Speedsters:

[assault]

Re: Speedsters:

 

So . . . build these three with Multiform?

 

Hmm... Dodgy, but interesting.

 

The actual Multiform itself would suck up a lot of points, so the base character wouldn't be able to do much. On the other hand, you could build a character that has most of the neat non-combat stuff in one form, and the combat stuff in another.

 

I have a multiform Ultra Boy design sitting around, but the main problem with him is that his invulnerable form is the one he spends most of his time in, and so should probably be his base form. Unfortunately it's probably his most expensive form.

 

A Johnny Quick style character with a non-powered base form, and two powered forms probably would work, if you could talk a GM into accepting it. It's a bit bogus, though.

 

I might have a bit of a play around with this.

[OzMike]

Re: Speedsters:

 

My biggest problem with speedsters is at the lower end. They tend to suck up the points pretty hugely, especially if you want them to have a range of neat tricks.

 

It's easy enough to build them as regular "three power" characters:

(1) offensive power

(2) defensive power

(3) movement power

 

You just need to balance them towards the third power more than most. Unfortunately, the result tends to be rather bland if you are looking for a Flash/Johnny Quick type character. It's less of a problem if you are trying to build Nightcrawler, although even there you tend to lose a lot of the "neat but non-essential" stuff.

 

Basically, a lot of characters really suck at less than 350 points.

 

OK - I'm bored at work. I don't have any of the books but here is a go at a 250 pt speedster. It's just noodling really, and if I had time and the books I could do a better job, but it's a start. Those unspent points could be spent on skills, something to improve END-usage, more superspeed tricks, and things like that.

 

STATS (165 pts)

15 STR 5pts

35 DEX 75pts

23 CON 26pts

10 BOD 0 pts

13 INT 3pts

11 EGO 2pts

15 PRE 5pts

12 COM 1pt

15 PD 12pts

15 ED 10pts

6 SPD 15pts

8 REC 0pts

46 END 0pts

30 STN 0pts

10" Running 8pts

3/1.5" Leaping 0pts

5" Swimming 3pts

 

Powers (54pts)

30 Super Speed Powers

3u +15" Running (25" tot) - Combat running

2u +6D6 HTH - Normal rapid fire punches (9D6 tot)

1u Megascaled running

3u Invisibility to normal sight - Just a blur of movement

3u Change environment 5" Radius - Tidy things up etc.

1u Instant change

 

4 6 PD/ED Damage Resistance - OIF - Supersuit

7 15 STR Clinging, linked to running - run up buildings etc

 

31 pts Unspent

[assault]

Re: Speedsters:

 

Replying to myself...

 

I might have a bit of a play around with this.

 

After a bit of "back of the envelope" work...

 

I don't think the Multiform idea works well enough to justify its dubiousness.

 

A simple OIHID build would work better for a Johnny Quick type.

 

Roughly, for a 250 point character:

Characteristics: 125 points (some will be OIHID)

Skills/Perks: 25 points

 

100 points powers, broken up as:

about 80 points: multipower, OIHID. Roughly based on the "Dimensional Innovator" MP in the Champions genre book.

about 20 points: extra PD, ED, Combat Luck. Some OIHID, some not.

 

He won't have a huge CV or Speed, but will have half-decent defences, a decent variety of powers and a pretty nasty attack.

 

A modest amount of experience would do wonders for him.

[JmOz]

Re: Speedsters:

 

Personaly

 

I usualy build mine with a dex between 27-40

Speeds around 7-10

 

20-40" movement

 

and a Martial Arts package heavy on FMove

[assault]

Re: Speedsters:

 

OK - I'm bored at work. I don't have any of the books but here is a go at a 250 pt speedster. It's just noodling really' date=' and if I had time and the books I could do a better job, but it's a start. [/quote']

 

Not bad. Better than my version in many ways, especially since I OIHIDed mine.

[SSgt Baloo]

Got it!

 

Today, I went to my local A-1 Comix store. I reached into my utility belt and pulled out a small quantity of my secret weapon: Money! I purchased Ultimate Speedster (their last copy) and I even got 20% off because it was their post-Christmas sale. The guy ahead of me paid nearly $700 for some old comics (one of them was priced at $150!!) so my measley (less than) $25 purchase seemed like an even better bargain.

 

After skimming the book, I have to admit that ETSZ sounds like an unbalancing power as written, especially if none of the other players are speedsters. Has anyone allowed it in their game, if only to see just how closely the resulting catastrophe matches the prediction?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Got it!

 

I think ETSZ accurately depicts what a real "Flash" level speedster would act like IRL (if it was possible)

 

He'd be nearly impossible to defeat without area effect attacks and if it was possible for any of his attacks to get through your defenses, you lose.

 

TB

[OddHat]

Re: Speedsters:

 

ETSZ is potentially very unbalancing, just like many other powers and builds. I would not suggest it for GMs who aren't willing to deal with the problems presented by a genuine time stopper. As Steve Long phrased it, it's a "You win the game" power. It's also a really good way to represent the kind of superspeed and time stop effects that have been showing up in science fiction and fantasy since HG Wells came up with The New Accellerator (and probably before). That doesn't mean that GMs are obligated to permit it in a given campaign; however, it is nice to have for those campaigns where it fits.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Speedsters:

 

ETSZ is potentially very unbalancing' date=' just like many other powers and builds. I would not suggest it for GMs who aren't willing to deal with the problems presented by a genuine time stopper. As Steve Long phrased it, it's a "You win the game" power. It's also a really good way to represent the kind of superspeed and time stop effects that have been showing up in science fiction and fantasy since HG Wells came up with [i']The New Accellerator[/i] (and probably before). That doesn't mean that GMs are obligated to permit it in a given campaign; however, it is nice to have for those campaigns where it fits.

 

It wouldn't be too unbalancing if only allowed as an 'Action of Last Resort' ability by way of END costs (no reduced END) and/or enforcing a Side Effect: Drain END after its use.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speedsters:

 

Y'know, it makes me crazy. Many a board person whose opinion I greatly respect (like, say, Killer Shrike) really like TUS, and I own it and I've read it cover to cover and all I get is the cold, sick feeling of games spiralling into the abyss. Has no one broke a game wide open with Enter the Speed Zone yet? It is the most broken thing I have ever seen come packaged with a HERO logo on it.

 

SSgt Baloo, in essence ETSZ is a tweaked version of ExtraDimensional Travel while making it cheap to reach back across the dimensions and thump the slow. It specifically says in the description that it would be cost prohibitive for a character to have to buy Transdimensional for all their powers so, in the most colossal of handwaives, they say speedsters only have to buy the ability to perceive across the dimensional wall between Speed Zone and NormalWorld and then they can feel free to reach out and touch all the 0 DCV slowpokes they want. If I'm somehow missing something about IP protection, this power has been described many times in many threads here.

 

On the bright side, I really, really enjoyed the GM's section and most of the NPC character write-ups. The updated Cheshire Cat and Kinetik were good fun. There's also a weird one that is the Mexican illegitimate offspring of Puck and Batroc, but he made me smile.

 

I don't know. Oddhat says ETSZ can work if you keep a tight rein on character construction and he can make minor dieties on 350 pts without breaking a sweat. Maybe I'm just a moaning old bastard.

 

Actually, I opened the original thread on how broken the Speed Zone is.

 

Thoughts on the Speed Zone

 

On the one hand, the many things the Speed Zone allows a speedster to do that accurately model the source material and are otherwise absurdly expensive and / or complicated to model is fantastic.

 

On the other hand, the ability to attack everyone while they are effectively helpless, potentially many times, is excessively overpowered.

 

My own approach is to provisionally allow it, but to only allow one actual attack against the physical world per SZ Turn.

 

This allows Speedsters w/ the ability to accomplish the flavorful things the Speed Zone allows unrestrictedly, but to not defeat a dozen helpless foes a turn while the rest of the team doesn't even have time to get off a soliloquy.

 

EDIT: Also, in addition to being able to perceive the normal world, Speedsters also need to have Transdimensional for their STR to affect the normal world.

[OzMike]

Re: Speedsters:

 

Not bad. Better than my version in many ways' date=' especially since I OIHIDed mine.[/quote']

 

Thanks. It was just a noodling. If I get time I'll post a 250pt speedster that I played in a Teen Champions game (if I can find the character sheet). Complete with 50 DEX and 8 SPD (Yikes!).

 

Actually rather that OHID I think a lot of speedsters have Requires Skill roll on their powers (Bar the heightened reactions/DEX/SPD and movement).

[assault]

Re: Speedsters:

 

Actually rather that OHID I think a lot of speedsters have Requires Skill roll on their powers (Bar the heightened reactions/DEX/SPD and movement).

 

The OIHID was because I was building a Johnny Quick homage.

 

I like the RSR idea.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speedsters:

 

This allows Speedsters w/ the ability to accomplish the flavorful things the Speed Zone allows unrestrictedly' date=' but to not defeat a dozen helpless foes a turn while the rest of the team doesn't even have time to get off a soliloquy.[/quote']Seems to me this same argument could apply even to faster heroes who can't use the Speed Zone, such as characters with 8+ SPD when most others generally fall in the 4-6 SPD range. The obvious compensation is to enforce genre and not allow markedly faster characters (with or without the Speed Zone) to give or take as much damage as slower characters. If Ms. Speedy only dishes out 8d6 even in the Speed Zone she's going to be hard pressed to whip or even hurt Bad Guy if he has a 35 PD; whereas her teammate SlowPoke, who dishes out 15d6, can still drop Bad Guy.

 

This has worked very well in our campaign, where our team brick is less than half as quick as our fastest PC (SPD 4 vs. SPD 9) but also hits for 50% more damage. Neither character is all-powerful, but both have their uses in a fight.

[assault]

Re: Speedsters:

 

The obvious compensation is to enforce genre and not allow markedly faster characters (with or without the Speed Zone) to give or take as much damage as slower characters.

 

Unfortunately, that only works for a certain subset of the genre.

 

There are, alas, characters that are both superhumanly fast and capable of dealing out massive amounts of damage. Granted, these are generally at the higher point range, but not always.

 

Spiderman is probably a good example. He may not do quite as much damage as, say, the Thing or the Hulk, but he hands out as much or more than a bunch of other characters. He's not a speed zoner, of course, but would be a higher SPD character. (Actually, I don't think that even Marvel's speedsters would really justify using the Speed Zone. It's mostly a DC thing.)

 

Thinking about it, there probably aren't that many characters in the source material that I would really use such a build for. Most of the superspeed bricks don't seem to operate this way very often. Off the top of my head, I can really only think of Ultra Boy, in one of the "5 years after" stories. Power Girl did match the Earth-2 Flash for speed in one of her first appearances, but that was just in movement - and she was the one that ran into a wall!

 

Superman and Captain Marvel seldom bother with such subtleties, even in cases where it would matter.

 

In fact, it really only seems to happen in Flash stories. Johnny Quick - really the only other speedster to have many stories of his own - rarely did stuff that couldn't be modelled with more conventional powers in the handful of cases where I have seen him in action.

 

So basically, ETSZ would be best for Speedster-centred games, I think. And that would allow the villains to try to make allowances for the hero(es) abilities. Read various Flash stories for more details on these attempts...

 

A side issue: I have been thinking recently about "superhero family" situations, where you have a central character and his/her supporting cast. These often effectively end up being superhero teams of a sort. Examples would be: "the Batman family", with Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman, the Huntress and so on regularly teaming up in various combinations. "The Superman family" would be another case, with Superman, Supergirl and various other supporting cast members forming teaming up fairly regularly. Then there is "the Marvel family" and so on.

 

Most of these were pre-COIE, of course, since one of the things COIE did was to eliminate a lot of these supporting characters. But in many cases they reappeared, in one form or another.

 

I'm not sure how playable these would be, since they are usually fairly centred on a single character. Still, it wasn't uncommon for the secondary characters to operate independently of the main character.

 

A borderline case of this, incidentally, was the FF! Early on, at least, it had some elements of being "Reed Richards and his supporting band".

 

Relatively tightly themed groups like this might be a good place for characters with ETSZ. The other characters could have plenty of opportunities to shine when the "I win" power fails.

 

And in some cases, all the team might have ETSZ!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speedsters:

 

Unfortunately, that only works for a certain subset of the genre.

 

There are, alas, characters that are both superhumanly fast and capable of dealing out massive amounts of damage. Granted, these are generally at the higher point range, but not always.

 

Spiderman is probably a good example. He may not do quite as much damage as, say, the Thing or the Hulk, but he hands out as much or more than a bunch of other characters. He's not a speed zoner, of course, but would be a higher SPD character. (Actually, I don't think that even Marvel's speedsters would really justify using the Speed Zone. It's mostly a DC thing.)

Sure, but comic-book characters (as opposed to Champions characters) aren't built with character points or even any notable consistency. They just do whatever the current writer wants. But it's easy for the GM to impose restrictions on character builds in Champions on any unbalancing aspect of a character. It's a basic part of the job of being a GM.

 

In our campaign we use a guideline of SPD + Damage Class <= 20; which has done a pretty good job of keeping the PCs within shouting distance of each other in combat effectiveness. My character Zl'f has been a reasonably powerful but not overwhelming heroine doing 10d6 with SPD 9; she'd be an unbalancing (or would that be unholy?) terror doing 15d6 like her SPD 4 teammate Silhouette. I don't have The Ultimate Speedster yet so I don't know the details of the Speed Zone, but from what I've gathered reading threads discussing it a player character with it in our game would be limited to 5d6 or maybe 6d6 max; which means he'd take down mooks like ten-pins but be almost useless against supervillains. That seems fair to me. I wouldn't enjoy playing a PC like that in a Champions game myself, but if someone wanted to I can't see any fundamental reason to disallow it. (Since I consider Zl'f a fast martial artist and not a speedster, I wouldn't even object that a SPD 12+ character was stepping on her schtick.)

[Vestnik]

Re: Speedsters:

 

Hey Treb, are there any available writeups for the characters in your campaign (save Zl'f herself, whom you;ve posted before)? The campaign seems very well-thought-out.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Speedsters:

 

Seems to me this same argument could apply even to faster heroes who can't use the Speed Zone, such as characters with 8+ SPD when most others generally fall in the 4-6 SPD range. The obvious compensation is to enforce genre and not allow markedly faster characters (with or without the Speed Zone) to give or take as much damage as slower characters. If Ms. Speedy only dishes out 8d6 even in the Speed Zone she's going to be hard pressed to whip or even hurt Bad Guy if he has a 35 PD; whereas her teammate SlowPoke, who dishes out 15d6, can still drop Bad Guy.

 

This has worked very well in our campaign, where our team brick is less than half as quick as our fastest PC (SPD 4 vs. SPD 9) but also hits for 50% more damage. Neither character is all-powerful, but both have their uses in a fight.

 

The SZ is a force multiplier. Applied to an already effective character, that character becomes much more effective. Applied to a largely ineffective character, the end result is much less significant. This is not a useful measurement of the overall potency of the SZ itself.

 

Ive gone on at great length as to why the Speed Zone as a whole cannot be judged balanced or not balanced on the basis of what other abilities a particular specific SZ enabled character has or does not have. I'm not going to repeat those arguments in detail here; the link I provided in my previous post contains most of them.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speedsters:

 

The SZ is a force multiplier. Applied to an already effective character, that character becomes much more effective. Applied to a largely ineffective character, the end result is much less significant. This is not a useful measurement of the overall potency of the SZ itself.

 

Ive gone on at great length as to why the Speed Zone as a whole cannot be judged balanced or not balanced on the basis of what other abilities a particular specific SZ enabled character has or does not have.

This applies to pretty much any unusual Power or Power/Advantage combination. These have to be evaluated on a case by case basis. A Power that is perfectly reasonable for Character A might be dreadfully unbalancing within the campaign for Character B. I would assume the Speed Zone is no different. (Although I haven't read it, I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume it's at least the equivalent of a Stop Sign power.)

[assault]

Re: Speedsters:

 

Sure' date=' but[i'] comic-book[/i] characters (as opposed to Champions characters) aren't built with character points or even any notable consistency. They just do whatever the current writer wants. But it's easy for the GM to impose restrictions on character builds in Champions on any unbalancing aspect of a character. It's a basic part of the job of being a GM.

 

My point was that the high speed/low damage thing wasn't "genre", that is, a characteristic of the source material. In other words, it's a game thing.

 

I have had quite a bit of fun playing fast bricks over the years. A small investment in DEX and SPD (and REC) can really change a character's feel. It's as if there is only 20 points difference between Ben Grimm and Superman. Of course, it can be unbalancing, why is why I've only played a few such characters, but they were great fun. And they were very simple, non-cheesy builds.

[OzMike]

Re: Speedsters:

 

*snip*

 

In our campaign we use a guideline of SPD + Damage Class <= 20; which has done a pretty good job of keeping the PCs within shouting distance of each other in combat effectiveness. My character Zl'f has been a reasonably powerful but not overwhelming heroine doing 10d6 with SPD 9; she'd be an unbalancing (or would that be unholy?) terror doing 15d6 like her SPD 4 teammate Silhouette. *snip*

 

I had a rule of x something like that, but I think it was SPD + Damage Class + Best OCV <= 30.

 

And I think the defensive x was Total active points in defenses(including base PD and ED)/5 + SPD + Best Non-Dodge DCV <= 30.

 

Made for some interesting characters and simulated the source material pretty well. Varied from a 100 STR, 15 DEX, 3 SPD, 2 combat levels Brick to a 35 DEX, 9 SPD, 9D6 max damage speedster.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speedsters:

 

My point was that the high speed/low damage thing wasn't "genre", that is, a characteristic of the source material. In other words, it's a game thing.

 

I have had quite a bit of fun playing fast bricks over the years. A small investment in DEX and SPD (and REC) can really change a character's feel. It's as if there is only 20 points difference between Ben Grimm and Superman. Of course, it can be unbalancing, why is why I've only played a few such characters, but they were great fun. And they were very simple, non-cheesy builds.

It's a good point: Champions is a game, not a comic book. The players in that game have a reasonable expectation that their characters will be, within reasonable limits, as effective as the next guy's. That's the whole point of a point-based system as opposed to a purely narrative one like comics or movies. To use your examples, Superman is both stronger and faster than the Thing. But neither of them is a character in a Champions campaign, so we wouldn't expect them to be.

 

No, high speed/low damage isn't canonical for the comics. But it's a reasonable restriction for a game. I should point out that (say) 8d6 is "low" only in the rarified atmosphere of a superhero game; capable of killing a normal human being or breaking through a cinder-block wall with one hit.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speedsters:

 

I had a rule of x something like that' date=' but I think it was [i']SPD + Damage Class + Best OCV <= 30.

 

[/i]And I think the defensive x was Total active points in defenses(including base PD and ED)/5 + SPD + Best Non-Dodge DCV <= 30.

 

Made for some interesting characters and simulated the source material pretty well. Varied from a 100 STR, 15 DEX, 3 SPD, 2 combat levels Brick to a 35 DEX, 9 SPD, 9D6 max damage speedster.

We looked at other formulas, but ultimately decided to keep the simpler one. After all, the real measure of character balance is in game play and can't be accurately predicted by any formula no matter how detailed or complex. That's why ours is only a guideline and not a hard-and-fast rule. It just gives players a ballpark to aim for; the GMs will collectively decide if it goes over the plate or strikes out. (I think I've nearly stretched the baseball metaphor past common decency here.)

[OzMike]

Re: Speedsters:

 

We looked at other formulas' date=' but ultimately decided to keep the simpler one. After all, the real measure of character balance is in game play and can't be accurately predicted by any formula no matter how detailed or complex. That's why ours is only a guideline and not a hard-and-fast rule. It just gives players a ballpark to aim for; the GMs will collectively decide if it goes over the plate or strikes out. (I think I've nearly stretched the baseball metaphor past common decency here.) [/quote']

 

Even though mine were labelled rules they were pretty much just guidelines (like everything in HERO), plus it gave the PCs a starting point.

 

It also turned into a way of rating villains and the PCs started to develop their own database using it, as well as buying a 'detect rule of x' gadget. They never got specifics on powers, just 'power level'. It was fun.

[casualplayer]

Re: Speedsters:

 

So avoiding the whole "Of course I have a +6d6 HA Hyperspeed punch to go with my ETSZ" there are many ways Speed Zone guys with deceptively low damage potential can crack Durak's skull wide open.

 

Find Weakness (might as well throw another Stopsign power into the mix)

Haymaker (not much of a penalty to someone who's about to go 7 times in a row)

Levels in Damage Class (don't need them to hit, target is 0 DCV)

 

Actually the best way I have found to deal with ETSZ is Damage Shield or Triggered damage that punishes the buzzing gnats just like a bug zapper. A somewhat chintzy way to deal with a chintzy power is to Suppress the speedster's ability to perceive outside of the Speed Zone or buy Invisibility to Speed Zone vision.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Speedsters:

 

So avoiding the whole "Of course I have a +6d6 HA Hyperspeed punch to go with my ETSZ" there are many ways Speed Zone guys with deceptively low damage potential can crack Durak's skull wide open.

 

Find Weakness (might as well throw another Stopsign power into the mix)

Haymaker (not much of a penalty to someone who's about to go 7 times in a row)

Levels in Damage Class (don't need them to hit, target is 0 DCV)

 

Actually the best way I have found to deal with ETSZ is Damage Shield or Triggered damage that punishes the buzzing gnats just like a bug zapper. A somewhat chintzy way to deal with a chintzy power is to Suppress the speedster's ability to perceive outside of the Speed Zone or buy Invisibility to Speed Zone vision.

Oooh, these are some very nice ideas, some of which aren't that far outside of genre for disabling a Flash speedster.

 

I like them.

 

TB