Realistic Aviation: Discuss

[SSgt Baloo]

The characters in my Champions campaigns nearly always had some sort of aerial transport available, but no PC actually flew the plane. That is, the transport was provided by the government (or some other benefactor) and was simply a means to ensure the heroes could get to where the action was. They couldn't just borrow it to fly to Italy for lasagna, because it wasn't theirs.

 

Later, though, I ran a campaign where one of the characters was not only a pilot, but his plane was his primary "superpower". This meant that what the plane could do and how it did it became a minor focus of the campaign. After all, we were all in the Air Force and all of us were aviation buffs to some degree (one of us had been a pilot in the Civil Air Patrol), so we started noticing discrepancies between real-world aircraft performance and what the hero's plane was capable of. We also noticed discrepencies between the real-world performance of historical airplanes and the ones I was modeling for the game.

 

F'rinstance, if the aircraft (and pilot) both have a SPD of 4, then the plane can accelerate to flight speed in 3 seconds, regardless of stall, whether the plane is taking off from land or water, the nature of the landing gear, etc. After much discussion, we decided that it was reasonable that:

 

All aircraft with a stall speed:

1. must have running or swimming.
   
2. Landplanes must have landing gear (represented by some amount of running, possibly, but not necessarily bought through a focus). A landplane may sell back its swimming.
   
3. Seaplanes must have flotation gear (boat hull, pontoons, whatever) represented by swimming. A seapane may sell back all of its running.
   
4. acceleration at or below stall is limited to the surface movement (running or swimming) limits.

 

This did not address every aspect of how Hero System rules differ from reality. Rather, it was a simple way to reduce the glare to a tolerable level.

 

What problems/solutions have you noticed and dealt with concerning aviation?

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

In retrospect, I guess there's not much interest in "realistic" aviation.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

The only issue I have with the vehicle rules with regard to aviation is combat that involves supers who can fly.

 

Most planes are built with movement that includes several non-combat* multiples just to get up to a few hundred MPH. I'm not talking about super-sonic. I mean the classic dogfighting speeds (~ 300 - 600 MPH).

 

The HERO combat rules do not really handle combat in this range for vehicles let alone characters even though it has been featured in film on a number of occasions (Superman: chasing missiles, The Incredibles, The new Iron Man movie with a chase vs. F-22's).

 

*non-combat movement

any vehicle or character moving at non-combat velocity automatically has a 0 OCV which normally cannot be increased by use of CSL's.

[Kenn]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

F'rinstance, if the aircraft (and pilot) both have a SPD of 4, then the plane can accelerate to flight speed in 3 seconds, regardless of stall, whether the plane is taking off from land or water, the nature of the landing gear, etc. After much discussion, we decided that it was reasonable that:

 

 

All aircraft with a stall speed:

1. must have running or swimming.
   
2. Landplanes must have landing gear (represented by some amount of running, possibly, but not necessarily bought through a focus). A landplane may sell back its swimming.
   
3. Seaplanes must have flotation gear (boat hull, pontoons, whatever) represented by swimming. A seapane may sell back all of its running.
   
4. acceleration at or below stall is limited to the surface movement (running or swimming) limits.

These seem reasonable. Then again, the few times I've built a Hero system aircraft with stall speed, I followed these as a matter of course.

 

It just seemed, to me, that any VTOL craft shouldn't have a stall speed.

[Maur]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

Well, if you want to get accurate then I think vehicle combat needs to be revamped. I don't agree with the premise that a vehicle has to slow to half its speed to be able to fire (guns, missiles, lasers, etc...). I also don't agree with the need for the pilot to have a speed at least equal to the aircraft to be able to control it. I can understand one going on the slower dex of the two (aircraft or PC), as the slower dex would represent the fact that the vehicle has a poor response time (e.g. big trucks, C130 aircraft, etc...).

 

realistically vehicles need quite a few stats.

Acceleration

Braking

Turn radius

Handling (bonuses or penalties to ones combat driving)

Top Speed

 

Aircraft add:

stall speed

max climb rate

max airspeed (above which you stall)

 

and unlike a PC a vehicle is always in motion once put into motion so it would be more realistic to always split its movement up into 12 phases. On all 12 a driver can maneuver the vehicle, but only on the PCs true phases could one fire the weapons. Or something like that.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

and unlike a PC a vehicle is always in motion once put into motion so it would be more realistic to always split its movement up into 12 phases. On all 12 a driver can maneuver the vehicle, but only on the PCs true phases could one fire the weapons. Or something like that.

 

A PC isn't automatically stopping and starting just because he acts on certain phases. That's a misinterpretation of the game construct.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

Well, if you want to get accurate then I think vehicle combat needs to be revamped. I don't agree with the premise that a vehicle has to slow to half its speed to be able to fire (guns, missiles, lasers, etc...). I also don't agree with the need for the pilot to have a speed at least equal to the aircraft to be able to control it. I can understand one going on the slower dex of the two (aircraft or PC), as the slower dex would represent the fact that the vehicle has a poor response time (e.g. big trucks, C130 aircraft, etc...).

 

realistically vehicles need quite a few stats.

Acceleration

Braking

Turn radius

Handling (bonuses or penalties to ones combat driving)

Top Speed

 

Aircraft add:

stall speed

max climb rate

max airspeed (above which you stall)

 

and unlike a PC a vehicle is always in motion once put into motion so it would be more realistic to always split its movement up into 12 phases. On all 12 a driver can maneuver the vehicle, but only on the PCs true phases could one fire the weapons. Or something like that.

 

Sounds almost like 3d edition Champions rules. I miss those!

[Cannon_Fodder]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

I am working on tinkering the rules for my group too. SPD and stall speeds are the areas of major concern for me right now.

 

SPD: I want to allow all vehicles to sell their SPD to zero. They act on the pilots SPD and unless a Disadvantage is purchased to limit SPD for large, sluggish, or non-combat vehicles they can all move up to SPD 12.

 

DEX: The Pilot acts on his DEX phase to show the Pilots Initiative. The pilot can buy CSLs to increase the OCV and DCV to simulate their skill in the vehicle. The skill is must have the Limitation (-0 “Specific Model of Vehicle”) and must buy the skills for each type of Vehicle he wants bonuses in (must have proper TF is a given).

 

Minimum Movement (stall speed): First, calculate the stall speed for the full turn and divide by 12 for inches/segment. During the pilot’s phase the vehicle must travel the in/seg. for that phase and the phases they skipped.

Eg. A SPD 3 Pilot is operating a vehicle that needs 4in/seg. On the pilot’s phase in Segment 8 the vehicle must move 16in (4in/seg. for Segments 5,6,7, and 8). A SPD 5 Pilot in an identicalon vehicle on Segment 8 would only need to move 12in (4in/seg. for Segments 6,7, and 8). Both vehicles will have had to move a total of at least 48in in a given turn.

 

I like the running and swimming for take of speed and several of the other ideas mentioned so far and my try to integrate them into my rules. I am doing a massive overhaul of the vehicle combat rules. When I start play testing I will post my compete “Vehicle Combat v2.0 Hero 5th EDr” rules for opinions.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

Most planes are built with movement that includes several non-combat* multiples just to get up to a few hundred MPH. I'm not talking about super-sonic. I mean the classic dogfighting speeds (~ 300 - 600 MPH).

 

The HERO combat rules do not really handle combat in this range for vehicles let alone characters even though it has been featured in film on a number of occasions (Superman: chasing missiles, The Incredibles, The new Iron Man movie with a chase vs. F-22's).

 

*non-combat movement

any vehicle or character moving at non-combat velocity automatically has a 0 OCV which normally cannot be increased by use of CSL's.

 

Not to mention the ranges between aircraft during a dogfight are (IMO) regularly beyond 300". A 50 cal. machine gun has an effective range a bit more than that IIRC. And those are "old school" dogfighting weapons nowadays.

 

DEX: The Pilot acts on his DEX phase to show the Pilots Initiative. The pilot can buy CSLs to increase the OCV and DCV to simulate their skill in the vehicle. The skill is must have the Limitation (-0 “Specific Model of Vehicle”) and must buy the skills for each type of Vehicle he wants bonuses in (must have proper TF is a given).

 

How about a 3 pt level for a particular "standard configuration" of weapons for a particular model of aircraft, 5 pt levels for all possible configurations for a particular model, or for the standard configs for a group of models? I.e., follow a similar progression as seen in the other Skill Levels.

 

The characters in my Champions campaigns nearly always had some sort of aerial transport available' date=' but no PC actually flew the plane. That is, the transport was provided by the government (or some other benefactor) and was simply a means to ensure the heroes could get to where the action was. They couldn't just borrow it to fly to Italy for lasagna, because it wasn't theirs.[/quote']

 

I.e., a plot device?

 

F'rinstance, if the aircraft (and pilot) both have a SPD of 4, then the plane can accelerate to flight speed in 3 seconds, regardless of stall, whether the plane is taking off from land or water, the nature of the landing gear, etc. After much discussion, we decided that it was reasonable that:

 

 

All aircraft with a stall speed:

1. must have running or swimming.
   
2. Landplanes must have landing gear (represented by some amount of running, possibly, but not necessarily bought through a focus). A landplane may sell back its swimming.
   
3. Seaplanes must have flotation gear (boat hull, pontoons, whatever) represented by swimming. A seapane may sell back all of its running.
   
4. acceleration at or below stall is limited to the surface movement (running or swimming) limits.
   

This did not address every aspect of how Hero System rules differ from reality. Rather, it was a simple way to reduce the glare to a tolerable level.

 

What problems/solutions have you noticed and dealt with concerning aviation?

 

I don't immediately agree with all of those. I haven't read the vehicle rules in ages, and I also haven't read my TUV and Vehicle Sourcebook. (Too busy ). But on the surface it strikes me that since the airplane isn't using the ground/water for more than just support, the wheels/skis/floats are not what is propelling the aircraft. Thus I would think they are just a special effect.

 

If an airplane were dependent upon it's Running to get up to flight speed, then a Change Environement (Ice Sheet) that reduces running would keep it from flying. That clearly isn't the case. And the flip side would be that you could chop the wings off of an airplane and (presuming it still has fuel) it can still use it's engine to run all over the place.

 

If it were me, I would simply treat a flying vehicle's flight that has Stall Speed as having "Cannot Climb When Below Stall Speed(-0)". This wouldn't prevent the airplane from using it's flight to accelerate up above it's stall speed while rolling on the ground/floating on the water. Which is how it works in the real world.

 

The problem I've thought about is how to simulate (build in game) an aircraft where the propulsive means (engines) are seperate from the lifting means (wings). The closest I've come is a non-book-legal build of buying Gliding, then adding a Naked Advantage of Useable As Flight (with possibly some more Flight Linked to that Naked Advantage).

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

I just found this table of V-speeds and was wondering what (if anything) might be useful in a detailed, realistic (or possibly cinematic) setting?

 

Plus, I have a question for some of the better-educated members of this board: How is cruise speed (Vc) determined? ISTR reading about several different aircraft with cruise just above stall (Vs1), just short of maximum level flight speed (Vh), or somewhere in between.

 

Can anyone 'splain this to me?

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

I don't immediately agree with all of those. I haven't read the vehicle rules in ages' date=' and I also haven't read my TUV and Vehicle Sourcebook. (Too busy ). But on the surface it strikes me that since the airplane isn't using the ground/water for more than just support, the wheels/skis/floats are not what is propelling the aircraft. Thus I would think they are just a special effect.[/quote']

 

I know the solution I implemented doesn't stand close scruitiny, but without it, aircraft fairly leapt from the ground in an absurdly short distance. I talked over the above implementation with my group and they agreed it (on the surface) made sense. Of course, it introduced other difficulties that we missed simply because the PCs' aircraft was mostly a plot device intended to get them where the action was. I suppose applying a slower acceleration rate on the flight itself might've worked, but even then, amphibious planes generally have a shorter take-off run from hard surfaces than from water.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

I just found this table of V-speeds and was wondering what (if anything) might be useful in a detailed, realistic (or possibly cinematic) setting?

 

Plus, I have a question for some of the better-educated members of this board: How is cruise speed (Vc) determined? ISTR reading about several different aircraft with cruise just above stall (Vs1), just short of maximum level flight speed (Vh), or somewhere in between.

 

Can anyone 'splain this to me?

 

IIRC, Cruse speed is (for civilian aircraft) 80% of Maximum speed in straight & level flight.

 

EDIT: IIRC, it's more precisely defined as the speed that gives the greatest range of the aircraft.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

I know the solution I implemented doesn't stand close scruitiny' date=' but without it, aircraft fairly leapt from the ground in an absurdly short distance. I talked over the above implementation with my group and they agreed it (on the surface) made sense. Of course, it introduced other difficulties that we missed simply because the PCs' aircraft was mostly a plot device intended to get them where the action was. I suppose applying a slower acceleration rate on the flight itself might've worked, but even then, amphibious planes generally have a shorter take-off run from hard surfaces than from water.[/quote']

 

I think it's safe to say that a general rule for aircraft is that they accelerate more slowly than ground vehicles because they are pushing against a fluid (air) and not a solid (ground). A -0 Limitation on the Fight of an Aircraft saying: Acceleration/Deceleration Is 3" Of Velocity Per Hex(-0) would handle that nicely IMO.

 

You can also apply this to floatplanes:

 

Physical Limitation: Floatplane (Frequently, Mildly). I'd write it up something like this:

 

This is an aircraft that is equipped to land on water by the addition of large pontoons attached in place of the usual landing gear. This is not to be confused with the Physical Limitation: Seaplane, which has part of the fuselage shaped like a boat hull.

 

While In water, Floatplanes accelerate slower, suffering a -1" of Velocity Per Hex (normally reducing it to 2" per Hex), but they can decelerate more rapidly, having a +1" of Velocity Per Hex (normally increasing it to 4" per Hex). This is due to the greater density and thus drag that water causes.

 

The large floats also impose a -1 on all Combat Piloting skill rolls. Most Floatplanes also have wheels for dry land, though they have to be manually extended/retracted while the plane is not in use. Note that the addition of floats to an airplane does not change its Transport Familiarity category.

 

================================================

 

(Can you tell I grew up on an airport? )

[Kdansky]

Re: Realistic Aviation: Discuss

 

I would not try to model such a plane at all. It's basically the Campaign Setting, and we usually also don't model castles, towns and lakes. If it's stalling, then it's stalling because the GM says so and it's time for some serious Profession Skill: Piloting rolling.