddenly finds himself falling from thirty inches up with only his very low natural PD to cushion the impact.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

Depends on genre a bit: I rarely bother with dispel in superhero games although it can be funny against movement powers, especially flight (but also running), depending on whether your GM believes in the conservation of momentum or not.

 

Also useful against defences as part of a coordinated attack: what defences?

 

Supress is plain nasty; it can affect characteristics. 12d6 supress v INT, END or even PD. Goodnight, sweetheart.

 

The thing about any adjustment power though, where it really comes into its own, is the low low cost of having it affect a large number of different things at once. Potentially quite monstrous.

 

I mean, the thing about Hero is that any reduction in ability does not work proportionally: reducing a 12d6 EB to 8d6 makes it practically useless - you do not need to go all the way to 0 to reduce its effectvie utility. Those first points count BIG.

 

OTOH these powers work best as part of a strategy, and part of a team where you have colleagues ready and able to take advantage of the suddenly depleted opposition.

 

Supress and dispel are very effective indeed, if used appropriately. Probably not first choice for a solo PC though, in most cases.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I mainly use both in Fantasy games, tho they have their uses everywhere.

 

I use Suppress SPD for a lot of effects like norse "war-fetters" spells (basically the inspiration of the old D&D Hold Person spell, as far as I can tell). It works quite well. Well enough to warrant a stopsign, actually.

[archermoo]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I generally avoid using them, both as a Ref and as a player. As a player, they are generally powers that reduce my enjoyment of the session when they are used against me. I'm not fond of having my abilities altered. I've lost interest in playing in campaigns that had major opponents that used such things on a regular basis. It isn't that I can't handle losing. I've had some very enjoyable times getting the tar kicked out of my characters. I just have never liked the "my schtick is taking your schtick away from you" type things.

 

As a Ref, since they are things that generally reduce my enjoyment when used against me as a player, I generally avoid them in case my players feel the same.

 

That being said, they are powers that can be VERY effective. Especially supress.

[1EyedJack]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

Both powers have there uses I like suppress because unless a target has alot of power defense you'll get at least some effect, dispel's all or nothing can be foiled by a moderate amount of power defense or a bad roll, unless it is bought for a very specific reason and you can just buy a metric but-load of it

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I am GMing a PC who is a "witch-hunter"' date=' this character has Suppress:Magic to get past magical traps etc. 10d6 Suppress With the power limitation Only vs Magic (-1/2) it is effective enough to Suppress most 30pt defences (which is the powerful level of the game -> Standard power level)[/quote']

Actually, with an average roll, a 10d6 Suppress will only reduce a Defensive Power by 17.5 active points. Remember that Adjustment powers have half effect vs Defenses!

 

I don't find any real reson to be paranoid about not having enough Dispel. If the typical power is 60 active points, that's enough to buy 20d6 of Dispel, which in turn has an average roll of 70 - more than enough for a 60-point power. If you're worried about a bad roll, you can always take Standard Effect, which still gets you the needed 60 points of effect.

 

In addition to the classic Dispel Magic, I've also had a character with "Dispel Poison" - stopping the effect of any poison effect, magical, natural, synthetic, or otherwise. It also works nicely for "cure disease" spells and the like.

[JmOz]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I am in the minority of people who feel that negative adjustment powers (such as drain, suppress & dispell) are over priced

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

(This is all good feedback by the way. Thanks!)

 

About the only way I've used supress or dispel in any of my campaigns is as justification for equipment that supresses the powers of the characters (or NPCs), making it difficult to escape. Usually this is in a stronghold-like setting. If it's the PCs in the "suppression trap" it's usually for the sole purpose of letting the villain gloat and explain his devious plan, now that the heroes are no longer in a position to stop him. Shortly after that, the heroes figure out how to use their unsuppressed abilities to break free and foil the villain in "Ta-Daaa!" Nick-o-Time HERO Fashion™. It just seems kind of expensive for the PCs to use and I usually don't do it the way it's laid out in the book, but as a plot device.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

Actually' date=' with an average roll, a 10d6 Suppress will only reduce a Defensive Power by 17.5 active points. Remember that Adjustment powers have half effect vs Defenses!...........................[/quote']

 

....which means, a 10d6 EB being the equivalent of a 10d6 supress, points wise, say the average game defences are 20-25 points, before supress you are doing 10-15 damage and after you are doing 27-33.

 

The way I look at effectiveness is highly nuanced, perhaps, but I reckon 3-4 hits should see you off in most cases, baring recoveries and such. Only lucky hits should stun.

 

Supressing defences is a great way to change the game balance: supressing anything is, really. It makes things far less predictable.

 

Now, built as part of a dedicated team who employ tactics and powers effectively, adjustment powers of any stripe are very very effective, but no more so, really, than flash or darkness or any of the mental powers.

 

I do, being stupid, try to keep things simple in a lot of cases, and I tend to hand out pretty boring characters, in build terms, for players: often pretty standard defences and attacks, movement powers and such: only the CV, DCs and DEF vary (well, perhaps not QUITE that vanilla), and I save the whack stuff for the villains. this means I can often build a villain that is a challenge even if not horribly powerful, and it gives me all kinds of build options to help with the variation.

 

Whilst I'm at it can I also mention how utterly gross THIS is:

 

1d6 +4 to max aid selective AOE, all mutant powers simultaneously, fade rate per minute (+3 1/2): 54 points

 

In a team of mutants, ALL mutant powers and characteristics go up by 10 active points for the duration of the fight, given a couple of phases preparation (or for 72 points you can make it 0 END and constant).

 

Synergy is a nasty thing: points spent are almost irrelevant next to context - in a team with powersuits that would be useless.

 

Now part of the effectiveness of adjustment powers comes fromt eh fact that, in the games we play, power defence is not often bought or bought big. If it was then tehy would be no more effective than anything else, which is back to context I suppose....

[slikmar]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I am running a character who uses bardic style music as a power. He has a dispel (18d6 iirc) vs. sonic based powers. He can use his perfect pitch to countersong them.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

Gadgeteer with Suppress vs any 1 fire power gadget (basically, a narrow-shooting fire extinguisher), encounters a Human Torch alike. Force field falls, hilarity and bruises ensue.

 

As a 'power I bought once and never used again', I also once had a character with the ability to Dispel Desolidification, only on targets that turn to liquid ... a cold-based character who could freeze liquids, including people like Riptide. THAT was an unpleasant surprise.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

Most abusive use I can think of on short notice:

 

Suppress Lack of Weakness (resistant defenses)

+

Find Weakness (resistant defenses)

+

KA

=

New PC next week.

[TheJudge]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I am GMing a PC who is a "witch-hunter", this character has Suppress:Magic

to get past magical traps etc. 10d6 Suppress With the power limitation Only vs Magic (-1/2) it is effective enough to Suppress most 30pt defences (which is the powerful level of the game -> Standard power level)

I'd suggest that any Drain, Suppress etc be built with some limitation such as this not only to ensure effectiveness but to keep it from being too powerful.

Hello There!

 

Actual the rules for all adustment powers already limit what it works on and needs advantages to make it work on groups of effects at once. I only bring this up because it would not be a limitation to make the suppress works only on magic, because you have to define it when you purchase it and buy the appropiate advantages to make it affect the whole group.

[TheJudge]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

I've used a character with a Dispel that was area effect , continuos, damage shield offensive, ) 0 End +2 all mutant power at once ( plus I've done magic and other sfx).

 

This produces a field that repeatedly shuts down your power (if the active points of the power are met) so even though normally you could just turn on your power after it's been dispeled on your next phase/action it would be shut off immediately creating the sfx of nullifying all powers in the area.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

A classic example of this would be a Wizard's Ray of Enfeeblement; it can be built as a Drain, but it's easier to build as:

 

9 Ray of Enfeeblement: Suppress STR 4d6, Uncontrolled (+1/2); Set Duration (Maximum of 30 END, -1/4); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Requires a Skill Roll (Necromancy, -1/2), OAF (Spell Components, a snip of kitten's fur, -1), Spell (Necromancy, -1/2)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

A classic example of this would be a Wizard's Ray of Enfeeblement; it can be built as a Drain, but it's easier to build as:

 

9 Ray of Enfeeblement: Suppress STR 4d6, Uncontrolled (+1/2); Set Duration (Maximum of 30 END, -1/4); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Requires a Skill Roll (Evocation Magic, -1/2), OAF (Spell Components, a snip of kitten's fur, -1)

 

I'd argue that build is easier (you have to keep track of END spent, figure out what breaks the Uncontrolled), but it's certainly truer to the spell's effect than a STR Drain at range. And Ray of Enfeeblement is a necromancy.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

HEY! Give a brother some credit. This is the first thing I've put together post-surgery; I wasn't terribly concerned that I got the school right. The "break" on the Uncontrolled is the max time limit -- instead of kludging it, I simply capped the total duration, hence, you won't be Enfeebled for much longer than, say... 3 phases at 9 END per Turn... 3 Turns, yeah? About 30 seconds. Made sense to me, and didn't seem to violate the letter of the rules in any way. I simply defined the break condition in advance, rather than after the fact.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Supress & Dispel: How effective?

 

Another one is Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter; I'd have to double check the design to make sure I'm running it right, but it's another Suppress style power with the SFX of making the target collapse in laughter. There are a bunch of other powers that run off similar principles. Big doorway open here for a different type of build than people are used too.