AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

[secretID]

1) Is this allowed?

2) If it is, is it necessary to do so, if that's basically what you're building? I ask b/c if you want a PC that's basically an AI, you get to sell back most characteristics if you start from a normal human template.

 

Thanks.

[Lemurion]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

Hero is a Universal Toolkit. If the GM allows a player to create an AI or Automaton PC then it's allowed. They would get to sell off most characteristics, but they would also have to buy all of the automaton powers as well. I rather think in the end it would be a wash.

 

That's the whole point of the system. Of course you can do it. It just may not be that good an idea once you've worked it out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

The rules are stated as being for NPC use, so by the book it's not allowed.

 

There's a thread on PC's using automaton powers which you may want to find through a board search.

 

As to just selling stats back instead, there's a difference in results. For example, an automaton has 0 Ego. Unlike a PC who sells his ego back to (or has his ego drained to) 0, however, the automaton is not required to make a 9- roll to take independent action.

[Asperion]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

As a GM I would say that a PC cannot be an AI/automaton/etc. This is because a PC needs to possess a freewill and these constructs cannot possess a freewill. The PC in question can sell back the unused characteristics but will not gain the advantages of these constructs. In essence what would happen would be say, for example, he sold his EGO down to 1 then an attacking mentalist or skills such as persuasion would have almost auto-success. To gain the total immunity that he would like as one of these constructs would be to buy the appropriate defense up rather high plus 75% Damage Reduction. As a GM if a player insisted on being one of these constructs then I would make them take the bad in addition to the good. This includes needing to make an EGO roll if he does not want to have every request treated as an order that MUST be followed literally. The possibility of independent action would never be possible.

[Kenn]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

There was a character in one of the later 4th Ed. "Enemies" books, the Yeoman, which was essentially a free-willed android. There's a character in my campaign that's also essentially a free-willed android. Characters like Red Tornado and the Vision, from the comics are also that type of character. However, such characters should be built as normal characters, with Powers to represent their mechanical forms.

 

An AI in a box, like say, ORAC, really should only be an NPC. Imagine the player's reaction when he realises no one picked up his character to take him along.

[secretID]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

The character in question:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47868

 

He's been a headache to build; I'm grateful for any suggestions. I think I'm just as happy not making the base character an AI or an automaton.

[ghost-angel]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

As the Special Effects of a PC to get some nifty Cyber Powers. Yes.

 

As the Mechanics outlined in chapter 4. No.

[GamePhil]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

1) Is this allowed?

 

Well, a quick look doesn't say that you can't, but it does say, under Automaton Powers (5ER p 458) that they are "unique to automatons; PC's cannot purchase them". That implies that PC's can't be automatons by the book.

 

Still, ask your GM, if you really think this is the right way to build the character.

 

 

2) If it is, is it necessary to do so, if that's basically what you're building? I ask b/c if you want a PC that's basically an AI, you get to sell back most characteristics if you start from a normal human template.

Thanks.

 

No, it is not necessary. Just as a damaging blast of energy may or may not be purchased with the Power, Energy Blast, your Artificial Intelligence may or may not be built with the Computer game mechanic, and your robot may or may not be built as an Automaton.

 

In fact, it's probably best not to take those. As has been said, they lack free will (though AI's can make an Ego roll to overcome this), so make hard to play and quite possibly uninteresting characters. That's part of the package. You're almost certainly better off designing it as a regular character if it's going to be a PC, with Disadvantages and abilities to make it into what you want.

 

The robot, for example, can certainly be a complete character with good Defenses, possibly Damage Reduction if it doesn't feel pain, and possibly Affected As Human And Machine Class Of Mind as a Disadvantage. The AI form might not be able to move on its own, but have vast calculating ability and think very fast indeed. And so on.

[Lucius]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

"Reason from effect"

 

Tell us what EXACTLY you're trying to do, and I'm sure you'll get a lot of help.

 

Now, first of all, a player character really can NOT be an Automaton. An automaton has no free will - it would be the next best thing to playing a vehicle or a piece of furniture. A player character should be able to make choices.

 

Now, whether or not a player character should take the Automaton POWERS is a seperate question. Technically, that is illegal. Arguably, it is unneccessary. If you want to do it anyway, bear in mind that it does NOT turn the character into an automaton!!

 

Further, there is no WAY you can turn your character into an AI just by "selling back" all your physical characteristics. That just turns you into a character with a lot of really pathetic physical traits.

 

The only way to become an AI (that I know of) and that is only if the Game Operations Director decides to allow you to do it, is to take a Multiform that turns you into one. If you want to be an AI permanently, maybe you can take a limitation on the Multiform of "never returns to 'base form.'"

 

As an AI, you'll be built as an AI - sorry, no extra points for "selling back" characteristics that AI's just don't have to begin with.

 

Okay, there is one other way - if someone else has a Transform that can turn your character into one.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if we should have provided some helpful links

[secretID]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

Well, since you asked...

 

The link I gave outlines the general character idea, and shows the thoughts of some others on it. I'll try to be more specific now, as I've thought it through a little more and made it something simpler - I think - from a design perspective.

 

Due to a fatal or seriously debilitating illness, Joe's body is gone or useless (I haven't completely decided that - I think that only really matters for disads). However, his entire consciousness has been digitized, i.e., a perfect copy of his brain exists on a hard drive. It can't be copied further, though - I didn't want a character with infinite cloning. Basically, he's a classic disembodied brain, except the brain in this case isn't organic matter.

 

Joe interacts with the world by controlling his base (and servos, etc. therein) and his automatons. However, he can only control one thing at a time. My present thinking is that the special effect for this will simply be the clumsy transfer of the hard drive from the base to droid, but if remote control works better for design, I'm flexible on that.

 

My present thinking is that from Joe's perspective, he has a base and followers, and from the base's and droids' perspectives, he will be the controlling AI when he is installed on each. For that reason, I'm thinking that he is simply a character with most characteristics bought back who has a base and followers.

 

I'm not sure if much else is really needed. Since he doesn't really change, but relocate, I'm not sure he needs anything else to create this effect. The base and the droids might need something to allow them to receive him as the controlling AI.

 

Depending on how many points he has left, Joe may have some other tech powers - cyberkinesis and a gadget VPP.

 

Thanks for the help.

[Lucius]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

Well, if you allow remote control, you are creating a very powerful character in terms of the fact that he can't be killed or really even stopped unless someone actually invades and destroys the base.

 

If the "black box" containing his consciousness has to be physically loaded into a robot for him to be in control of it, then when he, in robotic form, goes forth with his teammates (assuming he's on a team? or is this solo?) he's running something like the risk all the rest of them are. Maybe not quite as MUCH risk, but his continued personal existance IS on the line.

 

Now, I've personally played a character who was "immortal" although I used a different dodge than being "An AI with automatons." I'm sure there are ways to get the effect that I haven't even thought of. So if that's what you want, I'm hardly in a position to object; I just have to point out that you may want to consider the reactions of the other players (if any) and the ramifications for you if you're running the game.

 

It sounds like Multiform is the way to go. Build a base AI "module" that's part of all forms, one form is the Base itself (yes, it is possible to Multiform into a Base too - isn't Hero wonderful?!) and if I may make a suggestion, another form might be a vehicle controlled by the AI. You may have several mobile forms - vehicles and/or robots for different specialized functions.

 

I'd make sure, though, that each form pays the points for the others as "perks." That is, when he's "being the Base" he is not directly controlling the robots/vehicles, but they're still around and capable of executing whatever programs are built into them. Same for being in any of the other forms.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I shapechange into a palindromedary!

[Vestnik]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

 

It sounds like Multiform is the way to go. Build a base AI "module" that's part of all forms, one form is the Base itself (yes, it is possible to Multiform into a Base too - isn't Hero wonderful?!)

 

I always wondered how to build Fortress Lad.

[secretID]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

Well' date=' if you allow remote control, you are creating a very powerful character in terms of the fact that he can't be killed or really even stopped unless someone actually invades and destroys the base.[/quote']

That was my thinking of why to make him black box - makes him more human.

 

It sounds like Multiform is the way to go. Build a base AI "module" that's part of all forms, one form is the Base itself (yes, it is possible to Multiform into a Base too - isn't Hero wonderful?!) and if I may make a suggestion, another form might be a vehicle controlled by the AI. You may have several mobile forms - vehicles and/or robots for different specialized functions.

 

I'd make sure, though, that each form pays the points for the others as "perks." That is, when he's "being the Base" he is not directly controlling the robots/vehicles, but they're still around and capable of executing whatever programs are built into them. Same for being in any of the other forms.

I moved away from that because it started to seem like double-paying. A character could have an automaton perk and a bunch of powers. The automaton isn't going to be as smart as the character or in the character's absolute control, but it can function independently. In this case, each droid would have the character's full intelligence and skills, but would be entirely or mostly incapable of independent function.

 

The droids are really more like the example of the different configurations of powered armor, so it looks like an MF, but I didn't want to do that b/c the droids physically exist at all times, even if they're not capable of much.

 

One person in the thread I linked suggested that this would be MF with a lim from the fact that the inactive forms were vulnerable.

 

What do you think about the perspective I mentioned of him (the black box) just moving from place to place? Put another way, it actually as if the automatons are separate vehicles. Normally, you'd pay for multiple vehicles, but wouldn't pay anything to switch between vehicles (other than the obvious skills).

 

Incidentally, I was only thinking about 2-4 droids, so there wouldn't be this massive suite of droids adapted to cover any situation.

[Manic Typist]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

Can't you define the base form in a Multiform as "A.I.?"

[Markdoc]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

Multiform sounds like the way to go, with perhaps some limitations to cover transfer between forms.

 

In one you're a base Whether the base has robot followers or not depends on how much function they have without his input. If they just sit around waiting to have his consciousness transferred in, then you pay nothing. In this form you could well sell back plenty of characteristics

 

In another form he's a robot - with a base

 

But in neither of these forms is he technically an AI - he's just a character whose consciousness happens to be digital.

 

Simple, straightforward, etc

 

cheers, Mark

[Vestnik]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

Multiform sounds like the way to go, with perhaps some limitations to cover transfer between forms.

 

In one you're a base Whether the base has robot followers or not depends on how much function they have without his input. If they just sit around waiting to have his consciousness transferred in, then you pay nothing. In this form you could well sell back plenty of characteristics

 

cheers, Mark

 

In theory, could one buy one's power armor as a base? A really big suit of power armor.

[Jhamin]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

I generally discourage people from buying Auomations as characters. Not because of how powerful they are but because of how they distort the campaign.

 

I don't know about you, but I like my players' characters to occasionally go unconscious during a fight and sometimes even get captured. The problem with Automations is that they just keep going until they run out of body, then they die.

 

This means the only way to take a PC out of the action is to kill him, which sort of eliminates all the "you wake up in a deathtrap" sort of adventures. It is a valid character type, but not one I want in my game.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

I always wondered how to build Fortress Lad.

Ah, someone else who remembers... brings a tear to my eye, it does... [sniff]

[Lucius]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

I generally discourage people from buying Auomations as characters. Not because of how powerful they are but because of how they distort the campaign.

 

I don't know about you, but I like my players' characters to occasionally go unconscious during a fight and sometimes even get captured. The problem with Automations is that they just keep going until they run out of body, then they die.

 

Although I understand and can sympathize with what you are saying, I must point out that you are dangerously imprecise in expressing yourself.

 

First of all, it is not the case that an automaton may not be stunned or knocked out. If an automaton has not taken the power Takes No STUN, or the lesser Cannot Be Stunned, then it has a STUN characteristic and takes STUN damage and reacts in combat like any other character.

 

Second of all, you are not talking about an automaton. You are talking about a player character who has bought one or more of the Automaton Powers like Takes No STUN. Taking that or any other power does NOT turn the character into an automaton - but it does, as you point out, seriously impact the experience of the game, especially of combat.

 

Also, it is worth noting that even if you take Takes No STUN, you still have to "mark off" powers and abilities as they are disabled each time you take BODy damage - unless you buy it at the highest value, where as you say, you just keep going and going until you drop dead.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary adds that some of those powers - like Does Not Bleed or No Hit Locations - are not nearly as complex or unbalancing and should be freely available to player characters.

[secretID]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

I'm not planning on taking the full no stun power for the reason mentioned - too easy to be unreasonably tough, and simply less fun. As said before, I was avoiding remote control for similar reasons.

 

I started him anew as the MF, but ran into a problem with the vehicle mode which might come up in the base mode as well. I'm working with 150/100 base/disads. That means that the vehicle could only have 150 base, which is pretty limiting. I've messed around with building the vehicle as a regular character, but that gets pretty weird.

 

This brings me back to the base C just being an extremely physically limited guy (the black box) who owns the perks. The only thing I think he needs, then, is what I can only think of as a custom power - "can act as A.I.." That is, even though a PC can pilot a plane, and a plane can be piloted by an A.I., a PC couldn't pilot a plane as an A.I.

 

I'm thinking of that very specific power as 25 points at most. It is only theh ability to act as an A.I. for a receptive base, vehicle, or automaton - it doesn't include skills, etc., or the ability to take control of anything hostile. A related transform would cover that - i.e., the switch of the black in for the controlling computer of an unfamiliar base.

[Manic Typist]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

I think a lot of the rules that apply to normal characters and taking damage can still be made to apply to an A.I. character.

 

Starting simply: being Stunned- you freeze up for a second as your processors are disrupted by a large tramau, etc.

 

Endurance- how much energy your robot/ship construct can use, OR- how much energy you can expend before your microchips begin to overheat and you freeze up.

 

Bleeding- sparks in your inner workins start to fly, and you need an engineer to get in there quick and perform some emergency repairs or else you are going to end up as a pile of slag.

 

You just have to change the special effects, that's all.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

Speaking from the Fantasy HERO side, and the first thing I thought of when i read this was - "Can I have a PC who plays as an Undead?" Instant automaton! Most undead don't take STUN, although in HERO you would have to rule that any PC Undead would.

 

For example, in my now-defunct Ravenloft campaign, one of my PCs was turned into a Revanant. I really dug on that game and was sorry to see it go, because the concept was extremely cool. Anyway, under d20/3.5, once you're undead you have no CON score; you're immune to anything that requires a Fortitude Save (including Petrification, Death Attacks (you're dead already) and so on). It would seriously depend on the flavor of a HERO campaign, but I also think that of the two books that have been proposed recently, Horror HERO and Ultimate Automaton, that PC abilities and suggestions would be covered well in both texts.

[Lucius]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

I'm not planning on taking the full no stun power for the reason mentioned - too easy to be unreasonably tough, and simply less fun. As said before, I was avoiding remote control for similar reasons.

 

I started him anew as the MF, but ran into a problem with the vehicle mode which might come up in the base mode as well. I'm working with 150/100 base/disads. That means that the vehicle could only have 150 base, which is pretty limiting. I've messed around with building the vehicle as a regular character, but that gets pretty weird.

 

I'm afraid I'm not understanding you.

 

If you have a problem building a vehicle on 150 pts + disads, as a Multiform, won't you have the exact same problem building it as a perk? I don't have the book in front of me but I seem to recall that the "build something" perks (follower, base, etc.) all also limit you to the same campaign limits as the character, at least if you want the 1/5 cost break - beyond that point they cost 1/1, but isn't that also the exact same rule as for Multipower?

 

This brings me back to the base C just being an extremely physically limited guy (the black box) who owns the perks. The only thing I think he needs, then, is what I can only think of as a custom power - "can act as A.I.." That is, even though a PC can pilot a plane, and a plane can be piloted by an A.I., a PC couldn't pilot a plane as an A.I.

 

I'm thinking of that very specific power as 25 points at most. It is only theh ability to act as an A.I. for a receptive base, vehicle, or automaton - it doesn't include skills, etc., or the ability to take control of anything hostile. A related transform would cover that - i.e., the switch of the black in for the controlling computer of an unfamiliar base.

 

Okay, if you want to define the character as the "box" I think that works...but I don't understand this "AI power". Just what, exactly, does it allow him to do? Why is it needed? To overcome the physical disads that otherwise prevent him from piloting vehicles, or what?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Appearing as a follower on the palindromedary's character sheet

[secretID]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

[sorry about the lag - was on vacation.]

 

If you have a problem building a vehicle on 150 pts + disads' date=' as a Multiform, won't you have the exact same problem building it as a perk? I don't have the book in front of me but I seem to recall that the "build something" perks (follower, base, etc.) all also limit you to the same campaign limits as the character, at least if you want the 1/5 cost break - beyond that point they cost 1/1, but isn't that also the exact same rule as for Multipower?[/quote']

I have the unrevised 5E - unless it was changed, MP works differently than the perks. By my read, with the perks, you pay 1/5 BPs, as long as the CPs don't exceed the character's CPs. For MF, you pay 1/5 CPs, and no form can have more BPs than the character. It's something that often frustrates me about MF.

 

As applied here, with the perk you can get a 250 BP, 0 disad vehicle for 50points. With the MF, the vehicle could only have 150 BP, and there's no way to give it sufficient disads to make it work well.

 

Okay, if you want to define the character as the "box" I think that works...but I don't understand this "AI power". Just what, exactly, does it allow him to do? Why is it needed? To overcome the physical disads that otherwise prevent him from piloting vehicles, or what?

Sort of. If we stick with the vehicle analogy, picture a car that has no manual controls - it can only be computer controlled - and currently has no built in computer. No character, absent something special, could directly control it - at best, the character could build a computer control for it or could excercise some kind of mind control.

 

Building a separate computer is obviosly completely different than what Boxboy (actually, I think the character almost HAS to be named Hard Drive) does. Mind control is close, but even if we put on all the appropriate adjustments, it would actually make him the vehicle's AI - e.g., his ego wouldn't apply.

 

The other way to do it is with MF, with each form being an AI for one of the perks. Each form would only pay for the base, I guess, since no for could use another form, but it still seems like double-paying or simply overcomplicated. Actually, it might actually be cheaper, in a way, than the special power, b/c for an MF of 60 each AI form could have the same points as the base C, but fewer points in perks (b/c one automaton can't use another).

[ghost-angel]

Re: AIs, automatons, etc. as PCs

 

[sorry about the lag - was on vacation.]

 

 

I have the unrevised 5E - unless it was changed, MP works differently than the perks. By my read, with the perks, you pay 1/5 BPs, as long as the CPs don't exceed the character's CPs. For MF, you pay 1/5 CPs, and no form can have more BPs than the character. It's something that often frustrates me about MF.

 

As applied here, with the perk you can get a 250 BP, 0 disad vehicle for 50points. With the MF, the vehicle could only have 150 BP, and there's no way to give it sufficient disads to make it work well.

 

In Fifth Edition (all iterations of) Multiform is not capped in any way, you may have a 200 Pt Character with a 900 Pt Multiform.

 

The only restriction is that once you exceed your Base Characyer Points (say 200+150) you must come up with Disadvantages on the Multiform to cover the difference in Points.

 

With bases once you exceed the Character Points (200+150) you start to pay for the Base on a 1 for 1 basis (1 Character Point = 1 Base/Vehicle Point).

 

Multiform is always at 1 for 5.