Assumptions within HERO

[Manic Typist]

It occured to me while browsing some threads (specifically the PC's as AI thread) that there are, obviously, a number of assumptions within HERO. Of course, some level of assumptions are not only inevitable, but necessary. However, it can be educational, useful, and even fun to find assumptions and then challenge them.

 

So, what assumptions do you see there as being within the HERO system? I am especially interested in any assumptions that might look unreasonable or alterable in the face of due consideration. If you challenge certain assumptions, perhaps something new will come to light, and new avenues can be explored.

 

For instance, one basic assumption is that your character has a normal, coporeal body, at least to start with. The "default" avatar you are given with your character sheet. I always imagine it as a gray skinned version of the HERO logo. You have to buy powers and abilities to become invisible, or incoporeal, etc, instead of having to buy powers or abilities to become visible, or coporeal. Of course this assumption is necessary, and it could even be dismissed as SFX, but I think it is a good example of a very basic assumption and is probably not a very important one. However, if we didn't have this assumption... then the system would be very different. For instance, most characters would end up "buying" what they needed to make up their physical body.

 

What assumptions do you see?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

There is an assumption that abilities usable in a combat situation, or at least where some type of conflict-resolving mechanic like an Attack Roll is involved, are more inherently useful within the game than abilities which are not. This is reflected in the relative point costs of these abilities: compare the cost for only a few dice of attack Powers vs. that to be a billionaire or a head of state, which in many ways confers far more practical power. Or to possess a broad array of Knowledge Skills or Sciences.

[OddHat]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

There have been a few threads on this over the years.

 

I'd say the basics are:

 

1) Your character is assumed to be Human.

 

2) Your character is assumed to be Exceptional.

 

3) HERO evolved from a game about Superheroes, and many bits and pieces from that genre remain.

[zornwil]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

In a group which has not been active due to my inability to dedicate time to it, we just started tackling questions like these. Here is the Goodman Institute's finding on the basic system axiom...

 

First, defining "axiom": "Axioms are the underlying principles and assumptions that guide and define system development and use."

 

Base axioms:

 

HERO is intended to support a broad range of Play Experiences within the action/adventure style as demonstrated by popular comic books, books, movies, and other mass media.

 

Hero establishes no hard limits on the scope of play, but will functionally support some levels/styles/scopes better than others.

 

Hero strives to establish a foundation of building blocks that are applicable to many action/adventure genres, but specific to none

 

Playabilty is more important than consistency.

 

Mechanic level constructs should be created with regard to rationalized cause and effect, not flavor or SFX.

 

Spending points for a character ability (characteristic/talent/skill/power/etc.) is an indication of player control over use of that ability. (or an axiom stated similar to this)

[Rapier]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

There is an assumption that abilities usable in a combat situation' date=' or at least where some type of conflict-resolving mechanic like an Attack Roll is involved, are more inherently useful within the game than abilities which are not. This is reflected in the relative point costs of these abilities: compare the cost for only a few dice of attack Powers vs. that to be a billionaire or a head of state, which in many ways confers far more practical power. Or to possess a broad array of Knowledge Skills or Sciences.[/quote']

 

I've got to say that right now my enhanced Perception, Tracking and Stealth have been of much more use to the plot than my big-freakin gun.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

 

 

Mechanic level constructs should be created with regard to rationalized cause and effect, not flavor or SFX.

 

 

Could you explain this one a bit further, as to the meaning and(more importantly) rationale?

[schir1964]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Mechanic level constructs should be created with regard to rationalized cause and effect' date=' not flavor or SFX.[/quote']Could you explain this one a bit further, as to the meaning and(more importantly) rationale?

This may not be easily explained. I would have to go back and re-read our threads that resulted in these defintions, but I'll try to explain some of it, and Zornwil can correct/elaborate on it further.

 

Basically, if one is going create new mechanics (yeah, that's me) then in order to be consistent and try not to make a mechanic that is specific to a single genre/SFX/setting certain guidelines should be followed.

 

An example might be:

1) The Mechanic shouldn't duplicate the same function of another mechanic, or at least should offer something unique if it is similar in function to another mechanic.

2) The Mechanic should be equally applicable to any genre or setting even though frequency and utility might be different from each genre or setting.

3) The Mechanic should be costed in a way that should be balanced in respect to other mechanics as far a utility (balance being a very interpretive and elusive idea).

 

Furthermore, one could classify Mechanics into several groups:

1) Core Mechanics: Those Mechanics that are required in order for the system to work as designed and if removed or changed has a drastic effect on the system playability (usually in a negative way). (Defenses/OCV/STR)

2) Optional Mechanics: Those Mechanics that either enhance or change the playablity of the system to a more desired play experience. (Hit Locations)

3) Genre/Setting Rules: These are mechanics that either change or overlay the current mechanics to help bring playability to a certain Genre/Setting that would be difficult otherwise. (Spell Costs divided 3 for Fantasy Hero)

 

Again this is just one way to look at it, and Zornwil may be able to explain it better than this.

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

This may not be easily explained. I would have to go back and re-read our threads that resulted in these defintions, but I'll try to explain some of it, and Zornwil can correct/elaborate on it further.

 

Basically, if one is going create new mechanics (yeah, that's me) then in order to be consistent and try not to make a mechanic that is specific to a single genre/SFX/setting certain guidelines should be followed.

 

An example might be:

1) The Mechanic shouldn't duplicate the same function of another mechanic, or at least should offer something unique if it is similar in function to another mechanic.

2) The Mechanic should be equally applicable to any genre or setting even though frequency and utility might be different from each genre or setting.

3) The Mechanic should be costed in a way that should be balanced in respect to other mechanics as far a utility (balance being a very interpretive and elusive idea).

 

Furthermore, one could classify Mechanics into several groups:

1) Core Mechanics: Those Mechanics that are required in order for the system to work as designed and if removed or changed has a drastic effect on the system playability (usually in a negative way). (Defenses/OCV/STR)

2) Optional Mechanics: Those Mechanics that either enhance or change the playablity of the system to a more desired play experience. (Hit Locations)

3) Genre/Setting Rules: These are mechanics that either change or overlay the current mechanics to help bring playability to a certain Genre/Setting that would be difficult otherwise. (Spell Costs divided 3 for Fantasy Hero)

 

Again this is just one way to look at it, and Zornwil may be able to explain it better than this.

- Christopher Mullins

That's correct, note that Christopher mentions his bullet list as "an example" and so while those are good ones they are not the point of the axiom itself - that would be the next layer down in terms of metarules and mechanics.

[Robyn]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

However' date=' if we didn't have this assumption... then the system would be very different. For instance, most characters would end up "buying" what they needed to make up their physical body.[/quote']

 

I've been working on something very similar . . . looking for the common thread to game structures that are, on the surface, very different. The area of senses would actually be one of the (few) practical applications I've already seen for this:

 

1) Sight can be statted out by Linking a Detect with an Analyze for the "Visible" Light Spectrum with Continuous (the eyes are always taking in and evaluating all the available data, they don't have to regularly be turned back on), Uncontrolled (they can't be "turned off" by mere force of will), and Restrainable (close the eyelids or otherwise cover up the eyes).

 

2) Radiation is something that normal humans can't detect, but which does exist and may affect them (in the long run, but sometimes immediately too). Humans are also broadcasting their existence on several other sensory planes, only some of which they can perceive, and the signals emitted may provide clues to their location, state of mind, or other useful information. The cost of Invisibility to a Sense or Sense Group is based on how common the Sense is for perceiving it (hence, statting out common sense - i.e., a sense of commonality - by assigning numbers to it), but this assumes that the natural state of the human is to be visible. I've been looking at doing those through the Disadvantage mechanic: as part of the "normal human" package, characters buy the appropriate Disadvantage (the points from it are used to buy things like Sight), and when they wish to hide from those senses, they aren't so much buying a new Power as they are buying off their Disadvantage.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

I've got to say that right now my enhanced Perception' date=' Tracking and Stealth have been of much more use to the plot than my big-freakin gun.[/quote']

 

Exactly so. The value of these things in a particular game are to a large extent contextual, depending on the types of situations that the GM puts the players in. It occurs to me that the cost structure for combat abilities, particularly Powers, may be a legacy from the superheroic roots of the system, while that for Skills may derive from the heroic genres, with their lower point totals, where Skills were much more significant to the characters.

[OddHat]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Exactly so. The value of these things in a particular game are to a large extent contextual' date=' depending on the types of situations that the GM puts the players in. It occurs to me that the cost structure for combat abilities, particularly Powers, may be a legacy from the superheroic roots of the system, while that for Skills may derive from the heroic genres, with their lower point totals, where Skills were much more significant to the characters.[/quote']

 

Sounds right.

 

A case can be made that the cost values for characteristics, powers, skills, advantages and limitations should be reviewed and where appropriate adjusted for every campaign, and to a limited extent we all do something like that when we declare that Limit "X" or Framework "Y" will either be unavailable or recosted in our games. Taken to extremes, we'd end up over-complicating a system that's already complex even for many experienced gamers, and introducing new balance issues for every one we addressed.

 

Sometimes we just have to shut up and roll the dice.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

There are a number of assumptions in any game, and in every game system. In the Hero System, OddHat has definately got two of them (I disagree with his third; that would me a personal assumption/opinion rather than an assumption made by the rules).

 

As OddHat says, the primary assumptions are that characters are human and exceptional in nature. The rules specifically list "average" Characteristics as 8-10, 10 being to top end of average, and that top end is where characters start. It's generally expected that characters will increase their Characteristics, making them exceptional. The Characteristics, and all other default abilities, such as senses, reach, movement, are based upon the upper end of an average human. I don't think the rules/system as a whole makes any other assumptions directly. Some specific rules may make a certain assumption, but these are typically optional rules, or rules labled with an exclamation/stopsign.

 

Some games/genres may make additional assumptions, such as mind categories, how much of a certain SFX is in existance or whether or not it affects a character, and so on.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

It is assumed your costume is made of something that is not going to be annihilated when you are hit by Dr Megaton's fusion beam, which can normally volatilise 3 inch steel plate.

 

Actually we once played a game where that wasn't an assumption.

 

Interesting game...

[OddHat]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

(I disagree with his third; that would me a personal assumption/opinion rather than an assumption made by the rules).

 

Assumption #3 was "HERO evolved from a game about Superheroes, and many bits and pieces from that genre remain"

 

Champions evolved into HERO. From that we get a fair amount of holdovers:

 

Game elements are "Powers" and "Skills" rather than "Effects"

 

Powers such as "Desolidification" and "Missile Deflection" retain their names even though the SFX may not actually have anything to do with "Becoming Intangible" or "Deflecting a Missile"

 

This holdover terminology, and the associated blending of SFX and Game Elements, is a cause of endless debate.

 

I guess you could say that these are not "assumptions" but I can't think of a better descriptive term at the moment.

 

THinking about it, there's also an assumption that SFX and Mechanical Effect can be separated.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

I think there's a general assumption that specialists beat generalists. In Champions for instance, it is assumed that characters will fall into one of the basic types: Brick, Martial Artist, Energy Projector, etc. If you try to build a character that doesn't neatly fit into any of these types, or combines some features of more than one, the character will be less efficiently built/less powerful.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Assumption #3 was "HERO evolved from a game about Superheroes, and many bits and pieces from that genre remain"

 

Champions evolved into HERO. From that we get a fair amount of holdovers:

 

Game elements are "Powers" and "Skills" rather than "Effects"

 

Powers such as "Desolidification" and "Missile Deflection" retain their names even though the SFX may not actually have anything to do with "Becoming Intangible" or "Deflecting a Missile"

 

This holdover terminology, and the associated blending of SFX and Game Elements, is a cause of endless debate.

 

I guess you could say that these are not "assumptions" but I can't think of a better descriptive term at the moment.

 

THinking about it, there's also an assumption that SFX and Mechanical Effect can be separated.

I'll make no agruement against that several elements of the rules evolved from a game geared toward the action of comic book superheroes. I only disagree the rules assume that. Since the rules have no memory or mind (they aren't self aware), they can not make assumptions based on their own history. I also don't think the rules care (or are capable of caring) what the terms are that label its mechanics.

 

About separating SFX from mechanic effect: that's not an assumption, it's a design feature. Some players may assume certain game mechanics cater to specific SFX, or favor/require some SFX over others, but it's my personal belief they do not and all game mechanics are impartial.

 

Then again, you could say the rules assume a player will use them as presented. Or you may even say the rules assume all players will create at least one house rule, so I suppose the rules can't assume either. I don't know, I can't ask them.

[zornwil]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

(snip)

 

About separating SFX from mechanic effect: that's not an assumption, it's a design feature. Some players may assume certain game mechanics cater to specific SFX, or favor/require some SFX over others, but it's my personal belief they do not and all game mechanics are impartial.

 

Do you mean all game systems are this way?

[OddHat]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Since the rules have no memory or mind (they aren't self aware)' date=' they can not make assumptions based on their own history.[/quote']

 

I'd say that the history of the system has a notable impact on how the rules are now structured.

 

I also don't think the rules care (or are capable of caring) what the terms are that label its mechanics.

 

About separating SFX from mechanic effect: that's not an assumption, it's a design feature. Some players may assume certain game mechanics cater to specific SFX, or favor/require some SFX over others, but it's my personal belief they do not and all game mechanics are impartial.

 

Maybe. On the other hand, as Steve's recent ruling on Desolidification and falling shows, the label "Desolidification" does assume that a character is actually desolidified, even if the SFX is that he's Invulnerable to Impact Damage.

 

Agree or disagree with that ruling, the label does apparently matter.

[secretID]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

In addition to the assumptions about the physical body already mentioned, there are many assumptions about psychological and social "normalcy," most of which is actually superiority, inherent in the disads and perks, including:

- not the slightest psychological disorder or quirk

- above average income and no significant debt

- no spouse, close family, etc.

 

The ability to improve over time includes some interesting assumptions. There is no default physical decline or improvement, which would place someone in his/her early 20s, I would say. However, while characters are resistant to the physical effects of aging, which are significant even in the late 20s/early 30s, they are capable of improving themselves substantially. Improvement in non-combat areas is particularly impressive in Champions, given that the characters lead such busy lives.

 

Depending on the everyman package in use, the base character may be pretty ignorant. At a minimum, it's unusual to get into your adult years with no professional skills at all, especially considering that your income may be three times the average.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Do you mean all game systems are this way?

Of course not. I was only refering to the Hero System.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

I'd say that the history of the system has a notable impact on how the rules are now structured.

Agreed. My only point in this matter is that the rules themselves don't care. The authors might, and the players might, but not the rules.

 

Maybe. On the other hand, as Steve's recent ruling on Desolidification and falling shows, the label "Desolidification" does assume that a character is actually desolidified, even if the SFX is that he's Invulnerable to Impact Damage.

 

Agree or disagree with that ruling, the label does apparently matter.

Well, I'm not sure if that's a fair way of putting it. You might as well state that Energy Blast "assumes" the character will be attacking at range. Unlike Desolidification, the Power isn't labeled "Ranged Blast", but that isn't the rule's fault. Regardless, desolidified is a game mechanic rather than a SFX; one that defines a state of being capable of ignoring most attacks and being able to pass through solid objects. The reason/SFX the character can do this can be anything.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Depending on the everyman package in use, the base character may be pretty ignorant. At a minimum, it's unusual to get into your adult years with no professional skills at all, especially considering that your income may be three times the average.

It's assumed that a single 11- Skill represents what it takes to earn $50,000+/year in a modern setting, and that all player characters possess such a Skill at no cost.

[OddHat]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Well, I'm not sure if that's a fair way of putting it. You might as well state that Energy Blast "assumes" the character will be attacking at range. Unlike Desolidification, the Power isn't labeled "Ranged Blast", but that isn't the rule's fault.

 

I was actually thinking about this when looking at the official write up for blood drinking, which used a Ranged Killing Attack with the limitation No Range. I'm getting to the point where I'd rathers see "Do Damage" as the base element and then have range, type of damage, etc. treated as adders.

 

Regardless, desolidified is a game mechanic rather than a SFX; one that defines a state of being capable of ignoring most attacks and being able to pass through solid objects. The reason/SFX the character can do this can be anything.

 

It used to be "anything." Following that ruling it really can't. Desolidification as Invulnerability becomes non-viable when it can no longer protect from falling damage.

[yamamura]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

HERO assumes by there being point caps that there will be a constant battle between players and GM that needs to have some control favoring the GM. Yes your player can buy up his armor piercing but eventually he hits the campaign's AC cap. On the other hand the GM can freely ignore that and create a villain that has enough hardened on his defenses to counteract the player even if it violates the campaign guidlines (hopefully because it fits the villain and not just to cheat the player). I have heard horror stories from both HERO and GURPS where it became nothing in designing of character of the players always trying to one up the GM and GM trying to one up his players

[Markdoc]

Re: Assumptions within HERO

 

Strange. Given most the assumptions aired here, I can clearly no longer assume that my assumptions about the rules bear much similarity to my own - almost none of the assumptions listed here would be valid in my games, or in most of those I have played in.

 

cheers, Mark