What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

[Short Shot]

Okay, it's been 7 years or so since I qualified with the M16 on the popup range. As I recall, it was high/head shots at 50 meters out to torso shots at 300 meters. I THINK it was about 3 seconds available per shot from a sandbag rest, with being able to take the occational second shot at a target (I don't remember how many extra rounds were available)

 

I'm assuming 0 DCV since the targets weren't moving. What breakdown would you have between the weapon, bracing, extra time/aim to score 36-40 hits out of 40 targets under these conditions?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

I don't know anything about the new range, but here's the KD range I qualed on:

 

http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/m16/m16%20Qual/currentcourse/currentm16qual.html

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Well.

 

You have an M16 with an inherent +1 OCV. Your initial targets are 50 meters out, which is 25" at 2 meters per 1". A high shot is what, -4? And you have 20 targets. You have to be able to reliably tag a net -12, between the range and accuracy modifier.

 

Most people will start with a 5 OCV (for average purposes, we'll say 5). And you have a target with a 0 DCV. Okay. You get a +1 from the weapon, putting you at 6 OCV. You now need a short stack of CSLs to hit better, and probably a few PSLs to represent your accuracy (such as Supreme Sniper, from DC) and you're good to go. There are a LOT of ways to get there from here, all of which are reasonable for that character type. See also Dark Champions for further expansions.

 

Your 300 meter targets (150") aren't that much harder if you're going for the 'torso' and the DM rules that you'll hit it as an SFX (which I would). It's only another -4 Range Penalty.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Don't forget Brace and Set bonuses.

 

I qualified Expert with the M16A1 every single time I shot the thing, including during Basic Training. I'm a pretty good rifle shot, but I just can't buy a total -12 modifier for the targets. I think we're overlooking something important. Perhaps a bonus because you know exactly where the targets will be; and maybe another for high contrast?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

I just qualled last month:

 

For pop-up range:

 

20 random pop-ups from the supported standing fox hole position. It used to be that you then shot 20 from the prone (laying down) unsupported position, but now it's 10 prone unsupported and 10 from the kneeling.

 

The time you get to aim and shoot varies with distance, but it's about 3-4 seconds for the 50 meter targets up to about 7-9 seconds for the 300 meter targets.

 

The first 8-10 shots are single target shots, but after that you get 2 popping up at once at differing ranges (you never get two 100s up at the same time, for example)

 

For anyone confident in their shooting, this is plenty of time to acquire, aim, and shoot.

 

Getting a Hawkeye (40 out of 40), is pretty uncommon in the units I've been in, but I've never been in a line unit that had people who used their weapon more than twice a year. We still saw Hawkeye's

 

I'd say that if you wanted to roll it up into one roll, getting a 3 would be sufficient. A straight 3. Getting Expert (36 out of 40) 5 or less.

 

Otherwise, I'd have to take a closer look at the die roll percentages to figure this out. Any help on this would be great.

 

 

The Ivans when they popped up would give you mid-torso and higher for the close ones, and waist and higher for the farther ones. With fresh targets (this should incur penalties if you have badly shot up targets) all you have to do is hit it anywhere on the target, shoulder, torso, head, whatever... as long as it hits the silouette.

 

Heck, if you can get some of the dirt to kick up and hit it if you hit the ground in front of it and it just might knock it down. So you might want to have a secondary roll if you miss the target by one if you're being a kind GM.

 

TB

[Teflon Billy]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Don't forget Brace and Set bonuses.

 

I qualified Expert with the M16A1 every single time I shot the thing, including during Basic Training. I'm a pretty good rifle shot, but I just can't buy a total -12 modifier for the targets. I think we're overlooking something important. Perhaps a bonus because you know exactly where the targets will be; and maybe another for high contrast?

Whoa! -12 is way way more difficult than getting Hawkeye ever should be. Maybe if there was a monsoon and you had targets with a basketball sized hole shot out of them. I'd go -6 maybe -7 tops for a good weather and quality range day. But really I don't think it should be quite that hard.

 

TB

[Trebuchet]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Whoa! -12 is way way more difficult than getting Hawkeye ever should be. Maybe if there was a monsoon and you had targets with a basketball sized hole shot out of them. I'd go -6 maybe -7 tops for a good weather and quality range day. But really I don't think it should be quite that hard.

Me neither. I was responding to Thia Halmades post #3 above where he suggested a -12 penalty for the 300 meter targets. I think that's way too high. My thinking is along the line of yours: -6 or -7 max.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea of how many US soldiers qualify as Expert? Perhaps we can come up with a difficulty calculation based on the percentage that shot Expert?

 

Factors I can see applying to the positive:

 

Braced

Set

Known target locations

Known target range

High contrast targets

Extra Time (Full Phase)

 

Factors I can see applying negatives:

Weather

Lack of practice*

 

 

* When I was stationed as cadre in the Air Defense School at Ft. Bliss from 1978-81, the only "practice" I got with the M16A1 was on the day of my annual qualification. They'd give me a worn M16 and 20 rounds to sight it in. I'd like to (fervently) hope that soldiers in actual combat units get more practice with small arms than that.

[Zed-F]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Note: called shot penalties for immobile unaware targets are halved. (They count as surprised out of combat, and would take double STUN as well if a pop-up target had any.) So that has to help.

 

You might also make a house rule that range penalties for immobile unaware targets are halved as well.

 

What about scopes?

[Short Shot]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Scopes: None. Once you get used to it, though, the peep site on an M16A2 is much better than a standard open site.

 

With respect to kicking up dirt and getting a score: As I recall, they had modified the target hit sensors so that it had to be a certain frequency to cause the target to drop. Dirt hitting the target has a different type of impact than a .223 round, and wouldn't drop the targets on the range I was on.

[Tom]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

I haven't qualified on a military range in over a decade, but it occurs to me that rather than using called shot penalties, it might be more accurate to use the cover modifiers. You're not trying to hit specific parts of a target so much as hit a target which is represented as being partially behind cover.

 

DCV bonus for cover is +2/+4 iirc (and as was pointed out earlier, treating the target as being 'surprised' for DCV purposes makes that +1/+2)

[Dust Raven]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

I'm assuming 0 DCV since the targets weren't moving. What breakdown would you have between the weapon' date=' bracing, extra time/aim to score 36-40 hits out of 40 targets under these conditions?[/quote']

Okay. The targets are immobile/unaware torso sized "high shot" targets. That makes them DCV 0. The attacker has the following modifiers to his OCV:

 

Range: -6 (50m) / -12 (300m)

Hit Location: -2 (high shot) / -1 (torso)

Set: +1

Brace: +2 (Rmod only)

Weapon: +1

 

Net Modifier: -4 (50m) / -7 (300m)

 

Assuming familiarity with the weapon and a DEX of 8-10, that give the shooter a (11-1-0) 10- for the 50m and (11-4-0) 7- for the 300m. Obviously this guy could use the better reflexes, but what he absolutely needs are CSLs. To get the attack roll to a reasonably guarenteed-to-hit level at the 300m range, which I'll define as a 14-, you'll be needing an additional +7 OCV, either through levels or DEX. This would also make the 50m chance to hit a whopping 17- which is all but guarenteed. This also assumes the shooter has a SPD of 4. If the shooter has a lower SPD, he'll need an additional +1 OCV for each point of SPD below 4, and will be Rapid Firing to keep the pace of 1 shot per 3 seconds.

 

That sounds about right actually. If the average infantryman has a SPD of 3 and DEX of 11, he'll be needing a total of 7 or 8 levels that apply to the M16 to consistantly make perfect 40s. If he only has 4-5 levels, it's possible, and not even unusual, to frequently score 40, but with enough 30-36 scores to keep his ego from getting out of control. I suppose the average soldier may have no more than 2 levels, which allows for 1 or 2 out of a large group to make a 40 on pure luck.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Okay. The targets are immobile/unaware torso sized "high shot" targets. That makes them DCV 0. The attacker has the following modifiers to his OCV:

 

Range: -6 (50m) / -12 (300m)

Hit Location: -2 (high shot) / -1 (torso)

Set: +1

Brace: +2 (Rmod only)

Weapon: +1

 

Net Modifier: -4 (50m) / -7 (300m)

 

Assuming familiarity with the weapon and a DEX of 8-10, that give the shooter a (11-1-0) 10- for the 50m and (11-4-0) 7- for the 300m. Obviously this guy could use the better reflexes, but what he absolutely needs are CSLs. To get the attack roll to a reasonably guarenteed-to-hit level at the 300m range, which I'll define as a 14-, you'll be needing an additional +7 OCV, either through levels or DEX. This would also make the 50m chance to hit a whopping 17- which is all but guarenteed. This also assumes the shooter has a SPD of 4. If the shooter has a lower SPD, he'll need an additional +1 OCV for each point of SPD below 4, and will be Rapid Firing to keep the pace of 1 shot per 3 seconds.

 

That sounds about right actually. If the average infantryman has a SPD of 3 and DEX of 11, he'll be needing a total of 7 or 8 levels that apply to the M16 to consistantly make perfect 40s. If he only has 4-5 levels, it's possible, and not even unusual, to frequently score 40, but with enough 30-36 scores to keep his ego from getting out of control. I suppose the average soldier may have no more than 2 levels, which allows for 1 or 2 out of a large group to make a 40 on pure luck.

After this, then I would say for the normal Soldier then it's 2-3 levels, because getting a Hawkeye is pretty rare (1-2 out of 300-400) with the chance no one gets one.

 

Oh, and hitting the 50 meter targets should be almost a guarantee. Those things are a piece of cake to hit.

 

TB

[Captain Obvious]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Yeah, you should keep in mind that a passing score is 23, and whatever rules you set up to simulate a range has to take that into account. I don't believe for a minute that the average soldier has any more skill levels in their weapon than the Basic Training package provides. Infantry has more, definitely, but not the average soldier, which includes clerks, mechanics, drivers, medics, all sorts of REMFs.

 

I don't hit those 50m targets as often as you would think. They're only up for a few seconds, and I suppose I get a little crazy and fire too fast, or else take too much time aiming and don't get the shot off at all. I'm pretty consistent on getting 2 out of 3 on the 300m guys, though, because they're up for eight seconds, and you have time to aim.

[Markdoc]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Also, based on RL hunting experience and ranges from combat reports, I assume that shooting on the range gives you the "ideal situation" and "tools" bonus. My own experience is that guys who could routinely tag a man-sized target at 100M on the range could routinely miss a much larger target at a half of that range when they were shooting at a live, moving target. Move that to a combat situation where the target is or may be shoting back and I could easily believe that you can drop the range rate to a third in RL combat.

 

That not only matches what my Dad (a very-experienced combat vet who later did range training for the NZ equivalent of the National Guard) told me but also the real life combat statistics for Iraq, suggesting things haven't changed that much in 50 years - it's the person shooting who makes the biggest difference.

 

If you make that assumption then your hypothetical average infantryman with a SPD of 3 and DEX of 11 needs 4-5 levels to consistently shoot 40 and with 3 will manage it a reasonable amount of the time.

 

cheers, Mark

[LordGhee]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Hey TB

 

What are the ranges of the first 20 then the prone 10 and the kneeling 10

 

please

 

Lord Ghee

[Zed-F]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

You know...

 

Shooting at stationary targets isn't necessarily best resolved by OCV/DCV. Perhaps this is something better covered by PS: Solider.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

Hey TB

 

What are the ranges of the first 20 then the prone 10 and the kneeling 10

 

please

 

Lord Ghee

The ranges are random, but the distances are 50m, 100m, 150m, 200m, 250m, and 300m.

 

I say random in that although they tend to follow a set pattern, and usually this pattern doesn't change during a single range day, you only really see the pattern that one time you are up and qualifying. If you fail, they'll usually give you a second chance (or more if there is ammo available and time) but they will enter a score of 23 (the lowest) regardless of what you shoot if you pass.

 

The 300m come up the least, I'm almost positive they only come up 3 times in 40 total shots, maybe 4 times.

 

Of course a range is an ideal situation, that's why we go and do live fire ranges, Urban assault courses, STX lanes, and other more realistic training. Marksmanship qualification has almost nothing to do with the real combat prepatory training, its there so you can accurately zero your rifle. You get good at firing under stress at other ranges.

 

TB

[LordGhee]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

M-16 pop up range table

 

Ranges Hero range cbt (opt) Out of cbt 18minus percent 16minus %

50m 25” -6 -3 Roll 14 90.7% Roll 13 83.8

100m 50” -8 -4 Roll 13 83.8% Roll 12 74.1

150m 75” -10(-9) -5 Roll 12 74.1% Roll 11 62.5

200m 100” -10 -5 Roll 12 74.1% Roll 11 62.5

250m 125” -10 -5 Roll 12 74.1% Roll 11 62.5

300m 150” -12 (-11) -6 Roll 11 62.5% Roll 10 50

 

 

 

% info thanks to Killer shrike at http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/BellCurveVsLinear.shtml

 

Target out of cbt ocv 0

Target half hidden -2 (out of cbt –1)

 

Brace +2 OCV

Set + 1 OCV

For boot +1 OCV with weapon

M-16 + 1 to OCV

 

Boots Base OCV of 3 + 4 OCV-1 DCV ( for cover) = 6

 

So the roll to hit the out of combat target: 11 + 6 OCV – 0 DCV = 17 or less to hit

 

So with a pop up of 2 at 50m, 2 at 100m, 2 at 150, 2 at 200m , 1 at 250 and 1 at 300

For a grouping of ten

 

Then with 20 shots and average of 15 or 16 will be scored from the standing supported fox hole position on average.

 

Standing up unbraced - you get an average of 6 or 7 for a group of ten.

Kneeling if you can brace your self 7 or 8 if you can not 6 or 7.

 

So with a low of 15 + 6+6 =27 to an average high of 30.

 

Why would a boot fail? The most likely reason is that the boot did not understand :dol: the weapon familiarly instructions ( can not zero weapon – in Iraqi the Iraqi’s did not get taught this in boot camp and could not hit anything. Much to my buddy’s Horror [he took them to the range })

 

So the army seems to have a good system to figure out if the boot is trained.

At least according to champions.

Just some thoughts.

Lord Ghee

[Captain Obvious]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c06.htm#sectioniii

 

Of special interest here is Table 6-2. It gives the number of targets at each range, the length of time each is exposed, and the expected percentages of hits. Keep in mind that these targets will pop up in random order.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What combination would it take to score 40 on the pop-up M16 range?

 

You know...

 

Shooting at stationary targets isn't necessarily best resolved by OCV/DCV. Perhaps this is something better covered by PS: Solider.

I considered that, but then wondered about the consequences for setting a new precident for attacking a stationary target once combat starts and someone gets Entangled.