Fighting talk

[Susano]

Re: Fighting talk

 

No' date=' actually, you're right - I never owned a copy of Ninja Hero and I forgot about it. [/quote']

 

Glad to be of help.

 

In addition, Aaron Allston did demonstrate the 8 CSL "martial art," which is a perfectly valid (and dangerous) concept.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Hmm... pre-Fourth Edition Champions used to give a cost break for buying a large number of Enhanced Senses, e.g. after you had bought several (can't remember the number offhand), the cost of further Senses was cut in half. Perhaps that could be done with Martial Maneuvers of a particular art. Beyond a basic number of Character Points or Maneuvers from the art, subsequent Maneuvers would cost less.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Fighting talk

 

In addition, Aaron Allston did demonstrate the 8 CSL "martial art," which is a perfectly valid (and dangerous) concept.

 

So, for those of us that didn't play prior to 5th... huh?

[Susano]

Re: Fighting talk

 

So' date=' for those of us that didn't play prior to 5th... huh?[/quote']

 

Take 8 HTH levels for 40 points (this works well if you have a 20 STR). You can have +8 OCV strikes, +4 OCV/+4 DCV strikes, +4d6 strikes, or +2 OCV/+2d6 strikes, or... you get the idea. It doesn't do throws exactly, and doesn't help with grabs. However, Ultimate Skill may change some of that.

 

Equal to buying 20 points of classic comic book MArts and +4 with HTH.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Ironically, in The Dragon Mandarin PDF, one of Dr. Yin Wu's "Sons of the Dragon," Silver Hand, is built with exactly this CSL "martial art" rather than maneuvers.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Thanks Susano, that's kinda what I figured it was going to be but I really wasn't sure.

 

Personally, I have a bad tendency to buy LOTS of maneuvers on my MA's, but usually only 1 or 2 strikes, and then I go for things that are hard to duplicate with Hand Attacks or CSL's. Things like Foot Sweep and Martial Throw.

[Short Shot]

Re: Fighting talk

 

What I've been told and read repeatedly is learning a few techniques extemely well will work better in a real fight than a lot of techniques that you perform imperfectly.

 

My instructor refers to it as gems. Teri Tom devoted an entire book to one technique, the Straight Lead. You work one technique until you get it to the point that where, when that technique is what's needed, it is purely reflexive. You may even use it and not even realise it was the right time for it until after it's over and done with.

 

Take that over someone like me. I did tae kwon do in junior high and could do every kick and punch. I've done aikido at a couple different schools a couple times a week for about a year each time. I've practiced about half a dozen judo throws at various times to where I could do them against someone who was nearly twice my size. I'm currently practicing tai chi, with some push hands and some white crane joint locks. I'm just now getting to the point where I'll be starting sparring soon.

 

Put me up against a guy who has spent the last 6 months doing physical conditioning and basic boxing techniques, I'm going to get my head handed to me in no uncertain terms. I have all this knowledge on HOW to do stuff, but I don't have it ingrained to a reflexive action.

 

Lots of techniques vs CSLs, DEX and STR.

[sbarron]

Re: Fighting talk

 

I suppose you could alleviate some of the duplicate bases problem by forcing the special effect of moves to have ramifications. In the OP, Crescent Kick Block and an Arm Sweep Block were mentioned.

 

Placing situational modifiers on these blocks depending on the attack would help. Like, say, giving the crescent kick block a -2 OCV modifiers if trying to block a high or punching attack, and do the same for the arm sweep vs. low or kicking attacks. This would provide the MA with both blocks some advantage over the MA that took only 1.

 

Also, not allowing the Arm Sweep Block to be performed if hands are tied, or not allowing the Crescent Kick Block when standing in knee deep water, etc, would also give more utility to those that bought a variety of moves, rather than just one.

 

It certainly isn't a perfect fix, but I think it makes sense and could help bridge the gap, so to speak. You'd need to hammer out expectations with your players ahead of time, though. I can only imagine the arguments over which blocking method is more effective vs. which attacks, and whether they could still use their feet to block when standing in waist deep water, etc. unghhh.

[Lucius]

Re: Fighting talk

 

I'm just going to defer to Markdoc on this whole thread because he's making the points I wanted to make only better.

You're such a humble chap!

 

Actually, that’s kind of how I felt.

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What are the rules for using martial arts while riding a palindromedary?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fighting talk

 

What are the rules for using martial arts while riding a palindromedary?

 

You'd need Combat Riding plus Ambidexterity.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fighting talk

 

What I've been told and read repeatedly is learning a few techniques extemely well will work better in a real fight than a lot of techniques that you perform imperfectly.

 

My instructor refers to it as gems. Teri Tom devoted an entire book to one technique, the Straight Lead. You work one technique until you get it to the point that where, when that technique is what's needed, it is purely reflexive. You may even use it and not even realise it was the right time for it until after it's over and done with.

 

Take that over someone like me. I did tae kwon do in junior high and could do every kick and punch. I've done aikido at a couple different schools a couple times a week for about a year each time. I've practiced about half a dozen judo throws at various times to where I could do them against someone who was nearly twice my size. I'm currently practicing tai chi, with some push hands and some white crane joint locks. I'm just now getting to the point where I'll be starting sparring soon.

 

Put me up against a guy who has spent the last 6 months doing physical conditioning and basic boxing techniques, I'm going to get my head handed to me in no uncertain terms. I have all this knowledge on HOW to do stuff, but I don't have it ingrained to a reflexive action.

 

Lots of techniques vs CSLs, DEX and STR.

 

You see this is another interesting point about combat. You might be right the dedicated boxer might well beat you in a straight fight, but you'd probably last longer in a bar room brawl where you are not the only two combattants.

 

In practice, one really decent punch can end a fight.

 

Most untrained fights, and quite a few involving trained fighters where there is a no-rules approach ultimately come down not to the KO punch but to wrestling and groundwork. This is why judo and jujitsu always seemt o do quite well in these ultimate fighting things

[TaxiMan]

Re: Fighting talk

 

So, if you were playing a MA campaign, could you house-rule something like, "for every 10 pts in MA, you can buy Invulnerability to a single manuever"?

 

In a fight with a 60pt MA master, he might be invulnerable to the 4 maneuvers a beginner has, so the beginner can't even touch the Master. The beginner needs to learn additional attacks.

 

It's just a quick thought, maybe instead of Invulnerability, they get +2 DCV? I don't know, tear into the idea. I'm tired.

[Susano]

Re: Fighting talk

 

So, if you were playing a MA campaign, could you house-rule something like, "for every 10 pts in MA, you can buy Invulnerability to a single manuever"?

 

In a fight with a 60pt MA master, he might be invulnerable to the 4 maneuvers a beginner has, so the beginner can't even touch the Master. The beginner needs to learn additional attacks.

 

It's just a quick thought, maybe instead of Invulnerability, they get +2 DCV? I don't know, tear into the idea. I'm tired.

 

4th Ed. Ninja Hero recommended giving the guy 8 CSLs for that fight. Once the PCs train in a new style, those 8 CSLs go away.

[OddHat]

Re: Fighting talk

 

4th Ed. Ninja Hero recommended giving the guy 8 CSLs for that fight. Once the PCs train in a new style' date=' those 8 CSLs go away.[/quote']

 

Yup.

 

I'd re-state that, in the current system, giving a character all the maneuvers of a given style is not the best way to build an "Old Master". It may be counter-intuitive, but there it is.

 

I don't think giving special bonuses for taking that path is needed. If I did give such bonuses, I'd allow the multiple attack rules with Martial Arts, as they already exist, to be used liberally by such a maneuver heavy character; an old master is throwing combinations every phase is a formidable opponent, and is getting more than his point value from those redundant moves.

 

As things stand, high Analyze Combat (make the roll by half for a bonus +2 levels) and Analyze Style (make the roll by half for a rough breakdown of the foe's PhysLims and vulnerabilities, and +2 DCV) skills, Rapid Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, plus skill levels and ancilliary skills. Damage Classes and powers are best for representing such a character. He won't vastly overpower a character built on a similar number of points and similarly combat optimized, but then that's the way a point based system goes.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Yup.

 

I'd re-state that, in the current system, giving a character all the maneuvers of a given style is not the best way to build an "Old Master". It may be counter-intuitive, but there it is.

 

Agreed.

 

I don't think giving special bonuses for taking that path is needed. If I did give such bonuses' date=' I'd allow the multiple attack rules with Martial Arts, as they already exist, to be used liberally by such a maneuver heavy character; an old master is throwing combinations every phase is a formidable opponent, and is getting more than his point value from those redundant moves.[/quote']

 

Nah, he's still gonna get his bony little ass handed to him, since he has to be able to *hit* his opponent with those attacks - and the whole problem with spending lots of points on maneuvers is that Louie the truck driver ends up with a better CV. All throwing bunches of MPAs means is that he'll run out of END even sooner.

 

Your first comment - forget about buying lots of maneuvers, get CSLs and just call it special effects - is better, albeit not intuitive.

 

Like you, I'm not happy with just giving levels for the heck of it. It's like saying "the system is broken - here, have some extra points to compensate".

 

Of course you could always fix the system - not surprisingly, that was my choice

 

cheers, Mark

[OddHat]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Nah, he's still gonna get his bony little ass handed to him, since he has to be able to *hit* his opponent with those attacks - and the whole problem with spending lots of points on maneuvers is that Louie the truck driver ends up with a better CV. All throwing bunches of MPAs means is that he'll run out of END even sooner.

 

Which is why it's not my first choice; it puts us in the weird position of the Old Master as the damage dealing machine and Louie as the guy with higher combat value. Still, depending on just how much higher, the many maneuver Old Master at least will do absurd damage when he hits.

Your first comment - forget about buying lots of maneuvers, get CSLs and just call it special effects - is better, albeit not intuitive.

 

The non-intuitive nature of the current system is my own main complaint, rather than the mechanics.

[sbarron]

Re: Fighting talk

 

I think there is a difference between a "fighter" and a "master" martial artist, and HERO models this pretty well.

 

Most good street fighters are not masters of a martial art. They bought the manuevers that work best in a fight and bought levels and CHAR. They don't know lots of fancy escapes, disarms, joint locks, etc. They are in excellent shape, know several effective stikes and blocks, and have plenty of skill levels.

 

Most professional boxers aren't "masters" of the boxing art early in their careers. A great thing about boxing is you can see a clear conflict between aging veterans, who presumably better understand the boxing art, with the young bulls, who use the speed and power of youth to compensate for their lack of knowledge. I like that dichotomy.

 

On a different note, I wonder how much of the "old master" beating "young pup" boils down to knowledge of the system (assuming a fight modeled with HERO). Maybe the old master wins because he puts lots of levels in DCV, uses martial dodge effectively, and holds his actions to take advantage of the situation. The less trained martial artist attacks a lot, has no patience, and makes all the mistakes that plague the young. As a result, the aging master is able to whoop his butt.

 

Of course, in the movies, the aging master is only able to beat his young pupil for a few months. That's how long it takes the young fighter to learn patience, humility, and that un-blockable dragon punch.

[zornwil]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Ideally, I'd look at martial arts as a sort of power or talent or skill, possibly one per "school" (made-up or real) per character, and then each maneuver is basically some sort of discounted part of that, with payment only for distinct maneuvers regardless of SFX (buy Variable SFX, which could just be expressed as a simple Adder for given the base value won't change). I'm not saying to change the actual way martial arts are executed, just the structure of purchase and assignment and costing (while retaining some sort of similar costing, I'm not sure as I'm no specialist in MAs).

 

Although in my supers games, each 5 points in MA manuevers is a +1/4 Advantage to STR, a sort of continuation of the original way it was done in Champions. I don't do my heroic level game that way (as rarely as I run it).

[mikesama]

Re: Fighting talk

 

It's really funny, when I look at the rules that 10 points of martial maneuvers = a black belt I have to laugh. Honestly after 4-5 years of training you should be closer to 20 points of maneuvers than 10. Most martial artists I play usually have at least 20 points. The two I currently have have 25 and 25 points in maneuvers respectivly.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Hmm. So the question is, how do you provide an incentive for martial artists to continue to purchase martial arts rather than use them as a supplement to increased characteristics and skill levels?

 

Give their nemesis 1 DCV level only against an attack that has just been thrown RSR: Analyze martial arts., 1 DCV level only against an attack than has been thrown twice consecutively, and 1 DCV level that has been thrown three times in succession.

 

That'll show those one-maneuver wonders.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Fighting talk

 

1. You can use MPAs with various MA attacks can you? That's just wrong. I mean' date=' you are using STR for every attack, so surely that contravenes the rules?[/quote']

 

The only way that I know of to use more than one Martial Maneuver in one action is to use the Two-Weapon Fighting skill, like on p 73 of 5R).

 

Here's a thought. Use Hit Locations (it can be solely to determine where attacks hit, and doesn't have to affect damage). Certain Blocks are better at blocking attacks to certain locations. Define the "home" areas for each block, then assess a minor to moderate penalty, or even an outright inability, to block attacks outside that area. Now there is a good reason to have more than one kind of Block.

[OddHat]

Re: Fighting talk

 

The only way that I know of to use more than one Martial Maneuver in one action is to use the Two-Weapon Fighting skill' date=' like on p 73 of 5R).[/quote']

 

5ther, p.358-360. Note especially paragraph 4 on 359 and paragraph 1 on p.360. So long as the GM feels that the attacks are "reasonably distinguishable", they can be combined in a MPA. Usually this means that you need to use separate bases: a Strike and a Disarm is OK, a Killing Strike and a Martial Flash is OK, two strikes generally but not always would be advised against. This is also covered in the UMA and the Combat Handbook.

 

I restrict this in my games, but it is another way to give a bonus to characters with long lists of maneuvers.