Help me finish a character?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

No' date=' they don't. The power 'Extra Limbs' (which I'd like to point out is [b']not[/b] part of the EC pool) is not derived from my Endurance Reserve. It, in fact, costs no endurance, and I can use them quite normally. The strength bonus in the EC applies only to my extra limbs, but that doesn't mean my normal strength bonus doesn't. I really don't know where you're getting this argument from, but it's definitely not the rules.

 

Extra limbs does not cost END to use' date=' but the additional limbs are visible, and the charactger must pay the normal END cost when using Strength with an Extra limb.[/quote']

 

IOW, use of your base 20 STR with an extra limb costs END. Use of your extra STR also costs END. You mentioned the entire EC runs from the END reserve. With that in mind, your base STR pulls your character's END, while the +30 pulls from the reserve. To me, having some STR drawn from the character's normal END and some from the reserve makes no sense. Your, and your GM's, views may well differ.

 

While endurance reserve does use things like 'independent source' a lot in its examples' date=' it does not have to be. People have used powers in unconventional ways before. Focus/Independent is not an inherent limitation of this power. I would actually be saving points if I were doing this concept any other way, so I don't think I should be penalized, it's as simple as that. To say that Dr. Technology can get an endurance reserve for all his powers but the mutant, who was built almost statistically the same, is out of luck, is nonsense to me.[/quote']

 

A character with Endurance Reserve has an independent source of Endurance that that provides END to run powers.

 

So yes, it does need to be an "independent source" - that's the definition of the power. It need not be a focus, nor does it need the Independent limitation.

 

It really doesn't matter because even in that scenario' date=' I have enough endurance and enough recovery in my reserve.[/quote']

 

Actually, what really keeps you going for END, if I read it accurately, is that you have a speed of 2. That's pretty slow in most heroic games, though it may be the norm in the one you're playing. You should also note that, if the character is Stunned, his active powers will also deactivate, requiring you to turn them on again.

 

Yes' date=' but I was using the Fuel option and having the fuel be electricity.[/quote']

 

It doesn't matter what the fuel is. A fuel charge allows you to turn a continuing power on and off, using it for a total of 24 hours rather than 24 hours which must continue once the charge is started. Dispel would run you out of charge immediately.

 

BTW, I think I found the issue with capping the advantage at +0, but this only applies to powers that normally don't cost END. I agree with your +1/2 calculation. 0 END would cost the same, but the fuel charge should keep running even if you're KO'd, unlike a nonpersistent 0 END power, so there are some differences that make this approach one to consider.

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

IOW' date=' use of your base 20 STR with an extra limb costs END. Use of your extra STR also costs END. You mentioned the entire EC runs from the END reserve. With that in mind, your base STR pulls your character's END, while the +30 pulls from the reserve. To me, having some STR drawn from the character's normal END and some from the reserve makes no sense. Your, and your GM's, views may well differ.[/quote']

I don't see what's odd about it. It's a sort of adrenaline, hospitals inject their patients with adrenaline right into their heart sometimes. Think of it like that, doing it automatically to perform feats of strength and reflex, except it skips the heart and goes straight to the source, as not to damage the heart.

 

So yes, it does need to be an "independent source" - that's the definition of the power. It need not be a focus, nor does it need the Independent limitation.

It is an independent source. It's just not something you can apply either limitation to, because it's surgically implanted, an artificial organ.

 

Actually, what really keeps you going for END, if I read it accurately, is that you have a speed of 2. That's pretty slow in most heroic games, though it may be the norm in the one you're playing. You should also note that, if the character is Stunned, his active powers will also deactivate, requiring you to turn them on again.

I wasn't aware 'standard' was slow in a 75 pont game, seeing as most things you have are going to be standard. And, again, I will have enough endurance in my reserve to cover for that. You need not worry.

 

It doesn't matter what the fuel is. A fuel charge allows you to turn a continuing power on and off, using it for a total of 24 hours rather than 24 hours which must continue once the charge is started. Dispel would run you out of charge immediately.

What's this talk about dispel and such all of a sudden? I was just talking about doing it for a piece of equipment because it makes more sense.

 

BTW, I think I found the issue with capping the advantage at +0, but this only applies to powers that normally don't cost END. I agree with your +1/2 calculation. 0 END would cost the same, but the fuel charge should keep running even if you're KO'd, unlike a nonpersistent 0 END power, so there are some differences that make this approach one to consider.

...okay, are you going to tell me what the issue you found is (like maybe a page number or something), or am I going to be in the dark again? I'm really feeling like I'm getting more criticisms than answers at this point, I've asked plenty of questions and very few were answered.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

I don't see what's odd about it. It's a sort of adrenaline' date=' hospitals inject their patients with adrenaline right into their heart sometimes. Think of it like that, doing it automatically to perform feats of strength and reflex, except it skips the heart and goes straight to the source, as not to damage the heart.[/quote']

 

So why does that provide extra END to your extra limbs (which alos draw END for your base 20 STR from your personal END) but not provide END to your normal arms or legs (running)? An adrenaline rush seems more like an Aid or Heal to END than a separate reserve, but that's just my take on it, without a lot of the backstory on how the character's powers work.

 

It is an independent source. It's just not something you can apply either limitation to' date=' because it's surgically implanted, an artificial organ.[/quote']

 

It doesn't need a limitation to be capable of being dispelled, suppressed, drained, etc. Your normal END is subject to suppress and drain as well, BTW.

 

I wasn't aware 'standard' was slow in a 75 pont game' date=' seeing as most things you have are going to be standard. And, again, I will have enough endurance in my reserve to cover for that. You need not worry.[/quote']

 

My general experience is that characters (PC's and "named" NPC's, as opposed to NPC mooks) in most heroic games tend to SPD 3 or 4. Again, I don't know the particulars of your GM's game - a 2 SPD may well be the norm for PC's and significant NPC's. It would be nice to have the campaign guidelines within which your character is being designed.

 

What's this talk about dispel and such all of a sudden? I was just talking about doing it for a piece of equipment because it makes more sense.

 

Dispel is the power typically used to break equipment, or discharge all its energy so it needs to be recharged.

 

...okay' date=' are you going to tell me what the issue you found is (like maybe a page number or something), or am I going to be in the dark again? I'm really feeling like I'm getting more criticisms than answers at this point, I've asked plenty of questions and very few were answered.[/quote']

 

Given you were using fuiel charges, referencing the page the Charges limitation, fuel charges specifically, is located on didn't seem necessary (and I'm back where I don't have my books). Hero Designer is not correct on this one. The rules indicate a fuel charge caps at +0 if the underlying power would normally cost no END. Your force field would normally cost END, so the +1/2 advantage you're computing looks right to me.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

I'm getting what Daeger is going for with his ENd Battery, An energy source that just fuels his extra limbs - It makes just as much sense as anything else in a comic book universe, so .. cool.

 

I do agree with Hugh on bumping your speed to 3 - I'd just define it as your Adrenaline Pump, where you walk around at speed 2, but when combat begins you can hit that higher gear and really move.. No limitations, sort of a special effect sort of thing.. Or buy it with 4 charges lasting 5 minutes, or something.. 2 speed isn't "normal" even in a Normals only game - 3 is generally accepted as the norm for a 75 +75 game. But if it works fluffwise for him to be kinda slow (and really dangerous), cool..

 

Now, as far as equipment goes, consider a "team radio" so the Hero's can co-ordinate their actions at range.. Or Flash Defense Sunglasses, allways a popular selection "Hey man - NEVER touch the shades!"

 

You going to post the character here?

 

-CraterMaker

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

So why does that provide extra END to your extra limbs (which alos draw END for your base 20 STR from your personal END) but not provide END to your normal arms or legs (running)?

Because that is what it designed to do.

 

It doesn't need a limitation to be capable of being dispelled, suppressed, drained, etc. Your normal END is subject to suppress and drain as well, BTW.

Then.. where's the problem you find with it?

 

My general experience is that characters (PC's and "named" NPC's, as opposed to NPC mooks) in most heroic games tend to SPD 3 or 4. Again, I don't know the particulars of your GM's game - a 2 SPD may well be the norm for PC's and significant NPC's. It would be nice to have the campaign guidelines within which your character is being designed.

In a 75-point heroic game..? There's not exactly an abundance of points to do such things.

 

Dispel is the power typically used to break equipment, or discharge all its energy so it needs to be recharged.

I know that.

 

Given you were using fuiel charges, referencing the page the Charges limitation, fuel charges specifically, is located on didn't seem necessary (and I'm back where I don't have my books). Hero Designer is not correct on this one. The rules indicate a fuel charge caps at +0 if the underlying power would normally cost no END. Your force field would normally cost END, so the +1/2 advantage you're computing looks right to me.

It changed back to +1/2 after I added powers to the Multipower, so it seems that was the issue.

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

I do agree with Hugh on bumping your speed to 3 - I'd just define it as your Adrenaline Pump' date=' where you walk around at speed 2, but when combat begins you can hit that higher gear and really move.. No limitations, sort of a special effect sort of thing.. Or buy it with 4 charges lasting 5 minutes, or something.. 2 speed isn't "normal" even in a Normals only game - 3 is generally accepted as the norm for a 75 +75 game. But if it works fluffwise for him to be kinda slow (and really dangerous), cool..[/quote']

I don't think the charges thing is going to work, 4 charges for 5 minutes is pretty much +0 (or more). I'll try to buy it up, but it just doesn't look very affordable. Not only would I have to pay 10 for the speed, but I'd have to make my reserve bigger in order to compensate acting in more phases in a single round.

 

Now, as far as equipment goes, consider a "team radio" so the Hero's can co-ordinate their actions at range.. Or Flash Defense Sunglasses, allways a popular selection "Hey man - NEVER touch the shades!"

Well, this is a Star Hero game, not a superheroic game, so we can just buy a team radio. I'll see if I can post the character here when I'm done.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

I dunno' date=' that would be giving a force field generator infinite power.. I mean, come on, if you had a tiny battery capable of infinite power, would you stick it in 10PD/10ED force field belt?[/quote']

 

If all that type of energy was able to do was power a 10/10 FF, then it would be useless elsewhere. If it could be used elsewhere, but you were getting shot at by a bunch of guys with sub-machine guns, the FF still sounds like a good idea.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

Then.. where's the problem you find with it?

 

This dates back to my initial comment that, as GM, I would likely want to see the END battery cause an issue of concern for the character at some time during the campaign. If you can get around END using an END battery for less cost than making your abilities 0 END, there should be a down side to compensate for this.

 

Again, your GM may be OK with it. Just forcing you to power down the "costs END only to activate" powers every so often will do the trick just as well, or he may be OK with it as a limiting factor on the character's ability to increase SPD later.

 

In a 75-point heroic game..? There's not exactly an abundance of points to do such things.

 

First off, as I said, I'd check with your GM on the campaign norm. If you find everyone else has a 4 SPD once you start playing, how happy will you be? All my, and anyone else's, advice is shooting in the dark to some extent as we don't know the context in which this character will be operating. Unless I'm misrecalling, you have spent no points on DEX, SPD or combat levels. With that in mind, you will have a 3 OCV, 3 DCV and 2 SPD. In most 75+75 point games, that's a character who will have trouble hitting, be an easy target and move pretty slow. he also spent little, if anything, on defenses (other than the force field belt near the end), so a hit will definitely hurt him.

 

In a typical 75 + 75 game, 3 or 4 SPD PC's are the norm However, you don't see a lot of characters with elemental controls and 50 STR (limited or otherwise) in the typical 75 + 75 game. Given your comments on a character with a 9d6 killing attack (135 AP), this doesn't look like a typical 75 + 75 game in any case. Without some benchmark to evaluate it against, I have no idea whether your character will be slower than the norm, better or worse defended or have higher or lower attack powers.

 

As an example, let's assume your character is in combat with a character who has a 15 DEX, 3 Speed and an 8d6 attack. We'll call him Norm. If I'm picturing your stats correctly, it goes something like this:

 

(a) Norm gets the first move, as he has a higher DEX.

 

( Norm attacks. He has an OCV 5 to hit your DCV 3, so he's over 80% likely to connect.

 

© Assuming Norm hits, he averages 28 Stun and 8 BOD. With defenses of 14 (using your base PD from 20 STR and your 10 force field belt), he inflicts 14 Stun and no BOD.

 

(d) Unless your CON is 14+ (I didn't see any points there), you're stunned. You'll use your action on Ph 12 to recover from being stunned.

 

NOTE: Your Clinging doesn't helpm as you haven't had the opportunity to activate it and, if you did, you were Stunned so it shut off. Missile Deflection, if active, would need a 9- to deflect his ranged attack (your OCV vs his), which is a 37.5% chance, but means your phase was used to missile deflect.

 

(e) Each character gets a Post segment 12 recovery.

 

(f) Norm moves in phase 4, and probably Stuns you again.

 

(g) You recover in Phase 6.

 

(h) Norm hits in phase 8 - stunned again.

 

(i) Norm moves in Phase 12 and likely KO's you if you weren't already KO'd (I think the Phase 8 hit should have done it, since you've taken 3 hits for 14 Stun each, after defenses, with only one recovery.

 

Now the question is "Is Norm the norm for your opposition"? A 5 OCV/DCV, 3 SPD character with an 8d6 attack is typical of 75 + 75 games I've seen, but I don't know what's typical in your GM's game.

 

So I'll ask one more time: have you asked the GM, or any of the other players, what the typical attacks, defenses, SPD, combat values, etc. are in this game so you have some basis for assessing whether your character is substandard, average or above the norm in each area?

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

Uhhm, actually my defenses are excellent. I went with someone's advice to have Ablative armor, and combined with my shield belt I'll have 30 resistant PD and ED. I also still have some points to toss around if you have any advice on low-cost investments. I came here looking for advice, remember? Not constant critcism.

 

Also, I really don't know the typical stuff about the other two PC's except they've got a lot of skills, and my GM tells me they need a melee specialist and someone to take some hits. So, there you go.

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

I suppose I should lay down all the powers I have so far. This excludes my 10PD/10ED force field belt (note that it only stops high speed projectiles and energy beams so I can do melee, based off the personal forcefield in Star Hero).

 

[10] Extra Limbs: Elemental Control, 30-point powers, (15 Active Points); all slots Restrainable (-1/2)

[10] 1) Leaping +30" (+40" forward, 20" upward) (30 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2)

[09] 2) +30 STR, Costs END Only to Activate (+1/4) (30 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Only with Extra Limbs (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2)

[08] 3) Stretching 6" (30 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Body Parts (-1/4)

[08] 4) Clinging (81 STR), Damage Shield (+1/2) (30 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to activate; -1/4)

[08] 5) Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Adjacent Hex (+1/2) (30 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4)

(Total EC Cost: 53 points.)

---

[15] Endurance Reserve (30 END, 15 REC), (Inherent +1/4) (22 Active Points); Personal REC (-1/2)

[30] Armor (20 PD/20 ED) (60 Active Points); Ablative BODY or STUN (-1)

[5] Extra Limbs, Inherent (+1/4) (6 Active Points); Always On (-1/4)

(Total Powers Cost: 103 points.)

 

That, and a 20 Strength, gives me 37 points left to work with. I was thinking of Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Attack with a Weapon Familiarity in Off Hand, and then, well, I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking +OCV in sweep attacks or something.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

What do the rules say about adding the same power more than once to a character' date=' or more than once in a multipower? Say I was building a multipower, I wanted an armor for PD and an armor for ED.[/quote']

I don't think anyone else covered this, so...

 

If you are actually referring to an EC rather than a Multipower, buying PD only Armor in one slot and ED only Armor in a second slot is technically legal (barring the rule against inherently 0 END Powers in an EC), but highly munchkiny, rules abusive and generally bad form as far as character design is concerned.

 

If you are referring to an actual Multipower, it is only slightly less munchkiny. Personally, I'd allow it, especially if the slots are fixed (ultra), as you can only have one def or the other and never both at the same time.

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

I don't think anyone else covered this, so...

 

If you are actually referring to an EC rather than a Multipower, buying PD only Armor in one slot and ED only Armor in a second slot is technically legal (barring the rule against inherently 0 END Powers in an EC), but highly munchkiny, rules abusive and generally bad form as far as character design is concerned.

 

If you are referring to an actual Multipower, it is only slightly less munchkiny. Personally, I'd allow it, especially if the slots are fixed (ultra), as you can only have one def or the other and never both at the same time.

Alright, thanks for the info. Right now my armor power isn't in a framework, I was considering my options.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

I came here looking for advice' date=' remember? Not constant critcism.[/quote']

 

That line is extremely burry my friend.

[Debra Winger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

Constant Criticism: Drain INT 4d6, Ranged (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (100 Active Points)

[CraterMaker]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

Constant Criticism: Drain INT 4d6' date=' Ranged (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (100 Active Points)[/quote']

>chuckle<

 

I was thinking along the same lines, Ms Winger..

 

-CraterMaker

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

Dust Raven told me that unarmed combat doesn't incur any offhand penalties in combat, so investing in ambidexterity and TWF is a waste of points.

 

And yes, I realize I may have not expressed it well, but I want to do unarmed combat. I wonder though, do I still get the +1 DCV for having Weapon Familiarity: Offhand?

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

I have a question regarding another thing in Hero Designer. Namely, Healing having a +½d6 option for 5 points. I could not find any material supporting this in the main book - where is it from?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

That' date=' and a 20 Strength, gives me 37 points left to work with. I was thinking of Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Attack with a Weapon Familiarity in Off Hand, and then, well, I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking +OCV in sweep attacks or something.[/quote']

 

You should note that any attack which inflicts more than 20 STUN will reduce the activation roll (ir I recall the limitation correctly) on your ablative armor. When the activation roll fails, none of the armor activates. You'll be fairly well defended, but only for short periods of time assuming typical opponents can match the 10+ DC's characters in your group seem able to dish out.

 

Unless the campaign norm is that everyone has a 10 DEX, which would be rare, you're going to be very easy to hit, and you may find your opponents hard to hit. You currently have combat values of 3.

 

I'll reiterate that assessing the character in a vacuum is impractical. If the campaign norm is an 18-20 DEX/CV 6-7, your typical opponent will hit you on a 14- or 15- (almost always) and you'll hit on a 6- or 7- (not very common). If the camoaign norm is 10 DEX, you hit and are hit on 11-. I would get this information before finalizing your character, or you may well find you are ineffectual.

 

With a 10 CON, you'll be pretty easy to Stun, although your defenses will mitigate this as long as it holds up. PRE and EGO 10 makes you pretty easy to surprise/scare to get a drop on you. I suspect SPD 2 will leave you pretty slow, but again this depends on group norms.

 

Consideration of some skills so your character can accomplish something outsude combat should also be considered, although your background pretty much sets the character up to be a combat machine with no other purpose.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

Dust Raven told me that unarmed combat doesn't incur any offhand penalties in combat, so investing in ambidexterity and TWF is a waste of points.

 

And yes, I realize I may have not expressed it well, but I want to do unarmed combat. I wonder though, do I still get the +1 DCV for having Weapon Familiarity: Offhand?

Daeger is referring to an IM discussion we had the other day here. Could someone either confirm or refute my possition here? Also, I'd also like to know what the deal is with WF: Off Hand. Personally, I don't use the WF: Off Hand, I think the rule is silly and the effect is better build as Limited DCV Levels. The rule exists though, so I assume someone out there uses it. If not, someone better tell Mr. Steve Long so he can make a note of it if he ever decides to do a 6th edition.

[Debra Winger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

Daeger is referring to an IM discussion we had the other day here. Could someone either confirm or refute my possition here? Also' date=' I'd also like to know what the deal is with WF: Off Hand. Personally, I don't use the WF: Off Hand, I think the rule is silly and the effect is better build as Limited DCV Levels. The rule exists though, so I assume someone out there uses it. If not, someone better tell Mr. Steve Long so he can make a note of it if he ever decides to do a 6th edition.[/quote']

 

 

A lot depends on the type of game being played. If it's a gritty modern heroic level game with players who liked a lot of HTH combat then the use of off hand penalties could be appropriate even with unarmed combat since a southpaw boxer has a small advantage over an otherwise equally skilled opponent. An ambidexterous boxer would then arguably have an even greater advantage.

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

Game time is almost here, and I have 10 points left to spend. Thanks for all the advice. I'll show you what I have once I figure out a good export template. Also, for those who were critiquing me about Speed, it's 3 now. I also decided to do away with the clinging damage shield.

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

http://ringworld.sovereigndominion.com/Experiment712.HTML Here he is. Like I said, 10 more points I don't know what to do with. Any advice?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

Personally, I would drop the 16 COM to 4 (I'm not sure why you think he is so good looking) and plough all 16 points into CON. That makes you more difficult to Stun (an attack would have to do in the region of 41 STUN to stun you rather than 33), improves your ED by 2, your rec by 2, your END by 16 and your STUN by 4. A marked improvement in your combat durability.

 

 

Doc

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

Personally, I would drop the 16 COM to 4 (I'm not sure why you think he is so good looking) and plough all 16 points into CON. That makes you more difficult to Stun (an attack would have to do in the region of 41 STUN to stun you rather than 33), improves your ED by 2, your rec by 2, your END by 16 and your STUN by 4. A marked improvement in your combat durability.

 

 

Doc

Actually, the GM said I'd have to take my COM up to 16 if I didn't want an extreme reaction on my Distinctive Features, I only wanted major. Plus, you can't really buy out points below the base by default without GM permission, it says so in the book. So he's just a fairly good-looking abomination against nature.

 

I don't really mind, he let me do a couple of things I wanted to do with my character that he was thinking of turning down.

 

Anyway, about those last 10 points?

[Daeger]

Re: Help me finish a character?

 

I think I might use the last 10 to increase my missile deflection OCV by 5. Is that worth it?