Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

[David Johnston]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

The example to which I refer was my example character who was a highly skilled, highly trained combatant who could match a superhumanly fast combatant in all respects in combat.

 

The problem with that example is that it is internally contradictory. Obviously the second character can not be superhumanly fast if a human is just as fast.

[David Johnston]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I think much of the definitive problem is the idea of "normal" or "real people" being mistaken for the guy next door as opposed to "real" or "normal" people in drama and literature. gary has made a good point with Batman.

 

The characters played in the movies by Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Vin Diesel, in the movies or Tarzan, Doc Savage, Honor Harrington, or James Bond in literature are humans with environmental or training edges. No way can I be convinced that Tarzan or the iconic Bruce Lee could be built with 20STR or 20 DEX and 3-4 SPD. Their marked superiority to elite troops and even "boss" level baddies makes it hard for me to accept that the only choices are "reality" or "mutant".

 

So what you're saying is, combat skills levels suck? It's better to put your points into DEX? This would suggest that DEX is undervalued.

[Gary]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

So what you're saying is' date=' combat skills levels suck? It's better to put your points into DEX? This would suggest that DEX is undervalued.[/quote']

 

It is. Big time.

[OddHat]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

So what you're saying is' date=' combat skills levels suck? It's better to put your points into DEX? This would suggest that DEX is undervalued.[/quote']

 

The 5 and 8 point skill levels are overpriced in games with no NCM, though the 10 point Overall levels are sometimes worthwhile.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I find it vaguely amusing that some people in this thread seem to think characters like Captain America and Batman must be built with either high Characteristics or with Skill levels, as if the two approaches are mutually exclusive. I'd build either one with a combination of comfortably-above-normal DEX/SPD and Skill levels. Both are game mechanics, and represent metagamed aspects of construction.

 

Captain America doesn't say "Wow! Spider-Man's 38 DEX and 7 SPD sure makes him hard to hit!" He says "Wow, that Spider-Man sure is fast! I'll have to use all my natural abilities and training to hit him!"

 

We should not lose sight of the fact we're building characters; and characters (as opposed to constructs) sometimes require less efficient builds. But it shouldn't mean it always requires the less efficient build.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Captain America doesn't say "Wow! Spider-Man's 38 DEX and 7 SPD sure makes him hard to hit!" He says "Wow, that Spider-Man sure is fast! I'll have to use all my natural abilities and training to hit him!"

 

I've got the Captain Amercia Vs Spider-man special issue #37, the one with the gold foiled cover, limited edition, and that is the first thing you mentioned was exactly what he was thinking on page 7, third panel.

[OddHat]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I find it vaguely amusing that some people in this thread seem to think characters like Captain America and Batman must be built with either high Characteristics or with Skill levels, as if the two approaches are mutually exclusive. I'd build either one with a combination of comfortably-above-normal DEX/SPD and Skill levels. Both are game mechanics, and represent metagamed aspects of construction.

 

Captain America doesn't say "Wow! Spider-Man's 38 DEX and 7 SPD sure makes him hard to hit!" He says "Wow, that Spider-Man sure is fast! I'll have to use all my natural abilities and training to hit him!"

 

We should not lose sight of the fact we're building characters; and characters (as opposed to constructs) sometimes require less efficient builds. But it shouldn't mean it always requires the less efficient build.

 

Agreed. I'd add (and I know this was implicit, I just want to bring it out a bit) that the Characters don't know their stats, or the mechanics used to build them. Captain America doesn't know that (in a given campaign) he has a Dex 29, 2 Overall Levels, and 6 3 point Levels with All American Fighting Arts (Default Element: Empty Hand, Weapon Element: Shield). He knows that he can hit almost anything, because in his campaign world he can.

 

We tend to get stuck on the mechanics and forget that, from our character's point of view, "they're not fighting a write up, they're fighting a tank" (Trebuchet, 2005).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

So what you're saying is' date=' combat skills levels suck? It's better to put your points into DEX? This would suggest that DEX is undervalued.[/quote']

 

The problem is that there are two prices for stats, the pre-NCM price and the post-NCM price. At present, skill levels are overpriced compared to just buying +5 in the underlying stat. Paying 5 points for +1 to all PRE based skills will never be superior to buying +5 PRE for the same 5 points.

 

However, if we reduce the cost of skill levels to make them competetive in that environment, they now become underpriced in games where NCM applies, since I can get +1 to all the skills for half the price of buying up the stat.

 

Separate pricing for skill levels in an NCM game and skill levels in a non-NCM game could solve this.

 

I find 2 point skill levels (+1 OCV wth 1 maneuver) and 3 point levels (tight group) for the maneuvers the character uses most commonly can be ecoonomical for characters who have one primary attack, or whose attacks fall into a tight group. For characters with a wider array of attacks, no they are not cost effective.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

We tend to get stuck on the mechanics and forget that' date=' from our character's point of view, "they're not fighting a write up, they're fighting a tank" (Trebuchet, 2005).[/quote']I said that? Damn, I'm smart!

[Zed-F]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

From my recollection at least in the Marvel Universe, the least costumed martial artist was Mockingbird, and she generally didn't have any problems with cannon fodder.

 

As far as training, I don't know about Hydra and Aim, but Shield agents are generally the creme de la creme of agents, and every one of them is probably equal to a special forces soldier. And based on what I've read of West Coast Avengers, IMO Mockingbird could easily clobber 4 or more of them.

 

From what I could find on Mockingbird, she was a former Shield agent herself. For a 250-point NCM game I'd probably build her with somewhere between 17-20/4 to a Shield agent's 14/3. And she'd certainly have more levels than any agent. An average CV of 7-9 to a Shield agent's average CV of 5-6, probably better defenses, and better DCs... taking on 4 doesn't sound like too much of a stretch, if she can maintain a substantial DCV edge over them. And it's quite possible within NCM on a 250-point budget. But that's for a Dark Champions-style version of the character, and I don't get the impression that her native habitat is that gritty. For a more natural 4-colour feel for the character, play her at 350 and boost her CV accordingly.

 

Similarly, one *can* build an early version of Batman, within NCM, on 250 points. But if someone wants Batman to appear in their game, in many cases that won't be the version they are thinking of. (Certainly not one with only a single overall level and no CSLs to his name!)

[Checkmate]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

In my opinion, your answer reinforces JMOz' point. The only reason that "trained normals" pay more points is that YOU have decided that characters of that conception will pay extra points. It's no different than deciding that being a mutant costs 5 points, or that all magic-based powers cost double.

I agree. So what? You don't let a trained human have a 60 STR when that would be more cost efficient than buying Martial Arts plus DC's there is NO DIFFERENCE. Sure you can use your "Genre Example" but, you've already agreed my way can simulate the Genre too. All you're left with is the basic fact that this is the EXACT SAME THING. You accept it with STR, but you don't with DEX.

You have stated it. Your examples have fallen far from proving it.

Of course they do, you keep changing it to suit your argument. If my example proves it, you add another "What If" so my example is no longer valid.

 

The example to which I refer was my example character who was a highly skilled' date=' highly trained combatant who could match a superhumanly fast combatant in all respects in combat.[/quote']

Okay NOW I have a concept I can work with. It's what you've stated, so no changing it, even when you see how rediculously easy it will be to prove I can make your coneption.

 

Okay, first thing we have to do is determine what a Superhumanly Fast Combatant is. Welp in my world 21 DEX is superhumanly fast.

 

Now we have to figure out how much more a person has to spend to make NCM of 20 DEX just as effective as a 21 DEX. Well let's see, first you have to buy Lightning Reflexes +1 for 1 point...Yep I see your point, to fit into your concept, I need a whole extra negative two points. Boy did you show me.

 

You continually provided point disparity examples using levels in martial arts' date=' when such a character should be equally accomplished in both HTH and ranged combat, and with combat maneuvers whether or not they are martial in nature. IOW, you provided a build which carried a point cost only marginally greater to be far less accomplished.[/quote']

Again I was working off half a concept, now that that's nailed down, I've solved the problem.

As to the "change your concept" approach' date=' you can either be a trained non-super and pay extra points, or change your concept from a trained non-super to some other SFX to be permitted to pay the same points as any other character to achieve the same results.[/quote']

Absolutely, just like you can be a trained non-super and have to buy a 20 STR plus DC's for Martial Arts, or you can change your concept and simply buy a 60 STR. Show me the difference.

[Checkmate]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

An advantage, not is disads or play, but in creation - what can this character buy that other characters cannot buy, or must pay a extra premium for. If there is nothing than you are biasing character choices by making that one character concept weaker than others. Period.

 

It is no different than "everyone can purchase AP, except energy projectors - energy can't cut armor down, so it costs energy projectors +1 for Armor Piercing"

Actually it's more like saying "If your origin is you are a trained human you can't shoot fire out of your mouth." What are YOU giving trained humans to make up for that limitation?

 

You see EVERYONE does what I do, they just don't do it to DEX. The fact that someone is suggesting it, seems be mindblowing.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I have REPEATEDLY answered this question: Because it is their conception and that's what I say. You want the advantages for balance? If someone has a Drain Mutant Power power, the normal human doesn't get drained. If they go into a zone where no powers work, the normal human isn't effected.

 

I have also stated with the levels I play at, the extra cost is next to nill (and for that example Hugh, how could I change theconcept you never came up with one).

 

 

Ok, let me rephase: Why should this concept be unfairly punished because of your bias against it? How is the level of points valid, 1 point or a hundred you are still charging them points for the concept how is that FAIR

[Trebuchet]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I agree. So what? You don't let a trained human have a 60 STR when that would be more cost efficient than buying Martial Arts plus DC's there is NO DIFFERENCE. Sure you can use your "Genre Example" but, you've already agreed my way can simulate the Genre too. All you're left with is the basic fact that this is the EXACT SAME THING. You accept it with STR, but you don't with DEX.

 

[snip]

 

Absolutely, just like you can be a trained non-super and have to buy a 20 STR plus DC's for Martial Arts, or you can change your concept and simply buy a 60 STR. Show me the difference.

OK, let's start with:

 

- 60 STR uses more END per Phase than equivalent damage with martial arts

 

- 60 STR costs more than equivalent damage with martial arts

 

- 60 STR provides additional PD

 

- 60 STR provides additional REC

 

- 60 STR provides additional STUN

 

- 60 STR provides additional Lifting capability

 

- 60 STR provides additional Leaping capability

 

- 60 STR provides additional Throwing capability

 

In other words, extra STR does not provide identical benefits to a character with martial arts who does the same number of damage classes. The martial artist gains:

 

- Lower END cost

 

- Some CV benefits

 

- several unique combat maneuvers

 

Hardly seems an even match, even if it were in concept for most martial artists to have 60 STR instead of a significantly lower STR plus Martial Maneuvers and Damage Classes. Some people actually build to a concept; not to maximum point efficiency.

 

You may feel that 21+ is "superhuman" in your campaign, but your campaign is not everybody else's. Many, maybe most, GMs are not going to consider that the break point for truly superhuman levels, especially in a Champions campaign (and this entire discussion is about Champions, not some other genre). Champions officially considers 30+ to be superhuman. Not 21+ unless the character takes the NCM Disad.

 

I as a GM wouldn't let a "trained human" concept exceed 30 DEX anymore than I'd let him buy 60 STR, but I would let him buy 30 in either Characteristic. You've been throwing around a 32 DEX straw man most of this thread when most GMs in fact probably wouldn't allow a 32 DEX to call himself a "normal" man in the first place. Of course, I wouldn't give either Batman or Captain America a DEX in the 30's either. They'd both be in the upper 20's with multiple Skill Levels; and both with a 6 SPD if I built them. Fast. Not superhuman.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Actually it's more like saying "If your origin is you are a trained human you can't shoot fire out of your mouth." What are YOU giving trained humans to make up for that limitation?

 

You see EVERYONE does what I do, they just don't do it to DEX. The fact that someone is suggesting it, seems be mindblowing.

 

I would allow a normal human to breath fire out of there mouth, I can think of three or four F/X for it. Including intence training in three different fields.

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

That analogy would only be appropriate if the GMs in question charged every training based character extra points. They don't. A more accurate analogy would be "Try telling players that they must pay 5 points if they want to be a mutant who uses guns".

 

Actualy it would be closer to "Pay 5 points if you want to be a mutant with equal combat abilities as the gun bunny"

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I will say one thing for this thread, I am going to start makeing characters write there stats twice, one as baseline, one as "Power/Training devised"

 

So a MA may have Dex 17 in characteristics and Intence Training +10 Dex, totaling 27 dex. So that if I use a Puppet master type mind controler (Controls the body but not the mind) I know where skill and Natural abilities seperate...

[JmOz]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Also to checkmates no difference concept: Yes there is a difference

 

GM says NO to concept, next character will be balanced to other characters

 

GM say YES but at additional cost: Character is not balanced to other characters

 

1 point or a million, it does not matter, don't even bother saying at your scale it is near nill, it is still unfair.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Actually it's more like saying "If your origin is you are a trained human you can't shoot fire out of your mouth." What are YOU giving trained humans to make up for that limitation?

 

You see EVERYONE does what I do, they just don't do it to DEX. The fact that someone is suggesting it, seems be mindblowing.

 

If you can't see the imbalance in what you are doing, then I'm not going to try anymore.

 

Consider me bowed out of this part of the thread.

[Checkmate]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

- 60 STR uses more END per Phase than equivalent damage with martial arts

 

- 60 STR costs more than equivalent damage with martial arts

 

- 60 STR provides additional PD

 

- 60 STR provides additional REC

 

- 60 STR provides additional STUN

 

- 60 STR provides additional Lifting capability

 

- 60 STR provides additional Leaping capability

 

- 60 STR provides additional Throwing capability

Thank you for proving my point for me. What you've just proved is it is A LOT more cost effective and you get TONS more benefit from STR. So it is EXACTLY the same thing as what I'm doing. Someone who is a trained normal will get TONS of benefit from 60 STR than with DC's to martial arts. If you deny a trained human to take a 60 STR, you are making them pay more. And let's not forget that I got Hugh's character conception where Normal Guy was made with LESS points than the mutant counterpart, does that all of a sudden make my way better?

 

Now I'm curious, is it ONLY DEX you feel should be without limits? I mean would you allow a trained human to have a 50 CON? What about a 50 PD/ED? Would you allow them to have a 12 SPD and for the concept say, they were just a really good Green Beret that's why they have a 50 CON, 50 PD/ED and a 12 SPD? Is DEX unlimited? I mean could I say that I was an olympic gymnist that's why I have a 60 DEX? If I can't be a trained human with a 60 DEX that means you've imposed a limit somewhere, so what makes your limit better than mine? Just because you've set the benchmarks higher, that makes them better?

 

Deny it all you want, but you've all set limits for what you will and won't accept for a trained normal, you just haven't set DEX as low as I have.

 

I would allow a normal human to breath fire out of there mouth' date=' I can think of three or four F/X for it. Including intence training in three different fields.[/quote']Right so as long as it fits your F/X you'll allow it...yeah, that's SO much different than what I'm saying

 

But now let's look at things a little differently. You all say it's "Unfair" to the trained human martial artist, so let's say I change it, trained humans can have whatever DEX they want, it has now ruined my WHOLE system. Why should I limit a scientist EP to human NCM? Would it be fair to them? Why should they be stuck at an 11 DEX and forced to buy Skill levels when Normal Man over there has a 32 DEX and he's just a normal person.

[Checkmate]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Ok' date=' let me rephase: Why should this concept be unfairly punished because of your bias against it? How is the level of points valid, 1 point or a hundred you are still charging them points for the concept how is that FAIR[/quote']

Don't say I'm "biased" against this conception. 95% of the characters I play are trained humans. It is my absolute FAVORITE character type. It has to do with keeping my game world the way I want it.

 

and "unfairly punished" is a GROSS overstatement, as I've already proved with Hugh's concept, Normal Man came in with LESS points spent. So am I now "unfairly punnishing" the Mutant build?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

OK, let's start with:

 

- 60 STR uses more END per Phase than equivalent damage with martial arts

 

- 60 STR costs more than equivalent damage with martial arts

 

- 60 STR provides additional PD

 

- 60 STR provides additional REC

 

- 60 STR provides additional STUN

 

- 60 STR provides additional Lifting capability

 

- 60 STR provides additional Leaping capability

 

- 60 STR provides additional Throwing capability

 

In other words, extra STR does not provide identical benefits to a character with martial arts who does the same number of damage classes. The martial artist gains:

 

- Lower END cost

 

- Some CV benefits

 

- several unique combat maneuvers

 

Hardly seems an even match, even if it were in concept for most martial artists to have 60 STR instead of a significantly lower STR plus Martial Maneuvers and Damage Classes. Some people actually build to a concept; not to maximum point efficiency.

 

It's very easy to compare DEX to bonus OCV levels + bonus DCV levels + fast draw + levels with DEX skills. The two provide exactly identical results, and the only difference is the cost. It's not so easy to compare two abilities that differ in results.

 

A 60 STR provides certain benefits. That's a 50 point investment. The martial artist might spend 10 points on STR and 40 points on Martial Arts. Our STR character might buy HTH levels (5 points each) to enhance his combat skills. Our M Artist can buy Martial Arts levels (3 points). The martial arts provide several maneuvers with bonus DCV or OCV (nice if you want to avoid being hit), a legsweep (target is knocked down, knockback resistance or not). When the two characters face off against an opponent with 60 PD [The Indestructible Man], who will have an easier time, our 60 STR Brick, or the M Artist with a Nerve Strike that does 3d6 NND?

 

Which is superior is no longer so clear.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Of course they do, you keep changing it to suit your argument. If my example proves it, you add another "What If" so my example is no longer valid.

 

Okay NOW I have a concept I can work with. It's what you've stated, so no changing it, even when you see how rediculously easy it will be to prove I can make your conception.

 

Okay, first thing we have to do is determine what a Superhumanly Fast Combatant is. Welp in my world 21 DEX is superhumanly fast.

 

Now we have to figure out how much more a person has to spend to make NCM of 20 DEX just as effective as a 21 DEX. Well let's see, first you have to buy Lightning Reflexes +1 for 1 point...Yep I see your point, to fit into your concept, I need a whole extra negative two points. Boy did you show me.

 

If you'll recall, when we previously discussed this concept, it was a character who could match those with superhuman DEX. That does not, to me, mean we play the D&D Wish game and twist the words to the worst possible literal interpretation. It means a character who can compete with the best of the best, in terms of DEX, straight up.

 

We've already done the math for the 27 DEX you initially set as the benchmark in that regard. The math showed quite clearly that the advantage belonged to the super-agile mutant (who bought DEX), and not to the poor Trained Human who needed OCV, DCV and Fast Draw bonuses that more than doubled the cost of the DEX boost.

 

Additionally, you noted you would allow a normal human to buy DEX beyond 20 in limited instances, albeit at double the cost. How, then, is 21 now meeting your definition of "superhuman" when a non-superhuman can achieve that DEX?

 

And even if your example were rational, DEX effectively costs 2 points, not 3, because one comes back as a rebate to the cost of Speed. As well, Lightning reflexes costs 1 point per +1 only if purchased for only a single action or maneuver. Otherwise, it's +2 for 3 points, so 75% of the real cost of +2 DEX is paid for solely by Lighting Reflexes.

 

Hmmm...I wish I could buy DEX, No Figured, does not increase DEX for order of movement for the leftover 1 point per +2 DEX which is why I consider lightning reflexes vastly overpriced in any case. But that's beside the point.

 

Absolutely' date=' just like you can be a trained non-super and have to buy a 20 STR plus DC's for Martial Arts, or you can change your concept and simply buy a 60 STR. Show me the difference.[/quote']

 

Done repeatedly. As others have already noted, you don't want to get it, so you don't get it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

I will say one thing for this thread, I am going to start makeing characters write there stats twice, one as baseline, one as "Power/Training devised"

 

So a MA may have Dex 17 in characteristics and Intence Training +10 Dex, totaling 27 dex. So that if I use a Puppet master type mind controler (Controls the body but not the mind) I know where skill and Natural abilities seperate...

 

 

I really like that approach. It segregates between "DEX which is natural hand-eye co-ordination and agility" and "DEXwhich is shorthand for a variety of overpriced skill levels".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Combat Skill Levels vs Martial Arts

 

Don't say I'm "biased" against this conception. 95% of the characters I play are trained humans. It is my absolute FAVORITE character type. It has to do with keeping my game world the way I want it.

 

Of course, you've already noted that the games you play in don't incorporate the same bias that you apply in your game world. Are your trained humans in a standard Champs game taking NCM and using levels to make up the difference?

 

and "unfairly punished" is a GROSS overstatement' date=' as I've already proved with Hugh's concept, Normal Man came in with LESS points spent. So am I now "unfairly punnishing" the Mutant build?[/quote']

 

Are you making the Mutant pay more character points for exactly the same build? This is where I, and I believe jmoz, see the issue.