rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

[mytrustyd20]

We played our second game in my new Fantasy Hero campaign...it was a blast. I was very worried (we've been doing D&D as our campaign for over ten years). People are warming to this-they especially like the character creation of Hero and the hit locations and targetting in combat.

 

I do have a question or two though...

 

1) Movement/Attacks from behind: It seems as though everyone can always, on their turn, take a 1/2 move and get behind their enemy and attack from behind. A defender could put his back to the wall or fight "back to back" or something...but this seems weird to me. Am I missing something?

 

2) Combat Luck: The rules state that combat luck stacks with armor. I've been ruling that it doesn't. I do allow a level of deadly strike (which most players have, at one level), though and enemies have it too. Combat luck seems too powerful if allowed to stack with armor...but maybe it is necessary, given the increasing damage ranges. Does anyone have any advice on this?

 

Thanks much. This game seems to get better and better the more you play it (the opposite of D&D, in my opinion, which seems to get worse as you master it).

[Diamond Spear]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

1) Technically there is no way to prevent people from moving behind their opponents in combat. There are several solutions to this however. The easiest is to state that the opponent turns to face them Even though it might not be their turn to move it is not unreasonable to allow a simple change of facing. Also you can rule that since the opponents know they are there it is not really an “attack from behind” in respect to bonuses. If you want “book legal” options you can start having the bad guys hold their actions so they can react if the players move behind them. You can also have your NPCs perform the Defensive Maneuver. I don’t have a page reference (I’m at work) but it allows the person performing it to get their full DCV vs. attacks from behind.

 

2) I have no problem with you not allowing combat luck to stack with armor. None at all. Disallowing it is a perfectly acceptable house rule in fact. If you are planning on the damage ranges gradually moving up you could forbid beginning characters from buying combat luck and only allow it to be bought with experience points.

 

3) Welcome to HERO!

[steph]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

In my game i assume in a fight when the line of sight is establish and a character decide to go behind another to attack him .....................this character dont get the advantages of a surprise or sneak attack because we assume you can always turn on yourself to get face to face with your foe (this is part or we call character passive dcv) but you can use skills like acrobatics to get bonus etc etc

hope i am clear on that

english not my first langauge

stef

[Sir Ofeelya]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

I enforce a sort of unofficial engagement zone so PCs cannot move behind NPCS in the middle of combat to take advantage of rules. I also assume that combat is a fuid thing, with people leaping around and moving, not standing toe to toe hacking at each other until one falls. Some superleap and acrobatics is the way to do it.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

One thing to note about "attacking from behind", as well, is the feel that generates. If your players are supposed to be great heroes, well, always attacking the enemy from behind isn't very heroic. If people know these are the sort of heroes who'll stab a man in the back, that's going to have repercussions, where people are more wary to allow them to get behind them.

 

Of course, I don't know the feel you're going for; that kind of behavior fits in nicely with Conan-esque sword-and-sorcery. Classic epic fantasy? No, not really.

 

Of course, if that PC is the only one the NPC is facing, and the PC takes a half-move to be behind the NPC to attempt to halve the NPC's DCV, it seems silly to imagine the mook just standing there going, "Duhhhh . . . Where'd he go?"

 

Perhaps house-rule that turning is a 0-phase action? I don't have a book handy, so I can't say if that's already a rule or not.

[Kabluey]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

No one in my game has tried the half-move-to-attack-from-behind maneuver that you describe, so I haven't had to come up with any rules for it, but I did come up with some house rules regarding moving through zones of control that would be at least similar. If anyone did try that, after shaming them into using a rules exploit, I'd probably go with Diamond Spear's suggestion, i.e., just rule that the opponent faces them or is aware of them at least and thus they gain no benefit.

 

Not having Combat Luck stack is perfectly reasonable, though it does stack in my game - sort of. I actually put a hard limit of two levels of Luck (up to 6 PD/ED max), but also rule that only one level will stack when wearing any armor. This isn't so much to keep defense levels down for armor, but rather to make it possible for people who don't wear armor to at least sort of keep up.

[mytrustyd20]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

Thanks for all the replies. I was kinda thinking that the "attack from behind" thing would apply more to people coming out of nowhere to attack (kind of from surprise). On the flip side, if I nix it, then I kind of "gimp" my "hordes of thugs" who attack...most cannot "coordinate" since they don't/wouldn't have the skill, so the "attack from behind" move seems like a way to reward them a bit for their superior #'s.

 

If I rule that people turn to face attackers that they are aware of (as a free action or something) what kind of rule do you suggest I use/make up to give some advantages to "hordes"?

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

Well, there's the advantage in numbers thing, and the fact that your players can only face one direction at a time. They can be aware of all six people around them, but it's physically impossible for them to be facing in all six directions at once. So once the players dictate in which direction they're facing, they can't just change it in reaction to someone behind them scoring a hit. I'd rule that they can choose to face in whichever direction they choose, but, once they've used their action, they can't turn again.

[Markdoc]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

My rule is simple - attack from behind only counts if the person is for some reason unable to counter.

 

So... attack from behind when the person doesn't know you are there - that works.

Two attackers, one in front, one behind, that works too - you have to face one of them if you want to attack or efficiently defend (I guess you could turn side on to both of them and just try and dodge...)

Even stabbing someone from behind who was unable to move because (for example) he had his arm stuck in something would work.

 

Just running around the character won't work - pivot in place is essentially a free move. It's not like the character is frozen in time until his phase.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lord Liaden]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

I culled what seem to be relevant passages from the Online Rules FAQ.

 

 

Question: How long does it take a character to turn around/change facing?

 

Answer: The only specific rules in the system for changing facing pertain to Teleportation (5ER 234). As a default, changing facing while Running, Leaping, Swimming, or Swinging should be a Zero Phase Action in most circumstances, meaning a character can’t do it after performing a Full Phase Action, but the GM can change that based on the situation, the abilities involved, common and dramatic sense, and other relevant factors. Changing facing with Flight or Teleportation is governed by Turn Modes and/or the the use of the Position Shift Adder (5ER 124, 234).

 

 

 

Question: Does "Surprised" differ from "being attacked from behind," and what are the implications for Defense Maneuver and the like?

 

Answer: Generally speaking, there’s no difference between "Surprised" and "from behind." The very first sentence describing the Surprised Combat Modifier lists "from behind" as one possible way to be Surprised. The DCV Modifiers Table on 5ER 372 lists the condition separately for the simple reason that the table would be largely useless if it didn’t list common conditions modifying DCV - that’s the whole reason it’s there. The "from behind" penalties mirror those for Surprised because they’re the same thing.

 

The solution is to apply the concept of "expecting an attack" with a little common and dramatic sense. Ordinarily a character in combat expects to be attacked. Another attacker leaping out from ambush in addition to whoever’s already attacking him probably isn’t much of a surprise. Neither is a character with Stretching reaching around to smack him "from behind." In those situations, there’s probably no good reason to apply a "Surprised in combat" modifier.

 

On the other hand, even if someone’s in combat, a new attacker creeping up on him from behind, particularly if Invisible or using Stealth or the like, probably would inflict the "Surprised in combat" modifier on the character, at least for his first attack. It doesn’t make much sense that Invisibility, or even Stealth, would become completely useless in that situation. If the character has good reason to suspect an attack from behind or from an Invisible foe, perhaps the modifier shouldn’t apply - and in any event there are already penalties for being unable to sense an Invisible opponent.

 

The benefit to Defense Maneuver I is that reasonableness of belief becomes irrelevant. The character’s fighting style or perceptions keep him from being Surprised from behind in combat regardless.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

I would, the first time it's done in a combat, call it a "trick" (a la kicking sand in an opponent's face, shining sunlight in his face using your sword blade, etc.) and rule that it only works the first time. After that you don't get the bonus.

[The Suave]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

I would' date=' the first time it's done in a combat, call it a "trick" (a la kicking sand in an opponent's face, shining sunlight in his face using your sword blade, etc.) and rule that it only works the first time. After that you don't get the bonus.[/quote']

 

I feel that things like that should be described by the player. They should be encouraged for their creative and cinematic elements, but would require a roll. I don't think they should be given by the GM, it seems like a creative freebie. :\

[Killer Shrike]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

My rule is simple - attack from behind only counts if the person is for some reason unable to counter.

 

So... attack from behind when the person doesn't know you are there - that works.

Two attackers, one in front, one behind, that works too - you have to face one of them if you want to attack or efficiently defend (I guess you could turn side on to both of them and just try and dodge...)

Even stabbing someone from behind who was unable to move because (for example) he had his arm stuck in something would work.

 

Just running around the character won't work - pivot in place is essentially a free move. It's not like the character is frozen in time until his phase.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I concur.

 

Technically speaking, Steve Long has relatively recently said that the Attacked From Behind modifier to DCV is largely intended for "surprise" situations. I don't agree with this assessment myself, but I think it is important to make a distinction that its not intended to allow people to constantly just half move and hit from behind every Phase.

 

Its largely a case of when it makes sense that an opponent's back is exposed, and a strike at their back without them being able to adjust first is reasonable.

 

It can still be valid for an attacker to half move and strike from behind on occasion, but I would suggest that this be true only in combination with something else. For instance:

 

* use of the Acrobatics Skill to move around them in an unexpected and sudden way

* use of the Feint Skill (from Ultimate Skill) for much the same effect

* as another use for trading in Combat Levels to achieve an affect (I would recommend 3 5 point or better levels -- ie HtH, All Combat, or Overalls)

* the defender is actively engaged with another opponent and can't reasonably change facing; this might require a Tactics Skill roll or Teamwork Skill roll to take advantage of the situation

* something in the environment or current situation makes it circumstantially difficult for the defender to turn around quickly, such as fighting on ice or on precarious footing (although this is already modeled to some extent by DCV penalties)

* the attacker is using Teleportation

* the defender fumbled (rolled an 18) on their previous Phase

* the defender intentionally turned their back on the attacker in their previous Phase to accomplish something else and have not had a reasonable chance to recover or to respond by changing their facing again (for instance, they are running away)

* other circumstances that seem appropriately disadvantaging to the defender

 

 

If it becomes a problem, some things to keep in mind:

 

* A character can change their facing as part of an Abort.

* Defense Maneuver is a very handy thing to have

* If you keep trying the same trick against someone they catch wise to it; this can be represented in a variety of ways such as:

-- OCV penalties to the attacker

-- DCV penalties to the attacker

-- DCV bonuses to the defender

-- Block OCV bonuses to the defender

-- DEX off bonuses to the defender (so that they can hold, wait for the attacker to try their stunt again, and then whack them before they can get it off)

-- Initiative bonuses to the defender

-- forcing a contested DEX off between the attacker and defender as a non action to see if the attacker is quick enough to get around the defender

-- whatever else seems appropriate

[Erkenfresh]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

1) Personally, I've never bothered with attacks from behind during combat. I could certainly see it used when two people are on opposite sides of an opponent though.

 

2) That's a fine rule since the armor weighs you down too much to twist away from the weapons (and of course there's a balance issue with too much DEF).

 

 

I made a similar transition from D&D to Hero about a year ago. I don't miss D&D at all. You can do so much more with your character in Hero besides bump a few skills up every level.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

2) Combat Luck: The rules state that combat luck stacks with armor. I've been ruling that it doesn't. I do allow a level of deadly strike (which most players have, at one level), though and enemies have it too. Combat luck seems too powerful if allowed to stack with armor...but maybe it is necessary, given the increasing damage ranges. Does anyone have any advice on this?

 

Thanks much. This game seems to get better and better the more you play it (the opposite of D&D, in my opinion, which seems to get worse as you master it).

 

if there is one thing Ive got a surplus of, its advice.

 

Combat Luck

 

Stacking Defenses

[War Cry]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

 

2) Combat Luck: The rules state that combat luck stacks with armor. I've been ruling that it doesn't. I do allow a level of deadly strike (which most players have, at one level), though and enemies have it too.

 

Thanks much. This game seems to get better and better the more you play it (the opposite of D&D, in my opinion, which seems to get worse as you master it).

 

Welcome to the boards and glad you and your posse are having fun.

 

Quick question for you. As you have stated above that most players have deadly blow, did they take it for character concept or because of the "Hey look! I get to do alot of extra damage!"? I've found that this one of those things that players drool over (at least, my old group did) and find new and interesting ways to abuse. You may have to keep an eye on this.

 

IMHO, if you have DB as common as it appears to be, I don't see a reason to disallow CL stacking.

 

Really though, it is nothing to sweat over. As you play more and get used to the system, all kinds of cool things open up and make DB and CL look like child's play:D

 

Oh, and check out KS's links above. Loads of good info and easily usable. material

[Mad Fnorder]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

The way my GM has always run it (And I've grown to agree) is more toward the surprise bonus side of things. If you run around someone from in their field of vision to out of it, just to try and whack them from behind, you don't get a bonus unless it is combined with something, well, surprising- like invisibility. They know you're there, more or less. Even Teleporting or such will only work once, especially if you have a return fight with the same foes.

 

Admittedly it has a bit more of a superheroic sensibility to it, given that FH movement rates tend to be lower, but it seems to make things a bit smoother.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: rules questions (Fantasy Hero)

 

The way my GM has always run it (And I've grown to agree) is more toward the surprise bonus side of things. If you run around someone from in their field of vision to out of it, just to try and whack them from behind, you don't get a bonus unless it is combined with something, well, surprising- like invisibility. They know you're there, more or less. Even Teleporting or such will only work once, especially if you have a return fight with the same foes.

 

Admittedly it has a bit more of a superheroic sensibility to it, given that FH movement rates tend to be lower, but it seems to make things a bit smoother.

 

Invisibility already has its own rules for combat that are even more severe than the suprised or from behind modifier.

 

If you can't sense an opponent with a targeting sense (whether because you are blinded or they are invisible) you are at 1/2 OCV 1/2 DCV in HtH and 0 OCV 1/2 DCV at range.

 

If you can make a PER check w/ a non targeting sense you are at -1 DCV 1/2 OCV in HtH and full DCV 1/2 OCV vs opponents you sensed.

 

Thats from memory, but its in the begining of the combat and adventuring section where it discusses senses.