Super Origins

[Tim]

Re: Super Origins

 

That's pretty much my point. Cap's origin doesn't make him as "superhuman" in most respects just at the peak of what humans can possibly accomplish and he can perform feats that rival what many "mutants" and ostensibly super humans can. Which is why I said "whatever peak human efficency means". Wanderer's issue seems to be with "mere humans" competing with "superhumans" (by which I imagine he means beings with superhumans powers). Captain America, which he lists as exception is in the human range according to his definition just at the very top end of it, backed by immense drive, determination and skill. The Super Soldier serum, in meta game terms, was just the plot device that let him leap frog the "Years and years of intense training" other types of human type characters have to go to reach those levels.

 

As I read this I have Cap do some things that require amazing willpower. Could you see him with a GL ring?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Super Origins

 

Could you see him with a GL ring?

 

Nah... it would have to be red, white and blue

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Origins

 

As I read this I have Cap do some things that require amazing willpower. Could you see him with a GL ring?

 

Wrong cosmology. But I can easily see him being bestowed with yet another replica of Thor's Hammer. Stormbringer America or somesuch. Too bad Asgard went the Krypton way Wait, he could forge a ring with a slice of some cosmic cube, I suppose.

[Kali Magdalene]

Re: Super Origins

 

If your heroic spirit' date=' intense focus, brains, and devotion drive you to transcend human limitations and tap Ultimate Cosmic Secrets of Power , you have my blessings. Otherwise, don't expect that playing with batrangs and arrows will let you anything else than a pathetic would-be pretender and a beating to happen at the hands of those who *truly* realized human potential.[/quote']

 

I guess the major problem I have with this point of view (which works for some settings, I think - Wildstorm seems to go there most of the time) is that it carves off several iconic superheroes and makes them unavailable as viable characters.

 

Also, you seem to have a bit of a mean streak about it.

[nexus]

Re: Super Origins

 

If your heroic spirit' date=' intense focus, brains, and devotion drive you to transcend human limitations and tap Ultimate Cosmic Secrets of Power , you have my blessings. Otherwise, don't expect that playing with batrangs and arrows will let you anything else than a pathetic would-be pretender and a beating to happen at the hands of those who *truly* realized human potential.[/quote']

 

As I said before, your opinions and preferences aren't natural law. Your are welcome to them but you've also displayed an incredibly arrogance and tendency to insult those that disagree with you. I, nor as far I can telll anyone else, hasn't dismissed your preference as being any more implausible than anything else presented in comics. That direction in the disucssion seem to lie largely in your court and for reasons I can't entirely discern.

[nexus]

Re: Super Origins

 

As I read this I have Cap do some things that require amazing willpower. Could you see him with a GL ring?

 

That's a scary thought....

 

Nah... it would have to be red' date=' white and blue [/quote']

 

LOL

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Origins

 

I guess the major problem I have with this point of view (which works for some settings' date=' I think - Wildstorm seems to go there most of the time) is that it carves off several iconic superheroes and makes them unavailable as viable characters.[/quote']

 

No, they are just in need of being slightly redefined in background and origin. As I see it, redefining Bat-clones as adepts of the exotic martial Path of Night Hunting does not spoil their determination and courage, it just channels them though means that are more believable, and hence more respectable. You just have to redefine their origin to "chi", "magic", "subconscious reality-warping", or somesuch instead of "hyper-training". IMO, it's a slight sacrifice of iconic purity to cut down the cheesy level.

 

Also, you seem to have a bit of a mean streak about it.

 

Yep, I guess my intense antipathy for the Green Arrow character types shows. I've never been able to see them other than exceedingly stupid and cheesy circus refugees. Sorry to Oliver Queen and Clint Barton fans, but to my eyes, they look just like Foxbat. At least, Batman types have the polymat angle and the "world's best strategist" niche to grant them coolness.

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Origins

 

As I said before' date=' your opinions and preferences aren't natural law. [/quote']

 

Yep, unluckily I have so far missed my ascension

 

Your are welcome to them but you've also displayed an incredibly arrogance and tendency to insult those that disagree with you.

 

Unless some Hero forumite happens to be Bruce Wayne or Oliver Queen in disguise, I fail to see how I could have insulted them.

 

As for arrogance, well, you are probably, sadly right. The dark side of self-confidence. Sorry. I guess it's written someplace on my Heavenly Char Sheet.

 

I, nor as far I can telll anyone else, hasn't dismissed your preference as being any more implausible than anything else presented in comics.

 

Quite true. As a matter of fact, my whole argument is based on the fact that a thematic tightening of superheroic origins would improve the believability of the genre. If anything, I was arguing for more plausibility. Of course, this is based on the aesthetic assumption that better believability = better quality. To my justification, I can argue that it's the same kind of aesthetic preference that has led many comic authors to rework the origins of many iconic superheroes that growing scientic knowledge or changing societal sensibilities has pushed out of believability or taste. I would simply like to take the process that birthed the Ultimate Marvel Universe, the Wildstorm Universe, and John's Byrne Post-Crisis Man of Steel one step further or two. Blame my excessive enthusiasm and impatience to purge the genre of legacy bits if you wish. Differently from several of you, while being a veteran of the genre, I feel no nostalgia of reverence whatsoever for the "classic" incarnation of the genre. I've experienced the transition from Silver to Bronze to hardcore Iron to current postmodern as a constant improvement of quality and to a large degree, the fulfillment of my rookie fan dearest wishes of back then, hence my impatience to drop the legacy baggage.

 

That direction in the disucssion seem to lie largely in your court and for reasons I can't entirely discern.

 

I cannot answer to this b/c I don't understand the idiomatic sense, sorry .

[nexus]

Re: Super Origins

 

 

 

Unless some Hero forumite happens to be Bruce Wayne or Oliver Queen in disguise, I fail to see how I could have insulted them.

 

You've been pretty insulting about other people's preferences. You're could be labelled with a few unflattering terms as well. So far no one has done that but explain their own opinions and defended them from attack.

 

Quite true. As a matter of fact, my whole argument is based on the fact that a thematic tightening of superheroic origins would improve the believability of the genre. If anything, I was arguing for more plausibility. Of course, this is based on the aesthetic assumption that better believability = better quality.

 

This is based on your opinion that what you prefer is more "beleivable". Some beg to differ.

 

I cannot answer to this b/c I don't understand the idiomatic sense, sorry .

 

Put simply you've been the only person that's been obnoxious and condescending about it.

[McCoy]

Re: Super Origins

 

As I read this I have Cap do some things that require amazing willpower. Could you see him with a GL ring?

 

Steve Rogers, Green Lantern.

 

Oh my

[McCoy]

Re: Super Origins

 

Wrong cosmology. But I can easily see him being bestowed with yet another replica of Thor's Hammer.

He has picked up Mjolnir before.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Super Origins

 

Back when I was actively GMing, I used to define my campaigns pretty much by the origins allowed. There are times when I have disallowed magic or alien tech simply because they open up a huge can of worms that I didn't want to deal with. Usually I disallow an origin because of the flavor I'm going for. I'm very into cosmologies, though, and that is a great part of the fun for me when designing a new game world. Where do super-powers come from? How does magic work? How many alien races have contact with Earth and how advanced are they? Who are the classic gods of myth and where are they today? Etc. Once I got a bit tired of all of this prep work and said I would just play "anything goes" Champions, but the chaos of Wolverine, Golden Age Superman and a Jedi Knight just gets to me.

 

I guess I'm a bit anal that way. I'm sure it's a big part of why I was so enamored of the graphic novel Earth X, an attempt to rationalize all of the wild chaotic histories into a Grand Unifying Theory of the Marvel Universe.

 

As to the trained human thing...yeah, trained human on the same scale as Kryptonian or other 'true' superhuman bothers me. Batman is, er, was supposed to appeal to that same element that James Bond appeals to: sure, the things he does are outrageous, but they're human. Batman brought a certain plausibility to the picture that Superman didn't. Both are ok, but with Supes you just say from the beginning "This is impossible...ok, I can accept that." With Batman you said "This is insane!...but it's possible, sort of, maybe...cool!" Batgod doesn't carry that plausibility anymore. You have to say "This is impossible..." in the beginning, but for myself that's not what I should be saying for Batman. I can't accept that.

 

Take it as you will.

[OddHat]

Re: Super Origins

 

I guess I'm a bit anal that way. I'm sure it's a big part of why I was so enamored of the graphic novel Earth X, an attempt to rationalize all of the wild chaotic histories into a Grand Unifying Theory of the Marvel Universe.

 

Best Marvel What If / Reboot ever, with the possible exception of the Ultimate books. I'd still seriously tweak it before using it as a campaign setting, but a very good TPB.

[nexus]

Re: Super Origins

 

When has Batman defeated Superman (or character of a similar scale) without some kind of edge or ace in the hole? Serious question, I don't read much DC.

[OddHat]

Re: Super Origins

 

When has Batman defeated Superman (or character of a similar scale) without some kind of edge or ace in the hole? Serious question' date=' I don't read much DC.[/quote']

 

It's part of the BatGod power set that he'll always have an edge or ace in the hole. A BatGod homage should probably be built with a ton of luck and a gadget pool with 2 charges per day of "Cosmic" to represent pre-planning.

[nexus]

Re: Super Origins

 

It's part of the BatGod power set that he'll always have an edge or ace in the hole. A BatGod homage should probably be built with a ton of luck and a gadget pool with 2 charges per day of "Cosmic" to represent pre-planning.

 

Yeah, but this idea keeps getting tossed around about Batman smacking around a Kryptonian level opponent with his bare hands. Has that actually happened?

[OddHat]

Re: Super Origins

 

Yeah' date=' but this idea keeps getting tossed around about Batman smacking around a Kryptonian level opponent with his bare hands. Has that actually happened?[/quote']

 

Not that I've seen, but then I haven't followed DC since around 1990 outside of Vertigo and a TPB here or there. Karate Kid smacked around Kryptonian level foes now and then, but Karate Kid was a Chinese Myth level martial arts master of Super Karate; "realistic" need not apply.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Super Origins

 

Yeah' date=' but this idea keeps getting tossed around about Batman smacking around a Kryptonian level opponent with his bare hands. Has that actually happened?[/quote']

 

No. Not in continuity.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Super Origins

 

Yeah' date=' but this idea keeps getting tossed around about Batman smacking around a Kryptonian level opponent with his bare hands. Has that actually happened?[/quote']

 

Bats hasn't.

 

KK is the only one that has and he never strait punched him - it was throwns, holds and such. And he "mastered every martial art of every known world in the 30th century".

[Bloodstone]

Re: Super Origins

 

Well, it's not exactly what you asked for and I don;t have the issue in my hands, but a moment that is kinda fresh in my mind:

 

When Wonder Woman was blinded, she took out almost the entire JLA in a training session. At the same time. This included such heavy hitters as Martian Manhunter and The Flash (Wally West). She was using her other senses to compensate for the loss of her vision.

 

Batman was the only one to get a drop on her and, if I recall, actually tag her (flying kick I think). The excuse being that everyone else was holding back because of her disability and that Bruce wouldn't... and that Batman's Kung Fu and Stealth is apparently just that strong.

 

Mind you, they didn't get to the point of Bats actually taking her down but we all know he had a plan to do so if necessary. Chances are that plan did not involve trading blows with her though...

 

I should probably add I'm not really against Batman/Hawkeye types, though there have been many occasions where bad writing has made them cause the rest of the team look pretty incompetent.

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Origins

 

No. Not in continuity.

 

If it is indeed so (but see below), I drop several of my objections. False memories and all that. Sorry. But I also seem to have this fuzzy, perpheral-vision, memory of a high-end powerhouse brick (Hulk, probably) being defeated by some street-level martial artist-type (Daredevil, perhaps) with some quick pressure points-technique. Can anyone confirm if this is true or false memory, too ?

 

As I said, I have no objections to the Batgod's sthcik (sp?) of always having a decent edge or ace in the hole, if afforded some pre-planning. Sometimes he gets written with maybe just a bit too hype, but super-smart humans are well within my boundaries of believability and they build upon a very strong fictional tradition, both in genre (Dr. Doom is probably the closest analogue, IMO, and I am an old big fan of the good doctor, even if the most recent appearance was completely out of character) and out of it, and he has my fond blessing. Green Arrow and Hawkeye still suck deeply, however (even if Arrowette I, notwithstanding the suck-y power set, was a very nice and charming young woman, the little time she was around in Young Justice). Sorry to sincere fans.

 

Well, it's not exactly what you asked for and I don;t have the issue in my hands, but a moment that is kinda fresh in my mind:

 

When Wonder Woman was blinded, she took out almost the entire JLA in a training session. At the same time. This included such heavy hitters as Martian Manhunter and The Flash (Wally West). She was using her other senses to compensate for the loss of her vision.

 

Batman was the only one to get a drop on her and, if I recall, actually tag her (flying kick I think). The excuse being that everyone else was holding back because of her disability and that Bruce wouldn't... and that Batman's Kung Fu and Stealth is apparently just that strong.

 

Mind you, they didn't get to the point of Bats actually taking her down but we all know he had a plan to do so if necessary. Chances are that plan did not involve trading blows with her though...

 

You see, this example is instead just where I draw my line and what I find deeply objectionable in the BatGod character. Bats vanquishing WW by means of some clever pre-planned trick (the way he did with the whole Jla in that sotiry arc that caused his expulsion) is fine. Keep go. Him holding his ground or besting her hand-to-hand, when Diana is supposed to have at least just as good combat training (all those Paradise Island sparring sessions, not to matter decades of superhuman battles) AND high-end superhuman physical attributes, when all other JLA powerhouses fail, smack me of really gratuitous Larry-Sue fanboyism. He is already world's greatest detective, strategist, etc. Couldn't he be just left taking a beating from his physical superiors, when he meets them in their field ?? Too bad for Superman that Batgod wasn't around when Doomsday was rampaging, otherwise he would have spared a death and resurrection.

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Origins

 

He has picked up Mjolnir before.

 

Yep, and it was the full, "You Are Worthy, My Son" Beta Ray Bill thing, not the "Only This Time, Big Boy; Don't Get Any Ideas" Superman thing. Too bad it didn't went with the usual Asgardian power boost and change of costume that Beta Ray Bill and Thunderstrike got. A hybrid Norse Thunder God - America's supersoldier icon costume would have been... interesting to see. And it might have been the topic for a whole What If Story: What If Steve Rogers Got Mjolnir ??

[OddHat]

Re: Super Origins

 

As I said, I have no objections to the Batgod's sthcik (sp?)

 

"Shtick".

[transmetahuman]

Re: Super Origins

 

The times I've played in a supers campaign, no one has wanted a "highly trained human" origin, so I don't have any direct experience with it. But reading this thread, I'm wondering if this argument is even relevant. Batman doesn't win against these godlike beings because of anything on his character sheet, he wins because the writers make him win. How could someone trying to create a Batgod character write one up? A cosmic gadget pool, sure, and probably some stats up to about 30, but anything that actually does put him up there in combat effectiveness with a Hulk clone or whatever is going to stick out like a sore thumb during character creation. "Uh, your character is supposed to be human, right? How does he justify that Damage Reduction, then?" Either he's going to end up a tech-based character, or he's going to go down quickly. Combat Luck only goes so far...

 

On the question in general, I do like creating worlds with consistent power sources, but in practice the few times I've GMed I've kept things more open-ended so far. Replicable tech just needs justification. I theoretically limit hidden/alien races, too, but that doesn't mean a player can't make one - they become part of the world and I'd be less likely to allow a similar but different race from a PC in the future (if a game ever lasted long enough for that to be an issue, sigh).

 

About the only thing I don't like is actual gods (as opposed to extraterrestrial/extradimensional aliens who have been worshipped as gods) and religious concepts in general - I don't like to establish objective moral forces in my campaigns. Then there are specific ability bans like time travel, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

I do want to pull out one of the defined cosmologies I've been working on someday, though.

 

*I can't believe firefox's spell checker lets "curmudgeonly" through but not "pics"... or "firefox"!

[GoldenAge]

Re: Super Origins

 

If it is indeed so (but see below)' date=' I drop several of my objections.[/quote']

I think it's time to drop em.

...memory of a high-end powerhouse brick (Hulk' date=' probably) being defeated by some street-level martial artist-type (Daredevil, perhaps) with some quick pressure points-technique. Can anyone confirm if this is true or false memory, too ? [/quote']

Daredevil did indeed battle the Hulk. He hit him in every nerve cluster possible... twice. Daredevil even went so far as to drive a bus into the Hulk. All it got him was broken and battered. The Hulk thrashed the Man Without Fear to within an inch of his life.

On the other hand. Batman and the Hulk engaged in a silly 1980s cross-company rag called Marvel and DC presents: Batman vs. the Incredible Hulk - Wherein Batman encounters Hulk under Joker's control and stops his rampage using a gas bomb. The stupid thing your remembering is the blow that Batman landed on the Hulk that forced him to take a deep breath of the gas. Silly, I agree. However, this (and all DC/Marvel cross-overs) is seen as being outside of a character's continuity. It never happened. (thank god)

 

You need to be more careful which stories you consider character canon. (or do you believe that Wolverine can beat up Lobo too?)

 

 

...Couldn't he be just left taking a beating from his physical superiors' date=' when he meets them in their field ?? Too bad for Superman that Batgod wasn't around when Doomsday was rampaging, otherwise he would have spared a death and resurrection.[/quote']

 

Often this is EXACTLY what happens. It's boringly apparent that you've never really read the Batman lines of books and that your personal convictions totally cloud the truth about the actual character.