The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

[Tornado]

For this to work, you need thirteen satellite characters who do nothing but Aid. These can be vehicles, followers, summons or possibly even computers. What's important to note is that these characters boost eachother's aids in sequence to create an end effect of a significant bonus. The system has a tiny bit of trouble getting started due to speed differences and aid degradation, but once it's going it seems to work.

Secondary Aid 1: 1d6+4 points max roll, Standard Effect (-0)

Secondary Aid 2: 1d6+4 points max roll, Standard Effect (-0)

Secondary Aid 3: 1d6+4 points max roll, Standard Effect (-0)

Secondary Aid 4: 1d6+4 points max roll, Standard Effect (-0)

Primary Aid 1: 1d6+8 points max roll, Standard Effect (-0)

Primary Aid 2: 1d6+8 points max roll, Standard Effect (-0)

Primary Aid 3: 1d6+8 points max roll, Standard Effect (-0)

Primary Aid 4: 1d6+8 points max roll, Standard Effect (-0)

 

Ultimate Aid 1: 1d6+8 points max rolls, Add Adders (+1), Standard Effect (-0)

Ultimate Aid 2: 1d6+8 points max rolls, Add Adders (+1), Standard Effect (-0)

Ultimate Aid 3: 1d6+8 points max rolls, Add Adders (+1), Standard Effect (-0)

 

Bonus Aid: 1d6, Autofire 2 shots (+1 1/4) Standard Effect (-0)

 

Primary Aid: 8 (4 if you can't go beyond 12)

Secondary Aid: 8 (4 if you can't go beyond 12)

Ultimate Aid: 24 (12 if you can't go beyond 12)

Bonus Aid: Any Speed

 

All except bonus aid aid other aids. Bonus Aid aids UberPower

Pattern:

• Secondary Aids aid each primary aid in turn

• Primary Aids aid each ultimate aid in turn

• Ultimate Aids add to the primary and secondary aids in pairs, then to eachother ultimate aids.

 

Once you want to use your UberPower (whatever it is), just order them to send to Bonus Aid and have it power up your UberPower to unreasonable levels.

 

Calculate:

A 1d6+4 bonus each turn allows Secondary Aids to add up to 3 points each dice, up to 10 points total, equivelant to a 1d6 bonus to Primaries

A 2d6+8 bonus each turn allows Primary Aids to add up to 6 points each dice, up to 20 points total, equivelant to a 1d6 bonus to Ultimates

A 2d6+8 bonus each turn allows Ultimate Aids to add up to 6 points each dice, 14 points total, equivelant to a 1d6 and +4 point max bonus to secondaries, +28 point max bonus to primaries and +14 point max bonus to ultimates bonus. Admittedly, the latter two bonuses easily go beyond what’s required, but that doesn’t bring the system down.

[keithcurtis]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

Other than an interesting power construct (I don't know; I didn't parse it), is it actually modeling something?

Doing something "just because you can" has left the path of wisdom.

 

Keith "Or something like that. I'm stoned on Nyquil" Curtis

[That Masked Man]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

Other than an interesting power construct (I don't know; I didn't parse it), is it actually modeling something?

Doing something "just because you can" has left the path of wisdom.

 

Keith "Or something like that. I'm stoned on Nyquil" Curtis

 

I always enjoyed exploring the limits of the system, stretching it until it breaks. Of course I would never try to PLAY a character designed like that, but sometimes creating such a construct is enjoyable in itself.

[Ternaugh]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

What we have here is a feedback loop. It isn't really interesting, since, in effect, the construct must define the Aid as aiding Aid. Breaking out of the loop isn't technically possible as written, without changing what the Aid aids. Oh, and it isn't necessary to use multiple characters; if a gm allowed this constuct, it could conceivably Aid itself. Forever.

 

Now, if you defined it as Aid to Aid and another power(using a +1/2 Variable Effect), then we'd be able to pump up the other power, along with the Aid.

 

It's book-legal, but I wouldn't allow it, or any other feedback loop method in one of my games.

 

JoeG

[Lucius]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

"Does it work?" is a seperate question from "Should it be allowed to work?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that our question is "What does it do, again?"

[Zed-F]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

"Does it work?" is a seperate question from "Should it be allowed to work?"

And that is also a separate question from 'would I allow it in a game?'

 

Does it work? I didn't check.

 

Should it be allowed to work? Maybe. It might be useful as some kind of ritual magic, perhaps with some modifications. Probably for an NPC -- but then I could just handwave.

 

Would I allow a player to use it in a game? Unlikely at best.

[Tornado]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

What we have here is a feedback loop. It isn't really interesting, since, in effect, the construct must define the Aid as aiding Aid. Breaking out of the loop isn't technically possible as written, without changing what the Aid aids. Oh, and it isn't necessary to use multiple characters; if a gm allowed this constuct, it could conceivably Aid itself. Forever.

 

Now, if you defined it as Aid to Aid and another power(using a +1/2 Variable Effect), then we'd be able to pump up the other power, along with the Aid.

Actually, the aids aid aids, except for bonus aid, which you boost once you have a large enough aid pool. Then bonus aid boosts whatever power you have it hotwired to.

[Jhamin]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

Should it be allowed to work? Maybe. It might be useful as some kind of ritual magic' date=' perhaps with some modifications. Probably for an NPC -- but then I could just handwave.[/quote']

 

The old 4th edition Mystic Masters book had a writup in this spirit for an "ultimate nullifier/anti-life equation" type gizmo. It was about the only thing Tyrranon was afraid of.

 

It was bought as a Transdimensional AofE Transfer that drained the Universe's body score into itself, thus upping the speed of the drain and the amount drained.

 

It would start out obliterating a small area, and eventually would consume planets, then solar systems, then galaxies, and so on.

I believe that the 4th edition version required a hefty amount of GM permission (especially the part about a Transfer boosting it's own points), but the theory was pretty much the same.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

This might be a good power for some of those anime powers that seem to require a huge buildup before being fired off...

[Ternaugh]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

This might be a good power for some of those anime powers that seem to require a huge buildup before being fired off...

 

A simpler way to model a power buildup period would use Extra Time on the full power. Let the special effects sort out the shiny bits.

 

JoeG

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

A simpler way to model a power buildup period would use Extra Time on the full power. Let the special effects sort out the shiny bits.

 

JoeG

 

Yeah, you're right. This Aid of Aid of Aid ends up rolling a hell of a lot of dice.

[Hoovdog]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

Yeah' date=' you're right. This Aid of Aid of Aid ends up rolling a hell of a lot of dice.[/quote']

 

But that could be what you want if your going to build up for an attack and you have to have X energy or whatever then if theres a degrea of chance you dont know how long it will take then you can realase it when your ready. Intresting theory.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

Won't work as writ with the rules on adjustment powers as we are supposed to play them - each use of each power fades a 5 points per turn; the fade becomes monstrous. 80 points of fade per turn. You need bigger aids or increaded fade time.

[Robyn]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

Yeah' date=' you're right. This Aid of Aid of Aid ends up rolling a hell of a lot of dice.[/quote']

 

If you wanted to destroy the Universe, it would take so long to tally up the dice that you would be better off sitting around and waiting for entropy to set in?

 

The palindromedary notes that our question is "What does it do' date=' again?"[/quote']

 

I'll second this one . . . I need a longer, more step-by-step explanation of what's going on.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

I think the IDEA is that Aids (as powers) build up a total amount of power in a "perpetual motion machine." In other words, the AIDs are constantly being fired in a sequence, creating a pool of AID, if you will. This pool can then be shifted off to wherever.

 

Under my rules, it'll never work. I'll tell you why. Because under my HR, no one can be receive AID beyond the max dice on the highest power used. So if both Robyn and the Palindromedary fire off an AID to STR on me (the brick), and Robyn bought it at 1d6+3, and the Palindromedary has it at 3d6, the most points I can receive are the Palindromedary's 18, and even then, only if he achieves a higher effect than Robyn's 4-9; Robyn rolls well, and I get a 9 point AID.

 

The Palindromedary rolls POORLY, and gets an 8; both AID powers are now operating simulataneously. Yes. I have both. If Robyn's Aid FADES, the Palindromedary's may still be active. But I can still not ever be AIDED beyond the max amount of the highest die power. Regardless. So if I grasp the concept properly (a giant pool of unassigned AID) then it wouldn't work, since the most anyone could receive is the 1d6+8.

 

But it's 11:18, I've been in services all weekend, so I may be a little punchy, but that's what I got from it, and my take on it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

I think the IDEA is that Aids (as powers) build up a total amount of power in a "perpetual motion machine." In other words, the AIDs are constantly being fired in a sequence, creating a pool of AID, if you will. This pool can then be shifted off to wherever.

 

Under my rules, it'll never work. I'll tell you why. Because under my HR, no one can be receive AID beyond the max dice on the highest power used. So if both Robyn and the Palindromedary fire off an AID to STR on me (the brick), and Robyn bought it at 1d6+3, and the Palindromedary has it at 3d6, the most points I can receive are the Palindromedary's 18, and even then, only if he achieves a higher effect than Robyn's 4-9; Robyn rolls well, and I get a 9 point AID.

 

The Palindromedary rolls POORLY, and gets an 8; both AID powers are now operating simulataneously. Yes. I have both. If Robyn's Aid FADES, the Palindromedary's may still be active. But I can still not ever be AIDED beyond the max amount of the highest die power. Regardless. So if I grasp the concept properly (a giant pool of unassigned AID) then it wouldn't work, since the most anyone could receive is the 1d6+8.

 

But it's 11:18, I've been in services all weekend, so I may be a little punchy, but that's what I got from it, and my take on it.

 

I very much like this house rule. I like it so much that I'm not so certian it's a house rule. I wasn't aware you could have two Aids simultaneously and cumulatively increase the Active Points in a Power. I thought it always went with the higher of the two rolls, but if one stopped, and the other didn't, it went with whatever was left. Or is that just Healing?

[TaxiMan]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

Bah. Thermodynamics has ruled this out, even theoretically. No need to examine it in detail, it can't work.

[Robyn]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

Bah. Thermodynamics has ruled this out' date=' even theoretically.[/quote']

 

The so-called "laws of physics" have ruled out many of the so-called "superpowers", even theoretically

 

You were saying?

[Markdoc]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

Horror of horrors, not only will it work (with a little tweaking) I have even used it in my game!

 

There is one catch - there is an upper limit: at some point, you'll run up against the fade rate, which as pointed out gets to be big. Nonetheless, you can amp powers up significantly like this. That limitation can be reduced if you have a horde of helpers casting their aids in a cascade, so that you can get a couple of dozen Aids before the first fade sets in

 

As to *why* I've allowed it - in my fantasy game, this approach fits nicely for ritual magic - a mage can cast a powerful spell without having to spend beaucoup points. Yes, you could do the same thing with the various ritual and assistant limitations, but I like this method better (or more accurately, as wel). You don't have to allow the mage a 200 active point spell - that's especially good when you figure power frameworks into the equation. It also explains why mages take on apprentices in the first place.

 

It's never proved abusive, since to use it you need a lot of people standing around doing nothing but aid and you have to wait to use it, so you're not attacking every phase - in fact that's how my Dymerian battle mages work: each one has 19 apprentices who pump them up so they can let fly with army-frying magics. They tend not to have many spells though, because of all the points spent on having a huge magic skill so they can actually cast the spell safely - if you're casting an 8d6 RKA area effect radius, you don't want it accidentally going off a meter from the end of your finger tip.... Dymerian battles tend to be the big mages slugging it out with each other - big offence versus big defence, while "commando teams" try and take out the other guy's mages. It's a very player-character friendly set up and explains why otherwise rational rulers allow heavily-armed loonies to run about in their domain: come the war, you can draft them

 

At the other end of the scale, I have allowed it for player characters to simulate characters who can pump up their abilities given time, to allow mages who are both flexible and potentially powerful - but not particularly combat-useful - the rules for that are here:

http://fitz.jsr.com/roleplay/hero/fantasy/hq/index.html

(They're my rules, but Fitz has formatted them much more nicely than I did )

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

It's a very player-character friendly set up and explains why otherwise rational rulers allow heavily-armed loonies to run about in their domain: come the war, you can draft them

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

I would have repped this but I seem to have repped you too recently....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary loves that quote..."Why otherwise rational rulers allow heavily-armed loonies to run about in their domain: come the war, you can draft them."

[JackValhalla]

Re: The Perpetual Motion Machine - Does It Work?

 

Well, let me contribute, if I may, a much much simpler model.

 

Start with a VPP. Say, 30 pts Cosmic. Now we've invested 75 pts into this.

Second, an Aid to the VPP. Make it 0 END, and ideally it should have its return time extended.. say, to a month. IIRC, that's a +2 Advantage, but it would be a lot of trouble for me to verify that right now. If I'm wrong, fiddle it a little. Self only, natch, add other limitations such as gestures and incantations to taste. Make sure it can affect the pool and it's control cost, you decide between concurrent or consecutive. Make it around 1d6 with +2 effect, and you should come in well under 20 points.

Aid the VPP. Turn the VPP into an Aid on the original Aid's adder. Since there is already an adder present, we won't need an advantage to represent that. Keep increasing the original Aid's adder, and you may well want the "virtual" Aid to have an increased-effect adder as well. Put this through twenty or thirty revolutions and then go spank Grond.

It may be wise, once your VPP is really big, to go ahead and create an Aid with extended return time, so that your original Aid comes up to 15d6 or so. That way, your recycler doesn't have to start from scratch when it's time to reboost his VPP.

Work it on paper, if you like, assuming the standard effect rule. Show your work and carry the one. Then whip up a hero built on a hundred points that can CON-stun Dr. Destroyer, once he's had a few hours to prepare himself.