Undetectable Firearms

[Thrakazog]

A question for the motivated rules mechanics among you: how would you model a small pistol (think Walther PPK size) which is made of materials designed to foil weapon detection technology? Consider it's use in Dark Champions campaigns and in Star Hero campaigns.

 

I'm thinking of a hold-out type gun that can be tucked up a sleeve into a zip holster or into the small of one's back - something small but serviceable for that just-in-case moment, and which can be snuck into areas where weapons aren't typically allowed.

 

The gun part is easy, but how would you model the anti-detection piece?

[pinecone]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Images or neg levels vs "weapon detectors" and the use concealment vs physical searches.....what level of Tech? Biotech could provide a custom attack virus that you are immune to....say it activates in response to your adrenal gland...real hard to find.....

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Advantage: Reduced Size, -1/4 for every -1 PER roll vs searches.

 

Conversely, you can apply Increased Size as a Limitation to rifles and the like.

 

Note: the only time I've ever actually used this has been in heroic games where I wasn't too fussed about exact costs for equipment. If your characters pay points for their gear, then YMMV.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

IPE: Radio Group should take care of X-rays/Metal Detectors for the most part.

Or even a Custom Advantage: Undetectable To Weapon Scanners +1/4 or +1/2.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Sorry, I thought you were just asking about physical concelability. Maybe I should try actually reading the OP before I respond, eh?

 

I still think negative PER levels is the easiest way to go. Although if you want the detection technology to be an automatic thing (rather than a detection roll), then Invisibility Only vs Weapons Scanners might be a better bulid.

 

I don't think I'd go with IPE; I see IPE as being primarily for powers that can't be detected while in use.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Invisible Power Effects would have been my first thought too, but bigdamnhero does make a valid point that it really affects the use of the weapon not the focus of the gun itself.

 

So you could build it with Images or Invisibility only vs the gun, but I think bigdamnhero is right (again) about the negative PER levels. You might also buy it as a bonus to a Concealment roll, only vs weapon detectors, but that is essentially the same thing. Well, no not quite I guess...

 

Enough babbling. Just read bigdamnhero's post and forget I signed on.

 

__________________________________________________________

"Some people spread joy whervever they go. Others whenever they go." - Oscar Wilde

[Armitage]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

One of the Power Examples for Invisible Power Effects is a Plastic Pistol: RKA, Invisible to Metal Detectors (+1/4). H5R, p. 261.

The value of IPE is halved if only either the source or special effect is Invisible, not both, i.e., an invisible gun with visible shots or a visible gun with invisible shots.

 

Or you could just declare it a Special Effect, the same way a character with a stone club wouldn't buy it Invisible to metal detectors. It simply isn't what the detector detects.

If necessary, you could balance it with a slightly lower Focus DEF or a greater chance of malfunctioning, or something.

[casualplayer]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

I would probably just make it an Inobvious Focus. IPE makes it sound like you could use it with making noise, as if it were silencer equipped, or without drawing the attention that firing a gun would normally draw.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Or you could just declare it a Special Effect, the same way a character with a stone club wouldn't buy it Invisible to metal detectors. It simply isn't what the detector detects.

If necessary, you could balance it with a slightly lower Focus DEF or a greater chance of malfunctioning, or something.

 

That's my basic take on it.

 

If you really feel the need to pay points for it, try Invisibility to Metal Detectors, Persistent, Inherent, Always On (probably a -0 'cause it's not that big a deal), Only Covers The Focus (-2).

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Don't build it as a weapon. I mean, sure, It's a weapon. But if you never take a 'focus' limitation on it, and you don't add 'real weapon,' then there is nothing requiring it to be either a focus or a real weapon.

 

Along the lines of a Supers game: Captain Eyebeam will never have his pistols found because he doesn't have any.

 

Same with this build. Rather than build it as a focus, use Independant (if it's something you want to be able to pass around), charges, and anything else appropriate that does not mandate it to be something separate from the character.

 

The fact that it _is_ separate from the character is a special effect. The fact that it has no limitation requiring it to be separate from the character makes it totally undectable as something that must be separate from the character.

[casualplayer]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Don't build it as a weapon. I mean, sure, It's a weapon. But if you never take a 'focus' limitation on it, and you don't add 'real weapon,' then there is nothing requiring it to be either a focus or a real weapon.

 

Along the lines of a Supers game: Captain Eyebeam will never have his pistols found because he doesn't have any.

 

Same with this build. Rather than build it as a focus, use Independant (if it's something you want to be able to pass around), charges, and anything else appropriate that does not mandate it to be something separate from the character.

 

The fact that it _is_ separate from the character is a special effect. The fact that it has no limitation requiring it to be separate from the character makes it totally undectable as something that must be separate from the character.

 

Good thinking! Always has a gun, even when he shouldn't, couldn't and wouldn't means focus rules do not apply.

[Zed-F]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

I would really be hesitant to let someone put Independent on anything in a supers game. It just doesn't fit the genre. And I'll have to take it away at some point, and he'll never get it back.

 

I would just call it an IAF focus. That's what a single shot lipstick-tube-gun would be -- it's Inobvious to sight. This isn't much different, even if it may be Inobvious to different senses. I didn't get the impression that the character magically always has a gun available, just that this specific weapon is difficult to detect as such.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Also, the original post was calling for use in Dark Champions and Star Hero - not Super Hero. Which means Focus may be a required Limitation. As might be Real Weapon.

 

Thus forcing us to come up with a construct for this concept.

 

First off, how do weapon detectos work? Are they metal detectors, or something like from Total Recall?

 

In Either case IPE, or some custom variation thereof, seems to work best IMO. Remember it's not being hidden by skill, or clever concealment that has a chance to fail - it's just not detectable by certain methods because of it's construction.

 

If this is a non-standard option for weapons in the campaigns (quite possibly so for Dark Champions) then an Advantage is in order to change the properties of the Weapon being constructed.

 

If it is a standard option on most firearms (Star Hero where one group/species builds weapons out of plastic for whatever reason) and only comes up every once in a while (not everywhere in the SH campaign will be looking for weapons) then relegate it to SFX.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Same with this build. Rather than build it as a focus' date=' use Independant (if it's something you want to be able to pass around), charges, and anything else appropriate that does not mandate it to be something separate from the character.[/quote']

That's a common misconception; you don't use Indepedent for something you can loan out to other characters (or the bad guys might be able to use if they get it away from you). You declare the focus to be Universal instead of Personal, which is a (+0) modifier, because the advantages and the disadvantages of anyone being able to use it balance out. The same with it being Personal and only you being able to use it. That's why declaring a Focus to be Universal or Personal is one of the choices you get to make when putting the Focus limitation on something in the first place, but it doesn't modify the value of the limitation.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

One of the Power Examples for Invisible Power Effects is a Plastic Pistol: RKA' date=' Invisible to Metal Detectors (+1/4). H5R, p. 261.[/quote']

Huh, I'd missed that somehow; good catch. But it still doesn't make sense to me. The text for IPE specifically states that it hides the sfx and/or source of a power "when it is used or in use." The whole point of concealability is to hide it when it is not in use. To put it another way, a plastic pistol may get past the metal detectors, but its source and its effect are both going to be blatantly obvious once you start shooting.

 

But hey, if it's in the book I certainly can't fault anyone for using it.

 

Don't build it as a weapon. I mean, sure, It's a weapon. But if you never take a 'focus' limitation on it, and you don't add 'real weapon,' then there is nothing requiring it to be either a focus or a real weapon.

The fact that it _is_ separate from the character is a special effect. The fact that it has no limitation requiring it to be separate from the character makes it totally undectable as something that must be separate from the character.

A nice idea, but I'm not sure it addresses the OP's goal. As I understand it, the idea is to make the weapon harder to detect, not impossible to separate from the character once it has been detected. I.e. - you can sneak the gun into the party, but once the fight starts you can still be disarmed normally.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Huh' date=' I'd missed that somehow; good catch. But it still doesn't make sense to me. The text for IPE specifically states that it hides the sfx and/or source of a power "when it is used or in use." The whole point of concealability is to hide it when it is [u']not[/u] in use. To put it another way, a plastic pistol may get past the metal detectors, but its source and its effect are both going to be blatantly obvious once you start shooting.

 

But hey, if it's in the book I certainly can't fault anyone for using it.

Consider it a clever repurposing of the system. A clever Hero Hack if you will.

 

Besides, just because the book says that doesn't mean it's not the only use for it.

[GreyGuardian]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

There really aren't any undetectable firearms currently. There are some that don't show up via the typical metal detector but a personnel security x-ray system like SECURE 1000 or Bodysearch (real products in use in the U.S. currently) will pick up anything gun like unless it is concealed internally (ie a very uncomfortable place). For star hero the problem becomes even worse if you are using a space opera-ish setting like Terran Empires since the scanners are VPP and can be reconfigured to find anything.

 

Anyway, I would think the best way to go is make the weapon a multipower like a rifle you can shoot or you can use the butt as an HA to wack someone. Or perhaps a compound power. The gun can shoot. The gun can make itself invisible to metal detectors (magnetic fields). Another option which is probably "cleaner" is the gun gives a bonus (ie gives skill levels) to concealment skill - which could be limited to metal detectors, or x-ray, or just all concealment if the gun is very small.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Undetectable Firearms

 

Consider it a clever repurposing of the system. A clever Hero Hack if you will.

 

Besides, just because the book says that doesn't mean it's not the only use for it.

True. And it's certainly a much cleaner write-up than tacking on a seperate Power. OK, you've sold me.

 

There really aren't any undetectable firearms currently. There are some that don't show up via the typical metal detector but a personnel security x-ray system like SECURE 1000 or Bodysearch (real products in use in the U.S. currently) will pick up anything gun like unless it is concealed internally (ie a very uncomfortable place). For star hero the problem becomes even worse if you are using a space opera-ish setting like Terran Empires since the scanners are VPP and can be reconfigured to find anything.

That would seem to be easily handled: just define the IPE (or Invisibility or whatever) as working against certain technologies, but not others.