New Advantage: Robust Immunity

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Still looking for a term other than "immunity"' date=' which sounds absolute. I can't think of one that's not already used in some other capactity, though.[/quote']

Fine, here's a list that isn't already used:

Impunity

Guard

Buffer

Screen

Absolution

 

I like Screen.

 

I've never seen PI as worth +1/4 in most cases' date=' and this further waters it down. I suppose the character's unlikely to be anything but immune absent a push/haymaker. Maybe even then as he'll still have his normal defenses.[/quote']

This is here for completeness since it is in the book and this rendition doesn't change it one bit. Just as you stated that if it is affected by Adjustment Powers, it is also affected by Push/Haymaker. Therefore, this rendition makes it impossible for the character to harm himself with his powers without outside influence, which I don't ever happening in my campaigns, so at best it would be extremely rare.

 

Again, does a 12d6 EB w/ RI reduce a 10d6 AP EB to 2d6 (based on damage classes) or eliminate it (based on dice). If the latter, attacks with other advantages become poor choices for RI.

 

Similarly, does it reduce an NND (heat stroke, for example) or AVLD (vs flash defense, say)? I assume so, as they're still EB's. It seems the KA is closer to the EB than an AVLD-Flash Defense.

Fine, I think you are being extremely picky about this, but I'll break it out as cumulative advantage.

 

I also still find it counterintuitive that this power would wipe out a 12d6 EB' date=' probably reduce a 15d6 or 16d6 blast to nothing after defenses, yet allow a 1d6 KA to pass right on through.[/quote']

However, there might be some oddball SFX out that fits this, so it ability to build it this way will stay, although separated as an additional advantage.

 

I'm unclear how this differs from Expanded. If anything' date=' it seems less potent, as an NND is not logically "normal damage".[/quote']

Expanded is still limited to a single power for those SFX that might call for such a restricted version. That is how it is different. See above for additional changes.

 

...Unless I'm missing something' date=' that's +3...[/quote']

Okay, you are just not happy with my numbers, fine, tell me what the maximum value you think it should be for Complete Defenses against a SFX?

 

I'll be reworking the structure to break things down into something more palatable to you.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

New version is done.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

You know, I've been wondering about something here...

 

In very broad, general terms... defenses usually cost about half of what the equivalent attack costs.

 

1d6 of EB costs 5 points, does an average of 3.5 Stun... rounds down to 3... which is close to half of 5, for example.

 

So... if you wanted immunity to all attacks like yours, not just yours (so not personal immunity, but something more like this "Robust Immunity"), you could spend (for example):

 

12d6 Energy Blast (SFX: Fire) for 60 points

 

45 ED, only vs. Fire (-1/2) for 30 points

 

Now, this isn't an absolute defense... the attack maxes out at 72 Stun, but the average roll is 42 Stun, which on average 45 ED should handle nicely.

 

If you want to make sure all of it gets handled, then bump it up to:

 

72 ED, Only vs. Fire (-1/2) for 48 points.

 

Now, looking for the moment at the Real cost of the defense... the first option, 45 ED vs. that special effect, is half the cost of the 60 point EB; in other words, add the cost of the EB and the defense together is 90 points, the same cost as if a +1/2 Advantage had been applied to the EB.

 

Looking at the Real cost for second option of full defense... 72 ED... the total cost for the EB and the defense is 108 points, about the same as if a +3/4 Advantage had been applied to the attack (that would work out to be 105 points intead of 108).

 

In other words, cost-wise, I see no reason why making it either a +1/2 Advantage or a +3/4 Advantage would be unreasonable, as it's about the same as buying the EB and the defense seperately.

 

The only real difference I can see is that buying them seperately, they have less chance of overtopping any campaign limits on Active Points, while doing it as an Advantage could easily make the cost of the EB exceed campaign limits on Active Points.

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

You know' date=' I've been wondering about something here...[/quote']

The big issue so far is being able to affect any attack power that thrown at the character and have the costs not be wonky. That's been the sticking point so far.

 

I think we are close to getting a working model.

 

BTW: How's that magic card coming along... (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

Screen

This advantage is applied to an attack and allows the character to reduce/negate the effect of similar attacks. This advantage can be purchased at varying levels to reflect different SFX. When the character is attacked and has the matching SFX, the number of dice the character has in the attack that the advantage is applied to is subtracted from the number of dice that is rolled from the incoming attack.

 

Example:

10d6 EB (Fire Blast) with Expanded Screen is attacked with a 12d6 EB (Fire Blast). Ten dice are removed before rolling the attack, thus the attack becomes a 2d6 attack.

 

Can't say I'm thrilled with "screen" but it lacks the absolute implications of Immune, so at least it's a working title.

 

Personal Screen

+1/4 Personal: Grants the character a screen to his own attacks that might affect him via Area Effect or Reflection.

 

Expanded Screen

+1/4 Expanded: Grants the character a screen to any attack that is the same Power and SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Expanded Screen will cause any Energy Blast (Fire) to be screened.

 

+1/4 Exotic: This cumulative modifier will cause the screen to affect the attack with advantages.

 

So for +3/4, I get to screen any EB, regardless of its advantages. Again, we have that disconnect that this means an AVLD - Flash Defense can be screened, but a Killing Attack cannot.

 

Robust Screen

+1/2 Non-Resistant: Grants the character a screen to any Attack Power vs Non-Resistant Defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Non-Resistant will screen any attack vs Non-Resistant defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

 

Does this include, say Adjustment and Mental powers (other than those which would act against Resistant Power/mental defense)?

 

+1/2 Resistant: Grants the character a screen to any Attack Power vs Resistant Defenses that is the same SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Non-Resistant will screen any attack vs Resistant defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

 

+1/4 Exotic: This cumulative modifier will cause the screen to affect any attack with advantages.

 

I assume these are intended to tag first KA's, and then KA's with advantages. I assume I would simply swap "resistant" and "non-resistant" in the descriptions if the base power were a killing attack.

 

Really dumb question - if my character has 10d6 Energy Blast with Expanded Screen (+1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), and he is struck by a non-AP EB, will the Screen have any effect, or does this first +1/2 level mean the attack which strikes him must have all the same advantages? I get the sense the character is meant to buy the added +1/4 to affect any attacks which vary from his own mechanical build. However, that being the case, won't the +1/2 level only screen attacks that also have the Expanded Screen advantage?

 

Looks like I'm now +2 3/4 to Screen all attacks. Assuming this is on an 8d6 EB, I'm paying 110 points to screen out up to 8d6 (more accurately, this should be 8 DC) of fire damage. I could buy a lot of "only vs fire" defenses for 110 points.

 

More to the point, I think this has to be viewed as an ancillary power. The character will still need normal defenses to avoid being crushed by attacks outside his SFX of choice. Spending 110 points on what amounts to a "flavour power" seems pretty high.

 

[i'll echo Zornwil's sentiment that it would be nice to see Gary chime in on the math.]

 

I'd be inclined to let a character purchase Damage Reduction to a special effect, rather than a defense type, and have that apply to all manifestations of that SFX, regardless of the defense they apply to. That would be 60 points for 3/4 damage reduction to all Fire Damage. It's not the same - lower power attacks will still get through, mid range attacks will have some impact (although the 8d6 screen, in a 12 DC game, still gets some damage through, depending on the character's other defenses), but it will have more impact on high end powers.

 

For that matter, I could simply allow the "desolid as invulnerability" construct for specific SFX, which would also be quite a bit cheaper (though laced with a liberal dose of handwavium).

 

No answer yet, so I'll ask it again. I still don't see the concept that this simulates better than defenses. Maybe I'd be better able to wrap my head around the mechanic if I understood the concept we were trying to emulate. You must have a reason for wanting the ability. Why not test it out in-game. If no one buys it, that indicates some combination of "it's unnecessary" and "it's overpriced". If it becomes universal, it's likely underpriced.

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

Can't say I'm thrilled with "screen" but it lacks the absolute implications of Immune' date=' so at least it's a working title.[/quote']

Well did you like any of the others?

 

More...

 

Insulator

Impedance

 

So for +3/4' date=' I get to screen any EB, regardless of its advantages. Again, we have that disconnect that this means an AVLD - Flash Defense can be screened, but a Killing Attack cannot.[/quote']

Yes. With Expanded you could also have a Screen vs Killing with Advantages and have a Normal Attack blow right through... horrors! (8^D)

 

That's called flexibility. Expanded is not for you, you need to go straight to Robust Screen directly, do not pass go. Please ignore Expanded, it's not for you, it's for everyone else. (8^D)

 

Does this include' date=' say Adjustment and Mental powers (other than those which would act against Resistant Power/mental defense)?[/quote']

If the Attack (regardless of nature) goes against Normal Defenses (PD/ED/PwrD/FD/MD) then it is screened. So yes.

 

I assume these are intended to tag first KA's' date=' and then KA's with advantages. I assume I would simply swap "resistant" and "non-resistant" in the descriptions if the base power were a killing attack.[/quote']

Correct.

 

Really dumb question - if my character has 10d6 Energy Blast with Expanded Screen (+1/2)' date=' Armor Piercing (+1/2), and he is struck by a non-AP EB, will the Screen have any effect, or does this first +1/2 level mean the attack which strikes him must have all the same advantages? I get the sense the character is meant to buy the added +1/4 to affect any attacks which vary from his own mechanical build. However, that being the case, won't the +1/2 level only screen attacks that also have the Expanded Screen advantage?[/quote']

Personal/Expanded/Robust are considered separate constructs as far as affecting each other. That's why Exotic is listed twice.

 

Once again...

Expanded is specifically a 1 to 1 matching of Power and SFX.

Robust is a straight matching of SFX only.

 

You want Robust for the concepts you have in mind. So you end up with a total of +1 1/4 for every conceivable attack possible that you can affect. A +1 will get you everything except for Exotic (NND, AVLD, etc...)

 

[i'll echo Zornwil's sentiment that it would be nice to see Gary chime in on the math.]

I wish he would. I'm not a number cruncher and it's tedious when I try to do so.

 

I'd be inclined to let a character purchase Damage Reduction to a special effect' date=' rather than a defense type, and have that apply to all manifestations of that SFX, regardless of the defense they apply to. That would be 60 points for 3/4 damage reduction to all Fire Damage. It's not the same - lower power attacks will still get through, mid range attacks will have some impact (although the 8d6 screen, in a 12 DC game, still gets some damage through, depending on the character's other defenses), but it will have more impact on high end powers.[/quote']

That's another way to do it, but it lacks the scaling effect that match the concept I initially posted about.

 

Concepts where the stronger the character is in his attack, he is stronger in defense of those types of attack. Damage Reduction doesn't meet this at all.

 

For that matter' date=' I could simply allow the "desolid as invulnerability" construct for specific SFX, which would also be quite a bit cheaper (though laced with a liberal dose of handwavium).[/quote']

No... must.. resist... rant... (8^D)

 

We aren't trying to emulate total invulnerablity here. I'll leave it at that.

 

No answer yet' date=' so I'll ask it again. I still don't see the concept that this simulates better than defenses. Maybe I'd be better able to wrap my head around the mechanic if I understood the concept we were trying to emulate. You must have a reason for wanting the ability. Why not test it out in-game. If no one buys it, that indicates some combination of "it's unnecessary" and "it's overpriced". If it becomes universal, it's likely underpriced.[/quote']

See above. If that's not specific enough for you to think of different SFX on your own, then any specific example I give you won't be enough. And that's perfectly fine.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

So for +3/4' date=' I get to screen any EB, regardless of its advantages. Again, we have that disconnect that this means an AVLD - Flash Defense can be screened, but a Killing Attack cannot.[/quote']

I decided to come back to this and give an actual concrete example of this type of effect.

 

Prism, my character, is made of some type of crystaline substance that is clear. He has the ability to collect normal light within himself and project it back out in a controlled manner.

 

Application:

It would make perfect sense that he could affect normal attack (EB) and reduce the damge done by those attacks, yet not be able to reduce the damage from a high intensity laser beam (Killing Attack). He would also not be able to affect Bullets or other SFX based EBs.

 

There you go. Although he wasn't built that way (I just thought of this application), I could easily see using the Expanded version to simulate this and later as his powers grew to include various types of attacks, using the Robust version.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

Screen

This advantage is applied to an attack and allows the character to reduce/negate the effect of similar attacks. This advantage can be purchased at varying levels to reflect different SFX. When the character is attacked and has the matching SFX, the number of dice the character has in the attack that the advantage is applied to is subtracted from the number of dice that is rolled from the incoming attack.

 

Example:

10d6 EB (Fire Blast) with Expanded Screen is attacked with a 12d6 EB (Fire Blast). Ten dice are removed before rolling the attack, thus the attack becomes a 2d6 attack.

 

Personal Screen

+1/4 Personal: Grants the character a screen to his own attacks that might affect him via Area Effect or Reflection.

 

Expanded Screen

+1/4 Expanded: Grants the character a screen to any attack that is the same Power and SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Expanded Screen will cause any Energy Blast (Fire) to be screened.

 

+1/4 Exotic: This cumulative modifier will cause the screen to affect the attack with advantages.

 

OK, if I read your comments correctly, these are all one advantage. PI is +1/4, add in Expanded and it's +1/2 and +3/4 adds advantages. I'm unclear WHICH advantages are affected by the Expanded Screen and which require Exotic, but I'm thinking Expanded applies to anything that works against PD/ED, with Exotic opening up advantages that change the defense.

 

Would Exotic work on a +3/4 AVLD to change the defense to Resistant Defenses, or does the character need to move to Robust in this regard?

 

Robust Screen

+1/2 Non-Resistant: Grants the character a screen to any Attack Power vs Non-Resistant Defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Non-Resistant will screen any attack vs Non-Resistant defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

 

+1/2 Resistant: Grants the character a screen to any Attack Power vs Resistant Defenses that is the same SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Non-Resistant will screen any attack vs Resistant defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

 

+1/4 Exotic: This cumulative modifier will cause the screen to affect any attack with advantages.

 

So I pay +1 1/4 (not +1 1/2 as I only buy Exotic once) to Screen all types of attacks with the same SFX. I'm still thinking I could buy a lot of limited defenses for the same points.

 

The linkage with attacks still seems to create some issues. If my character has a killing attack, can he buy RI only to normal attacks (or vice versa)? What if he wants to apply RI to a Flash, a Drain or a mental power? What if he's only able to screen a Flash, not a power defense or mental attack?

 

If I pay +3/4 for Enhanced Exotic, it seems Robust Exotic gives me more bang for my buck (all attacks vs normal defenses, vs only energy blasts). However, if the price of Enhanced Exotic is dropped to +1/2, then there's no difference between Enhanced (w/o exotic) and Personal immunity, where the latter is clearly broader than the former.

 

I remain confused by how advantages interact. if I have Enhanced on my 12d6 EB, and I get hit with a 10d6 AP attack, does nothing get through (10d6 - 12d6), or does 2d6 get through (15 DC - 12 DC)? The former's easier to run with, but provides a disincentive to advantaged attacks, especially if they will have Screen applied.

 

Overall, I continue to lean to buying the attack and the defenses separately. Why can't a Martial Artist, for example, have a Robust Screen?

 

Another pricing issue that comes from blending attacks and defenses. 12d6 EB costs 60 points. 12d6 EB fully Robust costs 135 points.

 

12d6 EB, No Knockback, costs 48 points (4 per die). 12d6 fully Robust, no BOD, costs 108 points. Its defensive capacity is unchanged, so I saved 27 points on the attack component, which costs 2.75 per die.

 

Make the RS power No Knockback (-1/4), Does no STUN (-3/4) and it costs 67 points, less than what the unlimited EB user paid to add RS to his EB.

 

Perhaps it would make more sense to price out Screen as its own separate power - you just buy dice at the same pace as you buy up your EB. But, again, it seems to just be defenses with some power modifiers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

Application:

It would make perfect sense that he could affect normal attack (EB) and reduce the damge done by those attacks, yet not be able to reduce the damage from a high intensity laser beam (Killing Attack). He would also not be able to affect Bullets or other SFX based EBs.

 

See, I get the SFX limit (bullets vs light), but I don't get the Laser KA vs Laser EB. A mirror reflects both. Why doesn't Prism?

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

OK' date=' if I read your comments correctly, these are all one advantage. PI is +1/4, add in Expanded and it's +1/2 and +3/4 adds advantages. I'm unclear WHICH advantages are affected by the Expanded Screen and which require Exotic, but I'm thinking Expanded applies to anything that works against PD/ED, with Exotic opening up advantages that change the defense.[/quote']

Okay, let me explain it this way.

 

Only the advantages under the Personal Screen section is stackable. There's only one, so that should be simple.

 

Only the advantages under the Expanded Screen section is stackable. There's only two so that should be simple.

 

Only the advantages under the Robust Screen section is stackable. There's three so we can have six combinations.

 

Non-Resistant [+1/2]

Non-Resistant, Exotic [+3/4]

Resistant [+1/2]

Resistant, Exotic [+3/4]

Non-Resistant, Resistant [+1]

Non-Resistant, Resistant, Exotic [+1 1/4]

 

So I pay +1 1/4 (not +1 1/2 as I only buy Exotic once) to Screen all types of attacks with the same SFX. I'm still thinking I could buy a lot of limited defenses for the same points.

Trust me. With these values, you'll end up spending more. Any cheaper and I might consider putting a Caution or Stop sign on the Advantage.

 

The linkage with attacks still seems to create some issues. If my character has a killing attack' date=' can he buy RI only to normal attacks (or vice versa)?[/quote']

Yes. But are we reasoning from special effects now or just trying to muchkn points?

 

What if he wants to apply RI to a Flash' date=' a Drain or a mental power?[/quote']

Yes, yes, yes.

 

What if he's only able to screen a Flash' date=' not a power defense or mental attack?[/quote']

Either use Exanded Screen or apply a Custom Limitation to the power.

 

If I pay +3/4 for Enhanced Exotic' date=' it seems Robust Exotic gives me more bang for my buck (all attacks vs normal defenses, vs only energy blasts). However, if the price of Enhanced Exotic is dropped to +1/2, then there's no difference between Enhanced (w/o exotic) and Personal immunity, where the latter is clearly broader than the former.[/quote']

See above

 

Another pricing issue that comes from blending attacks and defenses. 12d6 EB costs 60 points. 12d6 EB fully Robust costs 135 points.

Yes, but you are getting 72 Points Super Defense to a SFX at that level.

 

I already gave one breakdown of costs comparison. It'll take a while for me to give you another one.

 

Perhaps it would make more sense to price out Screen as its own separate power - you just buy dice at the same pace as you buy up your EB. But' date=' again, it seems to just be defenses with some power modifiers.[/quote']

Once again, there is already another that explores just that kind of mechanic. If that is all I was doing, I'd be posting there.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

Okay, let me explain it this way.

 

Only the advantages under the Personal Screen section is stackable. There's only one, so that should be simple.

 

Only the advantages under the Expanded Screen section is stackable. There's only two so that should be simple.

 

So I pay +1/4 for personal immunity, or +1/4 for a screen against all attacks of the same mechanical type and SFX. Shouldn't the ability with broader application cost more than the narrower appplication? Perhaps the answer is to replace Personal immunity under this system, such that the character would buy +1/4 Screen and be done with it.

 

Only the advantages under the Robust Screen section is stackable. There's three so we can have six combinations.

 

Non-Resistant [+1/2]

Non-Resistant, Exotic [+3/4]

Resistant [+1/2]

Resistant, Exotic [+3/4]

Non-Resistant, Resistant [+1]

Non-Resistant, Resistant, Exotic [+1 1/4]

 

 

Trust me. With these values, you'll end up spending more. Any cheaper and I might consider putting a Caution or Stop sign on the Advantage.

 

I'd run it to playtesting. It bears repeating that my bias is that "Defense only vs X SFX" is overpriced with only a -1/2 limitation to begin with, so I may have some blinders on regarding these costs, but I would not pay 75 points to remove 12DC from all fire attacks.

 

Yes. But are we reasoning from special effects now or just trying to muchkn points?

 

As noted previously, I'm not seeing any SFX that could not be handled by buying defenses. That said, if there's SFX that cry out for the Screen concept to begin with, there's likely one that screams for the ability to Screen attacks you don't possess.

 

Yes' date=' but you are getting 72 Points Super Defense to a SFX at that level.[/quote']

 

It's only 72 points 1 time in 2,176,782,336 rolls. 72 points will eliminate all BOD damage from a 36d6 attack, and a typical 70d6 attack. This won't. 72 defenses will wipe out all damage from most EB's 18d6 and under *average roll 4 or less). This won't.

 

By the way, to repeat, I am still unclear whether this offsets DICE or DAMAGE CLASSES. If I have a 10d6 EB which is Screened to extend to Drains, does it Screen out 5d6 of Drain or 10d6? To me, balance requires the former (ie screening DC's). You didn't answer this question in my last post, which gets at the same issue:

 

I remain confused by how advantages interact. if I have Enhanced on my 12d6 EB' date=' and I get hit with a 10d6 AP attack, does nothing get through (10d6 - 12d6), or does 2d6 get through (15 DC - 12 DC)? The former's easier to run with, but provides a disincentive to advantaged attacks, especially if they will have Screen applied.)[/quote']

 

Overall, I still don't see a need for this ability. However, I think you've worked out the kinks you want to work out - I'd move it to playtesting.

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

It's only 72 points 1 time in 2' date='176,782,336 rolls. 72 points will eliminate all BOD damage from a 36d6 attack, and a typical 70d6 attack. This won't. 72 defenses will wipe out all damage from most EB's 18d6 and under *average roll 4 or less). This won't.[/quote']

Aha! This is where we have the disconnect. (8^D)

Remember, my method uses the "Subtract Dice To Roll" to obtain the effect.

Therefore, 12d6 will wipe out exactly 72 Points of Damage, every single time.

 

Therefore, 18d6 will actually roll 6d6 and that gets applied to any normal defenses the character has. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

 

You seem to think that this is a "replacement" for defenses. It's not! It's in addition to defenses.

 

By the way' date=' to repeat, I am still unclear whether this offsets DICE or DAMAGE CLASSES. If I have a 10d6 EB which is Screened to extend to Drains, does it Screen out 5d6 of Drain or 10d6? To me, balance requires the former (ie screening DC's). You didn't answer this question in my last post, which gets at the same issue:[/quote']

It's always, repeat, always been subtraction of Dice. That's why I had to restructure it so many times in order to keep that simplicity.

 

Overall' date=' I still don't see a need for this ability. However, I think you've worked out the kinks you want to work out - I'd move it to playtesting.[/quote']

Yes, I figured you wouldn't want to use it. But as an addition to the orthodox defenses, it makes some concepts much easier during building and experience spending.

 

I do appreciate the time you took to at least try to evaluate it. Perhaps if you tried it out yourself, you might actually like it, who knows? (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Screen

This advantage is applied to an attack and allows the character to reduce/negate the effect of similar attacks. This advantage can be purchased at varying levels to reflect different SFX. When the character is attacked and has the matching SFX, the number of dice the character has in the attack that the advantage is applied to is subtracted from the number of dice that is rolled from the incoming attack.

 

Example:

10d6 EB (Fire Blast) with Expanded Screen is attacked with a 12d6 EB (Fire Blast). Ten dice are removed before rolling the attack, thus the attack becomes a 2d6 attack.

 

Personal Screen

+1/4 Personal: Grants the character a screen to his own attacks that might affect him via Area Effect or Reflection.

 

Expanded Screen

+1/4 Expanded: Grants the character a screen to any attack that is the same Power and SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Expanded Screen will cause any Energy Blast (Fire) to be screened.

 

+1/4 Exotic: This cumulative modifier will cause the screen to affect the attack with advantages.

 

Robust Screen

+1/2 Non-Resistant: Grants the character a screen to any Attack Power vs Non-Resistant Defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Non-Resistant will screen any attack vs Non-Resistant defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

 

+1/2 Resistant: Grants the character a screen to any Attack Power vs Resistant Defenses that is the same SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Non-Resistant will screen any attack vs Resistant defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

 

+1/4 Exotic: This cumulative modifier will cause the screen to affect any attack with advantages.

 

For Easy Reference

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

By the way' date=' to repeat, I am still unclear whether this offsets DICE or DAMAGE CLASSES. If I have a 10d6 EB which is Screened to extend to Drains, does it Screen out 5d6 of Drain or 10d6? To me, balance requires the former (ie screening DC's). You didn't answer this question in my last post, which gets at the same issue:[/quote']

I wanted to address a specific issue here separately.

Oddly enough, when I ran different SFX ideas through this advantage, I found out that the SFX will generally balance this out regardless of different types of attacks.

 

Example 1: (Pay close attention because this even shocked me)

SFX - Fire Control Man: Has the ability to create and control fire near him. Since his main attack is going to be Fire damage, he largest/main attack power will be either an EB or KA. Let's EB for simplicity and since it's the most common. He applies the advantage to his 10d6 EB (Fire).

 

Now here comes the crucial questions:

How many Fire Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be EBs?

How many Fire Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be KAs?

How many Fire Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Adjustment Powers?

How many Fire Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Sensory Based?

How many Fire Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Exotic Attacks?

 

Obviously I was worried about the different cost of dice, especially the Adjustment Powers, since they are way undercosted anyway (Just My Opinion).

 

Example 2:

SFX - Unchanging Man: Has the ability alter others abilities and resist alterations to himself. So his largest/main attack will be Dispel (Alter: 3 Pts Per 1d6) and applies the advantage to it.

 

How many Alter Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be EBs?

How many Alter Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be KAs?

How many Alter Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Adjustment Powers?

How many Alter Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Sensory Based?

How many Alter Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Exotic Attacks?

 

Oddly enough...

Fire Man pays more, but gets more utility...

Alter Man pays less, but gets less utility...

 

Weird Huh?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

I wanted to address a specific issue here separately.

Oddly enough, when I ran different SFX ideas through this advantage, I found out that the SFX will generally balance this out regardless of different types of attacks.

 

Example 1: (Pay close attention because this even shocked me)

SFX - Fire Control Man: Has the ability to create and control fire near him. Since his main attack is going to be Fire damage, he largest/main attack power will be either an EB or KA. Let's EB for simplicity and since it's the most common. He applies the advantage to his 10d6 EB (Fire).

 

Now here comes the crucial questions:

How many Fire Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be EBs?

How many Fire Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be KAs?

How many Fire Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Adjustment Powers?

How many Fire Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Sensory Based?

How many Fire Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Exotic Attacks?

 

Obviously I was worried about the different cost of dice, especially the Adjustment Powers, since they are way undercosted anyway (Just My Opinion).

 

Example 2:

SFX - Unchanging Man: Has the ability alter others abilities and resist alterations to himself. So his largest/main attack will be Dispel (Alter: 3 Pts Per 1d6) and applies the advantage to it.

 

How many Alter Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be EBs?

How many Alter Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be KAs?

How many Alter Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Adjustment Powers?

How many Alter Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Sensory Based?

How many Alter Based Attacks vs Fire Control Man are going to be Exotic Attacks?

 

Oddly enough...

Fire Man pays more, but gets more utility...

Alter Man pays less, but gets less utility...

 

Weird Huh?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

What if Alter Man's main attack is a Transfer (15 points per die) instead of a Dispel?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

Aha! This is where we have the disconnect. (8^D)

Remember, my method uses the "Subtract Dice To Roll" to obtain the effect.

Therefore, 12d6 will wipe out exactly 72 Points of Damage, every single time.

 

Therefore, 18d6 will actually roll 6d6 and that gets applied to any normal defenses the character has. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

 

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that 12 dice is not 72 points. It's 12-72 points, with an average of 42.

 

It's always' date=' repeat, always been subtraction of Dice. That's why I had to restructure it so many times in order to keep that simplicity.[/quote']

 

And oh so unbalanced. Fire Character #1 placing this on his Dispel Fire Powers gets to base his cost on a 3 point per die base. Fire Character #2, placing his on his KA, gets 20% as many dice as Fire Character #1 for the same cost.

 

Yes' date=' I figured you wouldn't want to use it. But as an addition to the orthodox defenses, it makes some concepts much easier during building and experience spending.[/quote']

 

Is this ease and simplicity the reason we have 5 pages of discussion on the ability, and I still likely don't get how it works? Personal Immunity (subtract my dice from the one attack which I generated myself) is still the same cost as Expanded Screen (subtract my dice from all simialr attacks (same mechanic and SFX)). Is that appropriate?

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

What if Alter Man's main attack is a Transfer (15 points per die) instead of a Dispel?

I can't help it if Adjustment Powers are unbalanced and their costs inconsistent with each other. I've already explored a possible for fix for that in another thread.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that 12 dice is not 72 points. It's 12-72 points' date=' with an average of 42.[/quote']

If we are removing the dice completely, then there is no average to consider. The maximum possible that could be rolled is what was removed as a possiblity, regardless of how small. Now you can compare the average of what dice are left and use that.

 

And oh so unbalanced. Fire Character #1 placing this on his Dispel Fire Powers gets to base his cost on a 3 point per die base. Fire Character #2' date=' placing his on his KA, gets 20% as many dice as Fire Character #1 for the same cost.[/quote']

Aha! Muchkining. Yes, this can be munchkined just like Succor, NND, and Desolidification.

 

If you as a GM allow a player to create a power without "reasoning from effect", you will certainly get this kind of problem.

 

And just what kind of reasoning would a player have to explain why a Fire SFX is causing a Dispel of other powers? Not going to happen in my game. (8^D)

 

See, I told you to pay close attention. That's what I meant by the SFX actually balancing things out. I said it was weird didn't I? (8^D)

 

Maybe you're not getting the gist of how this Advantage is supposed to be used. It is to be applied on the power that is the central theme of the character's SFX. This means that it should go on the most used and highest purchased power. That's the whole point. The character has so much control over the SFX (he's using this power all the time or more than any other), that he can actually reduce the damage of attacks against him that have the same SFX.

 

Hope this helps clear things up.

 

Is this ease and simplicity the reason we have 5 pages of discussion on the ability' date=' and I still likely don't get how it works?[/quote']

Obviously not.

 

I'm fairly certain that Zornwil understood this idea from the get go. He hasn't posted since he's been very busy lately. So I've got one person so far that is having a hard time grasping the idea. Hey, it happens. No big deal. There have been times it's taken me over 50 posts from various people in order for me to understand what they were getting at.

 

Personal Immunity (subtract my dice from the one attack which I generated myself) is still the same cost as Expanded Screen (subtract my dice from all simialr attacks (same mechanic and SFX)). Is that appropriate?

Okay, take a deep breath...

You're the one that insisted the costs were two much. I finally made Personal Screen and Expanded Screen start out the same because the book also allows it via GM option. Based on you comments, you will never use Personal Immunity (book) since it is too expensive, which I presume would be the same for Personal Screen. You've also said you think Expanded is basically useless since it doesn't allow you to affect different type powers. So you won't use them anyway.

 

I am satisfied with those mechanics as I've described them. If you have something specific that you think is wrong with them mechanically (besides cost), please point them out and I will check them over.

 

If your only concern is the costs in relation to each one, again, they are that way due to your suggestions, not my initial idea.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I can't help it if Adjustment Powers are unbalanced and their costs inconsistent with each other. I've already explored a possible for fix for that in another thread.

 

This issue arises because you are linking the cost of this defense directly to the cost of an attack. It is hardly restricted to adjustment powers. It could arise due to the difference between:

 

- a Killing Attack and an Energy Blast

- an Ego Blast and Mind Control

- a Sight Flash and a Hearing Flash

- Strength and Telekinesis

 

A similar issue arises when a limitation is applied to the attack, since this reduces the cost of both the defensive and offensive capabilities of the attack, but may well only hinder one or the other. Reduced Penetration, no Knockback, Does no Stun, Reduced Stun Multiple, etc. will all reduce the cost of the full advantaged power, yet will not reduce the efficiency of its defensive component.

 

Another point raised and ignored in posts past.

 

If we are removing the dice completely' date=' then there is no average to consider. The maximum possible that could be rolled is what was removed as a possiblity, regardless of how small. Now you can compare the average of what dice are left and use that.[/quote']

 

Well, I guess we should be using 120 points of defense as our comparative for a 12DC attack, then. After all, my opponent may hit me with a 4d6 KA instead of a 12d6 EB.

 

Or did that 12d6 EB with full Robust Immunity subtract 12d6 regardless of the attack, so I should be assuming a 12d6 KA with +95 Stun Multiple - that's 7,200 STUN. Highly unlikely it would roll 13 6's, and even less likely anyone would actually have this powe, but

The maximum possible that could be rolled is what was removed as a possiblity' date=' regardless of how small. [/quote']

 

Aha! Muchkining. Yes, this can be munchkined just like Succor, NND, and Desolidification.

 

If you as a GM allow a player to create a power without "reasoning from effect", you will certainly get this kind of problem.

 

And just what kind of reasoning would a player have to explain why a Fire SFX is causing a Dispel of other powers? Not going to happen in my game. (8^D)

 

Robust Screen effectively requires a power of one SFX to Suppress offensive powers of other SFX. If there is no reasonable basis for such an effect, then the entire Robust Screen concept should never be used, and consequently is a waste of time. I find reasoning that would say "one mechanical attack for is affected, but no others are" to be equally unlikely, which renders Expanded Screen a further concept which would never be used. As I've said all along, I don't see the concept you are trying to capture here.

 

The Screen concept appears, at first blush, designed to simplify defenses agaisnt specific SFX attacks, which seems a worthwhile concept to address. In executing the concept by reference to mechanics (EB vs killing Attack vs Adjustment Power), rather than by reference to special effects, I think that the Screen mechanic becomes inherently flawed. In my view, a defense against specific SFX would be a superior model for the character who is highly resistant to abilities of his own SFX.

 

Yes, this means the player must construct two abilities, and will have to remember to buy up both his attacks and defenses in lockstep if his vision of the character including such abilities moving in lockstep. That's not a big deal, in my view. The same character may well have fire-powered Flight which should also increase in lockstep with his fire-powered EB - do we need a "Attack that allows movement" advantage as well?

 

Maybe you're not getting the gist of how this Advantage is supposed to be used. It is to be applied on the power that is the central theme of the character's SFX. This means that it should go on the most used and highest purchased power. That's the whole point. The character has so much control over the SFX (he's using this power all the time or more than any other)' date=' that he can actually reduce the damage of attacks against him that have the same SFX.[/quote']

 

How is an EB any more central to a character's SFX than a KA or a Dispel? Perhaps, as an example, our fire-using character has a deep-seated aversion to people being harmed by flame. Perhaps he is a fireman who was altered in some way, and now uses his powers as a Super-Fireman, where his most used "offensive" power by far is his ability to dispel (or suppress) fires - this is central to his theme - notwithstanding the fact his FireBolt KA is his most powerful attack power, and sees the most use in combat, and thus the most use in superheroic activity focused on by the campaign.

 

Hope this helps clear things up.

 

Obviously not.

 

Ironic that they show up in this order, although I know they are separate replies to separate issues...

 

I'm fairly certain that Zornwil understood this idea from the get go. He hasn't posted since he's been very busy lately. So I've got one person so far that is having a hard time grasping the idea. Hey' date=' it happens. No big deal. There have been times it's taken me over 50 posts from various people in order for me to understand what they were getting at.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure what to attribute the dearth of other posters to. Perhaps you are receiving hundreds of pmails patting you on the back for putting up with the dullard who cannot comprehend the brillaint insights of your suggestion. However, if your in box is not stuffed, perhaps, just perhaps, few or no other posters perceive a compelling need for this construct you propose, and therefore most are not following the thread at all. Maybe there's a lurker or two around who would care to comment on their views on the matter.

 

Okay, take a deep breath...

You're the one that insisted the costs were two much. I finally made Personal Screen and Expanded Screen start out the same because the book also allows it via GM option.

 

In my view, the book allows it for SFX that are far closer than simply "it's fire-based". I don't believe anyone is running a game where a Fire EB with PI means the character is immune to firebolts. I suspect it is far more likely that GM's are running games where two brothers whose attacks are both advantaged with PI, but whose SFX differ in some way (say, one with ruby red eye beams and the other with plasma energy bursts, as an example) are immune to each other's attacks - mechanic notwithstanding - but to no one else's attacks.

 

Based on you comments' date=' you will never use Personal Immunity (book) since it is too expensive, which I presume would be the same for Personal Screen. You've also said you think Expanded is basically useless since it doesn't allow you to affect different type powers. So you won't use them anyway.[/quote']

 

"Never" is a very absolute word. Where I see PI being useful is for area effect constructs which should not impact the user. In addition to the obvious attacks with Area Effect advantages, this includes Change Environment and Darkness.

 

However, I also think "Immune/resistant to my own attacks" is considerably less potent than "Immune/resistant to all attacks applying the same SFX to the same mechanic". You have made them cost the same in your builds.

 

I would be inclined, were I inclined to adopt such a mechanism at all, to start with "Immune/resistant to own attacks - +1/4" as a baseline, and expand outwards from there. As an example, and without considering the appropriateness of the costs at this point, perhaps that would be:

 

"Resistant to attacks of a single SFX which affect one defense" +1/2. [This might be a fireweilder who is unusually resistant to fire/heat, but might also be a fireweilder unusually resistant to cold due to the heat he generates; you would effectively incorporate resistance to your own attack if it uses the same defense and the same SFX]

 

"Resistant to attacks of the same SFX which affect any defense" - say +1, and we are now resistant to these attacks whether they affect PD, ED, PowD, MenD or FlD, and even to NND's. I'd go so far as to say this is an automatic addition to the conditions under which the NND does no damage.

 

Add SFX using the same rationale as presently applied for adjustment powers and proceed. For +1/4, our FireWeilder can be immune to both fire/heat and cold/ice. For +2, all SFX are resisted.

 

There are issues, of course. Not all SFX are created equal - Fire and Sonics are not encountered with the same frequency. We may not agree on what one SFX is - are fire/heat and ice/cold 2 SFX, or four? But it provides a rational start where each enhancement of the ability carries an enhanced cost.

 

That's a total +3 advantage for full screening, so very expensive, but maybe not expensive enough. The 180 point cost (applied to a 60 point attack) would only buy 3/4 Damage Reduction to three defense types, far less utility. That implies the scaling should, perhaps, be higher. Maybe double the cost for multiple SFX - now we get +5 for all defenses and all SFX, so it costs 300 (75% DamRed for all five defense types, or 40 rDEF for each defense type). That feels like a decent benchmark - no one at 350 points can afford full resistance under any of the three approaches

 

But basing it on an advantage bothers me in any case, since it varies the cost with the limitations on the attack (potentially the advantages as well if we subtract dice instead of DC's).

 

With 300 for all defense types equating to about 40 rDEF, or about 12 DC's, 12 DC's of one defense type would reasonably cost 60. Subtracting 1 DC from all attacks of a specific defense type would cost 5.

 

it's also 25 points per DC reduction for all attacks. If we made that only vs a single SFX, I'd be inclined to call it somewhere between 2 (rare SFX) and 5 (very common SFX). That's more than most limitations, but SFX and mechanics have a mix - few apply readily to all five defense types, for example. So that's 2 points for 1 SFX Defense for a rare SFX, 3 for an uncommon SFX, 4 for a common SFX and 5 for a very common SFX (bit more ganular than a Vulnerability). 1 SFX Defense takes a full DC off every attack of that SFX. Reducing that to a real defense (ie 1 point subtracts one from the effect of the attack) would divide by between 3.5 and 4 (average to a bit above average on 1d6), so say:

 

- rare SFX: 2 SFX Def for 1 point

- uncommon SFX: 4 SFX Def for 3 points

- common SFX: 1 SFX DEF per point

- Very Common SFX: 2 SFX DEF for 5 points

 

Again, shooting from the hip - only actual playtesting will show these as appropriately valued or not. Note that recreating this using "only vs X SFX" will always be more expensive because the discount for specific SFX is not adequate in games with many SFX.

 

There may even be a category of "Omnipresent SFX" which should be more expensive, such as "Magic" in a fantasy game.

 

I am satisfied with those mechanics as I've described them. If you have something specific that you think is wrong with them mechanically (besides cost)' date=' please point them out and I will check them over.[/quote']

 

One fix to cost is changing the mechanic. Subtraction of dice, rather than DC, is a mechanical imbalance in my view. However, that's because I believe the same defense should have the same cost. Making this an advantage on an attack power is also, in my view, a fundamental mechanical mistake. It's a separate ability, and should be purchased (and costed) separately.

 

However, I do believe the cost of reducing an attack by 1 DC should be more than the cost of defenses that would resist the average result of that DC (eg. removing 1d6 from any normal energy blast should cost more than 3.5 points) but less than the cost of resisting the maximum result of that DC (eg. removing 1d6 from any normal energy blast should cost less than 6 points).

 

Comparison for normal attracks is comparatively easy. Comparison for exotics is tougher. Do you base Mental on 1d6 per 10 points (Ego Blast) or 1d6 per 5 points (Mind Control)? The former will leave a lot of the other powers leaking substantial results through, and the latter will neutralize Ego Blasts entirely. Adjustment powers have an even wider range.

 

While I continue to see no real need for the mechanic, the ability to subtract DC's rather than points of damage could be useful in some genre or games. If a reasonably balanced costing structure could be worked out, it might be a worthwhile addition to the mechanics.

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

...

Not bothering to address this section by section since most of it is rehashing the same thing over and over again.

 

Summary:

I started out with idea which had three levels...

 

Personal Screen: Exact Power and SFX [Own Powers Only]

Expanded Screen: Exact Power and SFX

Robust Screen: Any Power but same SFX

 

You pointed out that unbalancing nature of Robust Screen since different powers cost different for each 1d6. I agreed and scaled back the two levels which preserved balance perfectly.

 

Personal Screen: Exact Power and SFX [Own Powers Only]

Robust Screen: Same Power (includes advantages) and SFX.

 

I'm perfectly happy with this one, since balance is preserved regardless of different powers. I state it is too complex to be converting DC during game play.

 

You aren't happy at all and say it is pretty much useless. You want a single advantage that spans different types of powers. I say "fine" and restructure once again in order to maybe find something you might say is functional.

 

We end up with:

 

Personal Screen: Exact Power and SFX [Own Powers Only]

Expanded Screen: Exact Power [matching advantages only] and SFX. Exotic Modifer [All Advantages that don't match]

Robust Screen: 6 Combinations of Advantages for Non-Resistant, Resistant, and Exotic. Must match SFX.

 

I point out that this is like any other Power/Advantage/Limitation that can be easily abused. So I am satisfied that this is functional, although it must be watched due to possible balance problems like any other mechanic with a caution/stop sign.

 

I liked the previous one better since it retained perfect balance. The fact that it might be more expensive to obtain much greater simplicity isn't a big issue with me.

 

You're still not happy. What can I say. Oh well. I tried.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Screen

This advantage is applied to an attack and allows the character to reduce/negate the effect of similar attacks. This advantage can be purchased at varying levels to reflect different SFX. When the character is attacked and has the matching SFX, the number of dice the character has in the attack that the advantage is applied to is subtracted from the number of dice that is rolled from the incoming attack.

 

Example:

10d6 EB (Fire Blast) with Expanded Screen is attacked with a 12d6 EB (Fire Blast). Ten dice are removed before rolling the attack, thus the attack becomes a 2d6 attack.

 

Robust Screen

Single Power [+1/4]:

This allows you use an attack to be used as a subtractor from an attack that is the same Power and SFX. If this Power has Advantages, then any Attack Power with/without those Advantages may be affected. If the Attack Power has Advantages that this power does not have, then the Attack Power is unaffected.

 

Any Power [Varies]:

This allows you use an attack to be used as a subtractor from any attack that has the same SFX. If this Power has Advantages, then any Attack Power with/without those Advantages may be affected. If the Attack Power has Advantages that this power does not have, then the Attack Power is unaffected.

5 Per 1d6 [+3/4]: Affects any attack.

10 Per 1d6 [+1/2]: Affects any attack.

15 Per 1d6 [+1/4]: Affects any attack.

 

Modfiers

Own Powers Only [-1/4]: Affects character's own powers only.

Exotic [+1/4]: Includes any advantages that power doesn't have.

 

That's as close as I can get to what you want.

 

These are culmulative so you get:

Single Power [+1/4]

Single Power, Exotic [+1/2]

5 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power [+1]

10 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power [+3/4]

15 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power [+1/2]

5 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power, Exotic [+1 1/4]

10 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power, Exotic [+1]

15 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power, Exotic [+3/4]

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Screen

This advantage is applied to an attack and allows the character to reduce/negate the effect of similar attacks. This advantage can be purchased at varying levels to reflect different SFX. When the character is attacked and has the matching SFX, the number of dice the character has in the attack that the advantage is applied to is subtracted from the number of dice that is rolled from the incoming attack.

 

Example:

10d6 EB (Fire Blast) with Expanded Screen is attacked with a 12d6 EB (Fire Blast). Ten dice are removed before rolling the attack, thus the attack becomes a 2d6 attack.

 

Robust Screen

Single Power [+1/4]:

This allows you use an attack to be used as a subtractor from an attack that is the same Power and SFX. If this Power has Advantages, then any Attack Power with/without those Advantages may be affected. If the Attack Power has Advantages that this power does not have, then the Attack Power is unaffected.

 

Any Power [Varies]:

This allows you use an attack to be used as a subtractor from any attack that has the same SFX. If this Power has Advantages, then any Attack Power with/without those Advantages may be affected. If the Attack Power has Advantages that this power does not have, then the Attack Power is unaffected.

5 Per 1d6 [+3/4]: Affects any attack.

10 Per 1d6 [+1/2]: Affects any attack.

15 Per 1d6 [+1/4]: Affects any attack.

 

Modfiers

Own Powers Only [-1/4]: Affects character's own powers only.

Exotic [+1/4]: Includes any advantages that power doesn't have.

 

That's as close as I can get to what you want.

 

These are culmulative so you get:

Single Power [+1/4]

Single Power, Exotic [+1/2]

5 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power [+1]

10 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power [+3/4]

15 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power [+1/2]

5 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power, Exotic [+1 1/4]

10 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power, Exotic [+1]

15 Per 1d6 Power, Any Power, Exotic [+3/4]

 

I'll keep commenting, but I wonder whether the combination of my lack of desire for the concept and your marriage to it are limiting the productivity. Still, you keep trying for a structure I'll say "WOW - THAT'S GREAT" to, and I keep trying to get you to see the problem with dice rather than DC's.

 

You are missing an advantage for 3 per 1d6 powers. From the progression, I assume it would be +1 1/2.

 

As well, the possibility of affecting multiple SFX is still missing, such as the fire character who is resistant to cold, as well as heat. A character who is resistant to attacks outside, but not inside, his own SFX is also impossible to duplicate. One example of such a character is Killer Frost. While possessing cold powers, she is resistent to heat damage (which strengthens her) and, if anything, more vulnerable to cold than to other forms of attack.

 

If this were implemented, I would expect to see it taken exclusively, or nearly so, on 3 or 5 point per d6 attacks.

 

If it were broadly utilized, I would expect to see attacks based on anything greater than 5 points per d6 (whether base or through advantages) dwindle away, although I suppose the SFX issue would constrain that result to some extent. How will a KA or an NND ever get through a guy with 12d6 EB that subtracts 12d6 from all attacks, regardless of their cost per die?

 

let's look at some examples. Assume the attack will be 60 AP before applying the advantage. Here, I realize another question - does the level of advantage depend on the base cost of the attack (my assumption) or its final cost? ie is an NND EB a 5 point power or a 10 point power? Let's look at several attacks, and assume Any power, but not Exotic:

 

Attack Cost Dice Subtracted

 

12d6 EB 60 12

 

8d6 AP EB 40 8

 

6d6 NND EB 30 6

 

5d6 AVLD 25 5 [OK, that's a bit more than 60 AP]

 

6d6 Ego Blast 45 6

 

4d6 RKA 30 4

 

For attacks with other advantages, the ratio works out OK - the EB user pays 5 points per d6 subtracted regardless. However, the Ego Blaster pays as much to subtract 6d6 as the EB user would pay to subtract 9d6. The RKA user apays as much to subtract 4d6 as the EB user pays to subtract 6d6.

 

Let's look at adding Exotic.

 

Attack Cost Dice Subtracted

 

12d6 EB 75 12

 

8d6 AP EB 50 8

 

6d6 NND EB 37 6

 

5d6 AVLD 31 5 [OK, that's a bit more than 60 AP]

 

6d6 Ego Blast 60 6

 

4d6 RKA 45 4

 

 

For attacks with other advantages, the ratio works out OK - the EB user pays 5 points per d6 subtracted regardless. However, the Ego Blaster and RKA user are even worse off than before.

 

The disadvantage faced by high point per die powers is exacerbated by the fact that dice subtraction hits these attacks far harder than it hits low point per die powers. The killing attack character never gets any damage through on anyone with the Immunity power. The EB character gets something through on anyone whose powers cost more per die.

 

The bottom line is simple. It still is unbalanced. It is unbalanced because you insist on using dice instead of DC's. The application of an advantage to attacks in order to increase defenses also causes a lot of the problem.

 

You seem to be focused in on EB's. For that reason, I would assume a 6 point cost to offset 1d6 damage from any attack of the same SFX is reasonable (NOTE: computed simply as 5 x 1.25 = 6.25, rounded to 6). Whether this is a reasonable cost I have no idea, but it seems you feel it would be in your game, and that's what's important.

 

So why not just set the cost at 6 points to reduce all attacks of a given SFX by 1 DC? Voila - no balance issues for KA's vs Dispels, no point cost issues based on type of attack and dice per DC and no using limitations on your attack power to get a cost break on your defense power.

 

You'll brush this off, of course, because it doesn't link directly to the number of dice in the attack (which, as I think the above sets out adequately, is unbalanced), or because it's not your "always subtract the same number of dice" approach. You want it to link to the attack directly? All you have to do is multiply the DC of your attack by 6 and pay that many points for the defensive power.

 

But if you're happpy with the construct as it stands, that's fine too - USE IT IN YOUR GAME and let us know the results.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Another issue - as this ability is an advantage on an EB or other attack power, it makes the attack power cost more END to use. The defenses themselves cost no END, since they are in place whether or not the character actually uses the attack.

[Robyn]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

Screen

This advantage is applied to an attack and allows the character to reduce/negate the effect of similar attacks. This advantage can be purchased at varying levels to reflect different SFX. When the character is attacked and has the matching SFX, the number of dice the character has in the attack that the advantage is applied to is subtracted from the number of dice that is rolled from the incoming attack.

 

Example:

10d6 EB (Fire Blast) with Expanded Screen is attacked with a 12d6 EB (Fire Blast). Ten dice are removed before rolling the attack, thus the attack becomes a 2d6 attack.

 

I love this! It was on my list of "things I want to ask about if I get to the end of 5ER's chargen process and haven't found a way of doing yet". I can see it for DragonBall's "energy beams" (where two combatants try to overpower one another with energy beams "pushing" against each other), and the Killer Bean 2's "shooting bullets out of the air". There are lots more tricks and style to be found in this, of course, but those are the popular "this one happens in genre, that one is a obvious trick to aim for" that are most likely to be recognized.

 

I'm fairly certain that Zornwil understood this idea from the get go. He hasn't posted since he's been very busy lately. So I've got one person so far that is having a hard time grasping the idea. Hey' date=' it happens. No big deal. There have been times it's taken me over 50 posts from various people in order for me to understand what they were getting at.[/quote']

I'm not sure what to attribute the dearth of other posters to. Perhaps you are receiving hundreds of pmails patting you on the back for putting up with the dullard who cannot comprehend the brillaint insights of your suggestion. However, if your in box is not stuffed, perhaps, just perhaps, few or no other posters perceive a compelling need for this construct you propose, and therefore most are not following the thread at all. Maybe there's a lurker or two around who would care to comment on their views on the matter.

 

I've been heavily absent while I attend to reading (comprehending, and memorizing) the chargen process for 5ER. I missed a few threads in that time. I'll go back and find them after I catch up on builds and such.

 

. . . thread necromancy? What's that?

 

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that 12 dice is not 72 points. It's 12-72 points' date=' with an average of 42.[/quote']

 

That depends on whether we're rolling the dice, or counting them

 

Take the dice. Place them on the table. [Do NOT roll them yet!] Announce the power. Declare your target. The target must declare their intent to defend with their own attack power at this time, if at all. If so, the target announces which power they will be using, and places their own dice on the table. (It should go without saying, by this point, that the target is not rolling yet either.) The target then begins to remove dice, one at a time, from the table. (It should also go without saying that the target cannot remove your dice, either ) For each die they remove from their own attack power, you must then remove one die from yours. Dice may not be added to the table while this is happening. If you run out of dice, your attack power is completely nullified. If your target cannot remove any more dice (notice that this is different from running out, since you should still remove one die at that point, to match their last) to continue the process and force you to remove another as well, but you still have dice left, you pick them up. Then you roll them

 

Remember, my method uses the "Subtract Dice To Roll" to obtain the effect.

Therefore, 12d6 will wipe out exactly 72 Points of Damage, every single time.

 

Therefore, 18d6 will actually roll 6d6 and that gets applied to any normal defenses the character has. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

 

This was actually the most confusing way you phrased it . . .

 

12d6 will not wipe out "exactly 72 Points of Damage, every single time"; if that were so, damage would have to be rolled and tallied up before the defense could be applied. It will eliminate a maximum potential of 72 points of damage, assuming Normal attack.

 

A similar issue arises when a limitation is applied to the attack' date=' since this reduces the cost of both the defensive and offensive capabilities of the attack, but may well only hinder one or the other. Reduced Penetration, no Knockback, Does no Stun, Reduced Stun Multiple, etc. will all reduce the cost of the full advantaged power, yet will not reduce the efficiency of its defensive component.[/quote']

 

To borrow a concept that I'm experiencing difficulties with myself, why not fix these issues by going with the Active Points?

 

Maybe you're not getting the gist of how this Advantage is supposed to be used. It is to be applied on the power that is the central theme of the character's SFX. This means that it should go on the most used and highest purchased power. That's the whole point. The character has so much control over the SFX (he's using this power all the time or more than any other)' date=' that he can actually reduce the damage of attacks against him that have the same SFX.[/quote']

 

The most used may not be the same as the "highest purchased". (Do you mean AP or RP there, by the way?)

 

The same character may well have fire-powered Flight which should also increase in lockstep with his fire-powered EB - do we need a "Attack that allows movement" advantage as well?

 

Well, we do have an Advantage already for movement that can be used as other types of movement. Could this be expanded upon?

 

Not that I seriously advocate an overlap like this. If we're making more than minor tweaks (such as what Chris is proposing), it would be more efficient to overhaul the entire system.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Screen

 

12d6 will not wipe out "exactly 72 Points of Damage' date=' every single time"; if that were so, damage would have to be rolled and tallied up before the defense could be applied. It will eliminate a [i']maximum potential[/i] of 72 points of damage, assuming Normal attack.

 

Precisely. To the extent it eliminates 72 points, it eliminates only 12. 12d6 will roll each number with equal frequency. On Average it will reduce damage by 42 points of STUN and 12 BOD.

 

To borrow a concept that I'm experiencing difficulties with myself' date=' why not fix these issues by going with the Active Points?[/quote']

 

I think your difficulties with the concept are showing through. The issue is that a limitation on the power as a whole which only reduces the effectiveness of the attack, and not the defense (or the defense and not the attack) will nevertheless reduce the cost of both attack and defense. Let's try an example:

 

12d6 EB, Non-resistant robust (+1/2), resistant robust (+1/2), Exotic (+1/4) costs 135 points, and lops off 12 dice of any attack or the same SFX. Now let's apply some limitations which impact the attack's utility, but don't impede the defensive capabilities. These could include No range (-1/2), Reduced penetration (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) and Does no Stun (-1). That brings the cost down to 45 points.

 

Could you buy enough PD, ED, power defense, flash defense and mental defense to similarly immunize yourself to 12 dice of attacks from that special effect? With 9 points to invest in each defense type, and assuming a -2 limitation for "only this SFX", you get 27 points of each defense, a far cry from lopping off 12 DC. The book value for "only this SFX" is -1/2, meaning you would get 14 points of each defense. Note that these are also not resistant defenses, which would bring us down to 18 [-2 lim], or 9 [-1/2 lim], points of each defense.

 

Well' date=' we [i']do[/i] have an Advantage already for movement that can be used as other types of movement. Could this be expanded upon?

 

Sure. Let's explore it.

 

How fast does a 10d6 EB - usable as flight (+1/4) allow the character to fly? He paid 12 points, which would normally be 6" flight. Should he get more flight (maybe 12" to simulate the fact the flight in an EC would have been half price)? For consistency with the Screen effect, it should probably generate 30" flight (60 AP), which is a lot.

 

How does he pay END for flight? Is it based on inches of flight? Does it cost the full EB END? If so, does he pay again if the EB is also used to attack?

 

What happpens when we apply a host of limitations that only impact the EB's combat effectiveness? At -2 in limitations (above examples) that 75 becomes 25 points, 1 point more than 12" flight. More combat-affecting limitations would further reduce the cost, eventually making it cheaper than Flight, Extra END.

 

The overlap is a significant issue, whether we overlap attacks and defenses, attacks and movement or what have you. This whole concept moves away from the "each ability is purchased separately" structure to the more Villains & Vigilantes linked powers structure where Fire Powers gets you a flame blast, flight and Flame Defense.