New Player freaks the heck out of me.

[Manic Typist]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I guess I'm a bit of an aberration. Independent is the ONLY limitation that I think does not have to come up in play. The way I look at it, it is a release from a contractual obligation.

 

"Look, you have X, Y, and Z powers bought via Foci. That means that I can and most likely WILL take them away from you at some point. However, no matter WHAT I do to your Focus, no matter HOW unique it is, I will find a way for you to get it back in one form or another. It might not be easy, and it might take a little time, but you WILL get it back."

 

Versus:

 

""Look, you have X, Y, and Z powers bought via Foci. That means that I can and most likely WILL take them away from you at some point. Also, since you have Independent on them, I am under no obligation whatsoever to see that they return to you. Whether or not you are able to regain those items is COMPLETELY dependent on you. I will provide no extra 'give' or 'leeway' in your efforts to secure these items, unlike what I might do in other situations. I will be as neutral as I can, and show you no favor or disfavor, but the same goes for the villain."

 

However, I like Valerious's idea of giving them one chance to get it back.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

""Look' date=' you have X, Y, and Z powers bought via Foci. That means that I can and most likely WILL take them away from you at some point. Also, since you have Independent on them, I am under [u']no[/u] obligation whatsoever to see that they return to you. Whether or not you are able to regain those items is COMPLETELY dependent on you. I will provide no extra 'give' or 'leeway' in your efforts to secure these items, unlike what I might do in other situations. I will be as neutral as I can, and show you no favor or disfavor, but the same goes for the villain."

 

However, I like Valerious's idea of giving them one chance to get it back.

 

Personally, I know of no powergamer who would not jump on that deal for a -2 limit.

 

Especially 'cause they'd probably buy a few spares with the +5pts for doubling...

[sbarron]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Am I think only one that can't see the character? All 3 links just say...

 

"Sorry guys. Revising..."

 

:confused:

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Am I think only one that can't see the character? All 3 links just say...

 

"Sorry guys. Revising..."

 

:confused:

 

They were there originally, but unavailable now.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

As a recovered power junkie myself, let me say from experience that you cannot let this character be played. If nothing else, he will either outshine the other players entirely, or if you enforce the limitations, he will be worthless. In either case he will not be on equal footing with the other characters and this will seriously degrade the enjoyment of the game.

 

You need to tell the player that limitations should not be used for the sake of saving points, tempting though that is. The real purpose of limitations should be to help define the power (e.g. a Telekinesis with a magnetic special effect would only work vs. ferrous metal - you take the limitation because you need it to make the power work as you have envisioned it). The only exception you should generally allow for is powers that are brand new which might be bought with Extra END or Activation or something to reflect that the character is not competent with them yet. This allows the player to get a power and develop it later so they do not have to save up a huge chunk of experience.

 

If the player tells you he needs the limitations to be able to purchase everything his character is supposed to be able to do, then you need to tell him to redefine his concept so that he can build it on the points you have allowed for. If he cannot make this concept work on that many points, he may have to come up with a new character. Sure that would be a bummer initially, but in the end everyone will be happier for it.

 

___________________________________________________________

"Some people spread joy wherever they go. Others, whenever they go." - Oscar Wilde

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Off topic, but:

 

For some time, I've toyed with the notion of upping the base points I give characters, getting rid of Limitations entirely and turning them into Disadvantages instead, with values based on how much of your abilities are tied to the "limit" and how often it will come into play. Something like "The Human Torch - flames can be put out in variety of ways - Common, Greatly Limiting" or "Vision powers/flash def based on goggles - uncommon, minor". Not an ideal solution to be true, many "neat" high AP powers that only become cost-effective via limits, etc. but now and then seeing "straight-up man" 's sheet next to "OIF man" 's sheet...

[RDU Neil]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Off topic, but:

 

For some time, I've toyed with the notion of upping the base points I give characters, getting rid of Limitations entirely and turning them into Disadvantages instead, with values based on how much of your abilities are tied to the "limit" and how often it will come into play. Something like "The Human Torch - flames can be put out in variety of ways - Common, Greatly Limiting" or "Vision powers/flash def based on goggles - uncommon, minor". Not an ideal solution to be true, many "neat" high AP powers that only become cost-effective via limits, etc. but now and then seeing "straight-up man" 's sheet next to "OIF man" 's sheet...

 

I'm totally with you on this, and would completely grok on whatever guidelines you came up with. I think a lot of playtesting would be involved... but I think it is eminently do-able.

 

If you want to start hashing out some basic crunch of this here on the boards, I'd be happy to offer ideas and comments in such a thread.

[Nolgroth]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

This sounds like a guy I almost ran a game for online recently. He bought a magical sword with Independent and then had most of his powers built on the sword. When I told him that he would eventually loose the sword, he accused me of being on a power trip and threatening him.

 

I smell munchkin.

My very first Fantasy HERO character was built this way and through the course of the game, he was rather forced to give up the item. Without it, he was a rather second-rate warrior/rogue. I would never make that mistake again.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Heck, they sounds like SFX to me.

 

"Why do you have this Power?"

"My Avatar grants it to me."

Well, if it is going to be played like Mage the Ascension is, then the GM can roleplay your Avatar as having slightly different motivations than your conscious mind. A mage can come into conflict with his/her Avatar, and if this happens the mage starts to lose some or all magickal ability.

 

For example, a character's Questing Avatar might want him to set off immediately to continue on his quest, but the character might feel the need to stick around and protect his family for a while. Inside he is yearning to leave, but he places himself in conflict with this basic motivation of his soul. His magick suffers for it, so he'd better be careful if the protection depends much on magick.

[pointyman2000]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Hey guys,

 

I talked to him about it and told him that it would be a little difficult for him to go on if somehow, someone was able to take the avatar away from him. (which is sort of possible in my campaign). But that however would just leave him with the vampiric abilities he defined.

 

Also, he decided to swing by this thread to check up on it and said he'll revise his concept, probably taking a technological approach rather than mystical as is seems to have a lot of issues with his build.

 

I'll be checking his new version of vannon blood later once he's done.

 

While we're still on the topic of avatars though, aside from hand waving it as an sfx, how would you build one in HERO?

 

Also, I can testify that he really is a new player. He borrowed the rule book, read through it several times (I'm guessing) and came up with the Independent / Follower combo by himself. Also, I'm glad this guy is someone I can talk to without being all defensive about his builds (see Witching Cloak >_<). So I wouldn't brand him as a munchkin just yet. At most he's just very used to optimizing as much as possible, but is willing to scale down as to not step on people's toes in game.

[pointyman2000]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Well' date=' [i']if it is going to be played like Mage the Ascension is[/i], then the GM can roleplay your Avatar as having slightly different motivations than your conscious mind. A mage can come into conflict with his/her Avatar, and if this happens the mage starts to lose some or all magickal ability.

 

For example, a character's Questing Avatar might want him to set off immediately to continue on his quest, but the character might feel the need to stick around and protect his family for a while. Inside he is yearning to leave, but he places himself in conflict with this basic motivation of his soul. His magick suffers for it, so he'd better be careful if the protection depends much on magick.

 

Another options is if a powerful ritual was enacted that tears his Avatar away (and usually tears the avatar to shreds). A natural instance of this was in Mage: the Ascension revised's Avatar Storm. A giant Avatar blender in the gateway from earth to the spirit world.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Also, I can testify that he really is a new player. He borrowed the rule book, read through it several times (I'm guessing) and came up with the Independent / Follower combo by himself. Also, I'm glad this guy is someone I can talk to without being all defensive about his builds (see Witching Cloak >_<). So I wouldn't brand him as a munchkin just yet. At most he's just very used to optimizing as much as possible, but is willing to scale down as to not step on people's toes in game.

 

Then he sounds like he'll be a great HERO player, and this is definitely the system for him.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Also' date=' I can testify that he really is a new player. He borrowed the rule book, read through it several times (I'm guessing) and came up with the Independent / Follower combo by himself. Also, I'm glad this guy is someone I can talk to without being all defensive about his builds (see Witching Cloak >_<). So I wouldn't brand him as a munchkin just yet. At most he's just very used to optimizing as much as possible, but is willing to scale down as to not step on people's toes in game.[/quote']

 

That's a nice end result - thanks for letting us know.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Another options is if a powerful ritual was enacted that tears his Avatar away (and usually tears the avatar to shreds). A natural instance of this was in Mage: the Ascension revised's Avatar Storm. A giant Avatar blender in the gateway from earth to the spirit world.

No problem. The Avatar still does't have to be built in system terms. I'd define such an attack as a powerful Transform acting on the mage himself. (For those others who have wondered so much lately about the various kinds of Transform--Physical/Mental/Spritual that is--this is a perfect instance for a Spiritual Transform.)

[actingkeith]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I have a perspective that I'd like to share, oddly enough it has a great deal to do with a paradigm shift...

 

I took a look at this character build, and it's clear that this guy has the wrong paradigm with respect to the relation between his character, his character's avatar, and HERO design philosophy.

 

First, the rules definition is that a Focus must be able to be taken away from a character. It must be easy to take away from the character; a single Turn of non-combat for an Innaccessible Focus, and a Takeaway, in-combat maneuver for a Accessible one.

 

As a result, the Avatar cannot be built as a Focus, let alone an Independent one.

 

But I see what he's trying to do, and I think there's a way to fix it.

 

I'd build the character with magick-based powers with a limitation only when Mind Linked to Avatar (-1/4).

 

I'd build the Avatar as an AI (and thus an NPC) with a high enough EGO that it won't need any programs. I'd also build the AI without a Focus, making, therefore, intangible, unseeable, and undetectable... unless some other character has the ability to see such things. Build the Avatar with a Mind Link (Psychic Bond) to the character and enough mental and power defenses that it's basically invulnerable to manipulations by others unless it's specifically targeted by those who know about such things.

 

This way, the Avatar can talk to the character whenever it wants. It can have information that the character doesn't have and can dispense it as needed. It can even have powers that the charcter doesn't have (like the power to put the character through Seekings).

 

I think that if you try to build the character that way, the character will come back to earth while still maintaining the spirit what the player is envisioning.

 

Of course, if what the player is envisioning is the Power that comes with all those points... your problem has nothing to do with the character build, and everything to do with the player.

 

Hope that helps,

 

-keith

[OddHat]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I'm totally with you on this, and would completely grok on whatever guidelines you came up with. I think a lot of playtesting would be involved... but I think it is eminently do-able.

 

If you want to start hashing out some basic crunch of this here on the boards, I'd be happy to offer ideas and comments in such a thread.

 

I thought it was called Fuzion?

 

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I thought it was called Fuzion?

 

 

Really? Never played Fuzion. Did they do that or something similar?

[gojira]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

While we're still on the topic of avatars though' date=' aside from hand waving it as an sfx, how would you build one in HERO?[/quote']

 

Based on what others are saying about MtA, it's a -0 limitation.

 

Only In Hero ID is -1/4, and you do not have the power at all with this lim when you are not in your heroic ID. An Avatar is less of a disadvantage. When the Avatar is in conflict, he has some reduced powers. That's not really a huge lim on less it comes up a lot.

 

If he wants some points back for having to get along with his Avatar, give him a Hunted (Watched by Avatar) at about the 10 or 15 point level. That should do it.

[OddHat]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

Really? Never played Fuzion. Did they do that or something similar?

 

Pretty much, though I'd have to dig out my old copy of Champions New Millenium for details. IIRC, Limitations were replaced by a form of Disad called Complications, which you could optionally take to increase the number of points you had to work with.

[pointyman2000]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

I have a perspective that I'd like to share, oddly enough it has a great deal to do with a paradigm shift...

 

*snippage of cool avatar via AI concept*

 

Hope that helps,

 

-keith

 

Thanks for pointing out the feasibility of the AI as his avatar, Keith. I'll show it to him and have him check if it's closer to what he had in mind.

 

How would we simulate the fact that the loss of access to an avatar results in the loss of magic? Limited Power: Must have Avatar's consent (-0)?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

How would we simulate the fact that the loss of access to an avatar results in the loss of magic? Limited Power: Must have Avatar's consent (-0)?

 

Not dissimilar from the fantasy cleric trope "only when serving deity's will" which generally runs -1/2. But again, what it's worth depends on how often it will be a problem for the character, and how serious a problem.

[gojira]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

It kinda depends on how often his Avatar would refuse to give consent. -1/4 is "power looses about a fourth of it's effectiveness." So, you could say that 6 hours out of every day is about "a fourth." Or you could say that 12 hours out of everyday he's at half power. That's about "a fourth" too.

 

That's a pretty tough standard actually, when you think about it. -1/4 is a pretty big limitation in terms of actual inconevience. I don't think most GMs adhere to that strictly, but still that's the letter of the rules.

 

If the Avatar imposes less than the standard above, then it drops to -0. Two or three hours each day, half power for 6 hours each day, etc. Those are all less than the -1/4 lim.

 

What you really need to do is sit down with the player and ask "How often is your Avatar going to take all of your powers away?" If the answer sounds like -0, then that's what you give him. I think he have to spend part of each play session in conflict with his Avatar to qualify for even just the -1/4. Many players don't want to deal with that (some do, however), so many powers are just -0 even if there's some sort of limitation on it. Then it just becomes a plot hook for the GM.

[gojira]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

P.S. Hunted (Watched by Avatar).

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

In Fuzion Complications were Disadvantages... but Limitations were Complications.

 

I liked that. The Power Armour guy was a Flying Blaster/Brick with a 30pt (read: 60pt) 'Physical Limitation' relating to the fact you could break or steal all his powers.

 

The other nifty thing there was that disadvantages were de-emphasised; they were worth about half as much in terms of points gained, so you could actually feel good about not taking too many.

 

Yeah. Fuzion was a pretty good system, really... at least some of the features should have made 5th ed somewhere.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: New Player freaks the heck out of me.

 

"Surbrook's Stuff" has an extensive World of Darkness conversion, including Mage, with some specific suggestions on how to handle Avatars: http://surbrook.devermore.net/whitewolf/WODHERO.html

 

BTW I've been getting error messages all day while trying to access Surbrook's Stuff, http://devermore.net/index/ . Is anyone else having that problem, or is it just me? (Wouldn't be the first time.)