Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

[Zephrosyne]

After having 5th Edition since it first came out and then 5th Edition Revised, I finally got off my butt and gmed it. I have ran Hero System before when it was 4th Edition. Admittedly, I did a mediocre job to say the least so I really wanted to try again. The campaign wasn't particularly long, lasting only a few months. I just wanted to run one story arc to compare it to Mutants and Masterminds 2nd Edition to see which I preferred. The results were interesting.

 

I won't go into the campaign itself because it isn't terribly relevant to the post and no one probably cares to hear it. I just wanted to comment on my observations from a mechanical point of view. As a reference, I'll say that it was a superhero campaign. Frankly, I ended up liking Hero System better than Mutants and Masterminds because I think the level of detail involved suits me better. That being said, I think that the level of detail in Hero System was a bit much at times (damage).

 

When my players created characters, I gave them very few restrictions. That was no accident. I wanted to see what they came up with. In fact, I commented on some of it on another thread when the campaign began months ago. They were like kids in a candy store. I think without gm oversight, Hero System can bring out the very best in players and the very wost at the same time. It encourages them to stretch the limits of their creativity. Some, however, saw it as a way to get anything they wanted within the points they were allotted, common sense and concept be damned. Yes, I know that this can happen with any game but with a game this modular it seems more likely, at least from my experience. The least experienced player actually made the most sensible character while the most experienced, who has been gaming as long as I have, made the most munckiny character he could come up with. Fortunately, he didn't know the system well enough do any real damage. Don't take this as a criticism of the system; it isn't. After all, I did say, "here are your points, go to it." I was just emphasizing the greater need for gm oversight.

 

I like how things were priced in the game. The creator definitely erred on the side of making things more expensive to be sure they were balanced (Damage Shield was a bit overkill). However, I thought being wealthy was really cheap but I guess it isn't really a big deal if one is expected to spend experience points to buy everything. It seems that wealth was meant to represent a person who can live a life of luxury as opposed to someone who could buy really good stuff (e.g. vehicles, bases, weapons, etc.). I just have a hard time telling someone that you can't use that gun that you can afford to buy at Walmart (or wherever) because you didn't spend points on it. I have come to despise the phrase "in genre" because a lot of people have used it as an excuse to totally throw common sense out of the window. I did work out a suitable solution, so that was an easy hurdle to jump.

 

Two things that really stood out were the length of combat and adjustment powers (particularly healing). Combat was exhausting. While I did read the rule book from cover to cover and re-read some sections, it definitely takes lots of practice to get things down to a point where everything flows smoothly. Combat was slowed down by me occasionally having to looking something up more-so out of second guessing myself than actually not knowing the rule. At least I knew the book well enough to know where to look up the rule. That saves a lot of time. Counting damage or effect results also seemed to slow things down a bit. My players, two of whom were fairly new to roleplaying, counted a bit slow. In spite of the length, the fights were really fun, just mentally exhausting. The length of time was particularly noticeable when combat didn't involve everyone at the table (separated players). However, the others that weren't there got so involved in what the other player(s) was going through in terms of his die rolls and the action itself that it wasn't as bad as it could have been. There were also times that I felt overwhelmed and forgot to do things like deduct the bad guy's Endurance, knockback, etc. As I got used to it, I made less mistakes. I also made a flowchart for myself. The system seems very consistent and logical which made it easier. I have gmed many systems over the years but this one is definitely the most time consuming and hardest (as in tedious) when it comes to combat. Still, I drew on my experience to find ways to make it a bit easier for myself. I think that it just takes time. I think that if the time is invested it will be well-rewarded in the long run.

 

Adjustment powers were a bit of a bookkeeping pain. I really thought healing was annoying. I found myself having to keep up with how many points did the healer use on so and so at what time. It was just a nightmare. Does anyone have any house rules for healing?

 

Overall, it was a positive experience. We all had a good time. I love the mechanics, the precision, and the detail. Most of the answers to questions are right there for you. You know exactly what can and cannot be done with a given build and I really like that. However, it is the most exhausting system to run that I have ever seen. There is a lot to keep up with. Still, I think that it is something that will get much easier and things will become second nature with practice.

[Alibear]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

If I was you I wouldn't worry too much about the fine details in the middle of a fight. I certainly wouldn't worry about end unless the character (non pc) pushes often or has extra end powers.

 

Tell the players up front that if after a fight starts and if you don't know a rule, you'll make a reasonable decision and check the official rule later.

 

 

About the buying real things with money and not points; remeber that these things are just that, real things and break easily or come with a whole host of real world limitations.

 

Richboy wants to buy a handgun? Sounds reasonable, sure why not. Does Richboy have a weapon permit? Does he have a Weapon familiarity? What hapens in a fight to those expensive cell phones and radios? etc.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

Wow, so many things to comment on. A few off the top:

 

Herophiles will tell you that in a Superheroic game, everything must be bought. In other words, everything a Superhero owns is just a special effect of the system; the super vehicle can be anything from a bike to a mecha, what it appears as is the SFX, but they have to drop the points, and then finalize the build with DM approval.

 

In a HEROIC game, wealth becomes far more important. It's one of the ancient Batman arguments. Is he Superheroic, thusly having to drop points on every vehicle, etc.? Or is he Heroic, and his billions of dollars keep him rolling in gear? You can go around like this for a while. Genre conventions aside, the easiest way to determine who has to spend points where is to look at the style of game you're running. Supers generally pay points for everything. One of the running jokes is that your average person is a 300 point character. They have a base (home), a vehicle (car), telepathy (cell phone), contacts, and so on. A super doesn't get a cell phone, for reasons we have yet to establish. Oh, right. Genre.

 

Combat can be taxing - the trick is to undo the damage done by d20. You're no longer restrained to "swing" on your turn. Now you can move, twist, dodge, dive for cover (as aborts), run while shooting, backflip, make called shots. All sorts of insanity. The system is far more flexible. "I wanna knock his lights out" has an in-game comparative: Haymaker. It's no longer just flavor text, and that's huge.

 

I'm hungry. I'll continue my rambling later.

[Edsel]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

Hero combat can be time consuming. I have run battles with 8 or fewer characters in which one turn of combat took 30 minutes or more to play out.

 

Of course when all of the players are throughtly familiar with the rules I have also played games with over a dozen characters in which an entire turn of combat was played out in as little as 5 minutes.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

You'll also find combats will go more smoothly and quickly as you and your players get more experienced with the system and you don't have to look stuff up so often. It can help to make a list of characters and villains in order of DEX and SPD ranks so you can tell the appropriate player "Wonder Dude, you're next, so figure out what you're going to do next Phase while I see what Bad Guy does this Phase.)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

Welcome to the HERO experience, Zephrosyne. I think that you'll find it worth the investment.

 

I concur that the system will become more comfortable, and faster, for you as you and your group become more familiar with it. However, if you haven't done so already, I would recommend looking up "Nine Ways To Speed Up Combat" in the index of the rulebook. Adding some of those suggestions could significantly accelerate the process. Another useful method is to apply the Standard Effect rule to damage dice. While you lose the randomness of damage results, tallying it up becomes a breeze when every die is the same. I would recommend that you at least consider it for Adjustment Powers, to simplify your bookkeeping.

 

BTW from this page in the "Free Stuff" section of the website, you can download a two-page PDF which summarizes the rules and mechanics of combat. This might make a handy reference handout for your players (and yourself).

 

Good luck, and please keep us informed of your progress.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

On Combat;

 

Invest in the Hero System Combat Handbook. It is by far one of the most useful RPG Purchases I have ever made.

 

After that it just comes down to experience with running combat to get it to go smoothly and quickly.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

True dat. I can EASILY second the Combat Handbook as a phenomenal supplement.

[CourtFool]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

That being said' date=' I think that the level of detail in Hero System was a bit much at times (damage). [/quote']

 

It can be intimidating at first. Killing vs. Normal BODY vs. STUN. However, I find this a better fit for me personally. Hero already has mechanics in place for knocking someone unconscious without having to nearly kill them. Many other systems feel like some sort of ‘subdual’ damage was tacked on as an afterthought. I also think the range of ‘Hit Points’ is a better fit. 10-20+ just seems easier to keep under control opposed to 2-150+. This seems all the more apparent when weapon damage does not also scale up.

 

I was just emphasizing the greater need for gm oversight.

 

Agreed. More options = more opportunities for abuse

 

However' date=' I thought being wealthy was really cheap but I guess it isn't really a big deal if one is expected to spend experience points to buy everything. [/quote']

 

Another thing I like about Hero is that it seems to intrinsically encourage non-combat focused characters. Cost seems directly relevant to combat usefulness. Wealth does not directly relate in combat so it is cheaper than say some Combat Skill Levels or Armor.

 

I just have a hard time telling someone that you can't use that gun that you can afford to buy at Wal-Mart (or wherever) because you didn't spend points on it.

 

Having to spend points to buy everything is a mis-conception. In a Superheroic campaign you are expected to spend points for any item which is consistently used in game. I believe the definition of what is consistently used in game is left vague enough for the GM to make the final decision. If you search the forums you should find a few threads discussing this very topic.

 

Personally, I watch for play balance. I do not charge character points for cell phones. I do not think any of my groups have ever wanted some sort of team communicator that they all had to pay points for. Guns are rarely a problem either since most of the characters in my games have more powerful attacks and more than enough armor to stop anything short of a .50.

 

I think it really comes down to balance. Is it fair to charge Flame Boy for his Fire Ball ability while Gun Girl gets her .45 for free? If this is not an issue in your campaigns, feel free to ignore it. Just don’t come crying to us when Flame Boy’s player starts complaining.

 

Two things that really stood out were the length of combat and adjustment powers (particularly healing).

 

Agreed again. More options = more time. As already suggested, I would go with standard effect for a little while until you get more familiarized with things. It would remove another die roll and a lot of the counting.

 

Healing can be a problem. It is either too powerful or completely nerfed.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

Combat can be taxing - the trick is to undo the damage done by d20. You're no longer restrained to "swing" on your turn.

 

Yeah, it's a real shame d20 doesn't have ways to trip, bull rush, charge, or disarm, or help your teammates out with positioning or an assisting move.

[Insaniac99]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

Yeah' date=' it's a real shame d20 doesn't have ways to trip, bull rush, charge, or disarm, or help your teammates out with positioning or an assisting move.[/quote']

 

 

see I've only played the early versions of D20 and a few games that use d20 mechanics, so is this sarcasm or not?

[CourtFool]

Your argument is weak, as are you.

 

I thought there was a feat for bull rush.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

It is sarcasm, however, I was speaking broadly and lately CC has been a staunch defender of d20 in general (although I'm really not one it needs to be defended from, but). To justify the post, though, he is correct. There are other combat manuevers in d20 than "attack" and "cast" but generally speaking, fights break down to stand & swing.

 

To follow up with more detailed information, however, the point I was making could be more accuately said as "while there are other options in d20, most fights boil down to stand & swing, with the occassional grapple attack thrown in for flavor." That's just the way the fights go. Further, while there are options in d20, they're generally kludgey, and lack many of the defensive options in HERO (as well as the system flexibility as a whole).

[Zephrosyne]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

First of all, I would like to say thank you everyone for replying to this thread. Lord Liaden, thanks for the link. Believe it or not, I had designed something like that for myself. I actually created a check list for when each person acted. It really helped a good bit. This pdf will definitely will help move things along a bit. I did check out the Nine Ways To Speed Up Combat on page 380 during the campaign. Other than Be Prepared, which I already was to the best of my ability, the others didn't really appeal to me. The ones that I came the closest to allowing were Abolish The Speed Chart and Use Average Damage but I decided against both. I had also considered Standard Effect for damage/effect rolls. Truthfully, I seemed to have more problems with long fights than my players, so it wasn't as big an issue as it could have been. Like I said it was more noticeable when my players were separated, but they actually immersed themselves into what was going on with their fellow player(s). I will also have to look into the combat book; although, I must say that the new book Ultimate Skill has me really excited. I would love to have skills more detailed. That would be a true gem and a welcomed sourcebook.

 

CourtFool, I think that you and I (and Alibear) have very similar ideologies as far as paying for everything is concerned. I also allow things like cellphones and regular guns as long as they as the character can afford it. However, I also reserve the right to subject the free object to real world standards (similar to the Limitation, Real Weapon). You know, stuff like no signal for cell phones, cars breaking down, etc. I wouldn't do stuff like that to things that characters paid for, barring any Limitations. Also, I wasn't clear about when I said the system was over-complex when it came to damage. I was actually referring to when adding Strength, weapons, and maneuvers to figure out the final damage a character can do. That is what I found unnecessarily complex. By the time I got done with how this adds with that for a Heroic or Superheroic campaign I had a migraine. I understood it (after a few re-reads); I just thought that it could have been simplified a lot more.

 

One other thing that I liked that I forgot to mention earlier was that I only changed two rules in the entire book. That speaks volumes for the compatibility of my gming style and Hero System. One change involved Damage Shield and another involving Mental Powers. Now, there were things that I didn't allow (e.g. Variable Power Pools, Filthy Rich, and Multi-Power Attacks). Furthermore, I did use some of the optional rules (a dozen or so)given such as The Size, Mass, and Leaping option on page 35. I just didn't use any options that slowed down play (e.g. Bleeding). In my opinion, not allowing things and optional rules are not rule changes even though they maybe house rules. I just made a point to give the players a typed copy of these changes.

 

All that being said, I am still trying to figure out a better way to do the Healing powers. Thanks again.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

All that being said, I am still trying to figure out a better way to do the Healing powers. Thanks again.

 

Seriously? I just use the Simplified Healing and forget about the 're-use duration' bit and the 'maximum effect' bit. I usually limit it in some other way though, charges or the like.

 

There is, of course, the Decreased Re-Use Duration advantage, and in that you ignore the Maximum Effect rule. That's probably your best bet.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

Gadget Pools aren't just for gadgeteers; they are a good way to integrate "points in Wealth" characters into the "everything costs points" Superheroic genre. A good list of everyday items with HERO stats is handy, and I think I would still require a small arms WF for using that Wal-Mart rifle.

 

To avoid abuses, treat the gadgets as personal foci not universal. They still work if the wealthy characters hands them out to other players, but they become subject to the "free items are worth what you paid for them" rule, and tend to go away when AoE attacks arrive.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

That seems like a good a fair appraisal of the system -- or to put it another way, your experience jives with my own experience way back when I first started running the HERO System so it seems good and fair to me

 

 

To address a few of the points you made:

 

A) Points for Equipment: My opinions on that matter are summarized here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/HEROEquipmentDebunk.htm

 

Combat takes a long time:

 

Yes it can, but it doesnt have to. Obviously experience on the part of both the GM and the Players helps ease this pain. The complexity of characters and the scale of effects involved also have a big impact on this. Characters that are straightforward and kind of vanilla are easy to run and resolve quickly, where as more complex, sophisticated, and/or bizarre characters take longer and require more book checking.

 

The most helpful tool I have found for keeping the game moving is just being strict with players that dawdle -- if they can't make a decision on what they are doing when it's their turn to act then their character just automatically Holds until the player can make up their mind. If they Hold too long (into their next Phase) then too bad, they just lost an action. It's amazing how much more proactive players become once they get it.

 

C) Counting damage / effect:

 

This I've never really got as an issue. Every game has its effect counting peculiarities -- whether that be dice or something else. I really don't think that the HERO System's method is any more or less difficult or time consuming than most other games.

 

Counting STUN or effect is just a simple matter of grouping dice into "10"s, and counting BODY on normal damage is a simple matter of taking the number of dice and subtracting 1 for 1's and adding 1 for 6's and 1's cancel 6's. So if you rolled 12d6 and got: 6,6,5,5,4,4,3,3,2,2,1,1 it's 12 +/- = 12 BODY, if you rolled 12d6 and got: 6,6,6,6,4,4,3,3,2,2,2,2 then its 12 + 4 = 16 BODY. Quick and easy.

 

D) Tracking END:

 

This can be something of a pain if your players are not conscientious about it, but it is an important aspect of the game as it is one of the most significant control factors that limit characters from taking high yield actions constantly. It is also an internal balancer in that as the number of points in characters rise the number of active points in abilities typically also rise, and thus the amount of END it takes to go all out also rises. This forces characters to spend points on raising their END, or applying Reduced END, or buying an END Reserve, or investing in some other END managing scheme.

 

There are a couple of methods to managing END, particularly for NPC's:

 

First off is to just apply Reduced END or Charges liberally in power builds. Especially for players that can't seem to keep track. By not keeping track they are in effect giving themselves 0 END on their abilities, so you might as well reflect it in their character builds.

 

Another method is to look at what END is supposed to do -- its supposed to limit how long a character can sustain their abilities. So, sit down and figure out for a given character how much END it costs them to do their typical Phase. If they usually run their Force Field, Fly, maintain Invisibility or Desolid, or some other Constant Power, and launch their favorite attack how much END is that? Write it down so the player doesnt have to keep adding it up every Phase.

 

If you want to take it a little further multiply that amount by their SPD and subtract their Recovery. This number represents how much END loss per TURN the character will have on average. If the character doesn't get knocked out (and thus have their END go to 0) or activate some kind of high END ability that represents how much END to subtract after their Post Segment 12 Recovery -- when all else fails if the player forgets or can't be bothered to keep track per Phase this is at least a rough means of making sure END isnt getting tossed totally out the window.

 

For NPC's you can take this even further. Consider END in some increment that is meaningful based upon the typical actions of the character and divide their END by that number. Make a little box row, giving the character 1 box per increment of END you have measured. Then look at their abilities and track how many boxes a particular action requires. Whenever the NPC does that action check off that many boxes. Divide the character's REC by the same increment; whenever the character recovers just add that many more boxes to their row. If a character's actions cost less than the increment being measured, then whenever you feel like enough fractions have accumulated just give them an extra box. If the character gets KO'd at some point and drops to 0 END, they lose all their boxes save what they can recover.

 

This method basically abstracts END costs; the time savings are realized because it prevents you from having to do any real math. If you do the abstracting before the game starts this can really speed up the management of NPC's

 

Here is a for instance:

 

Character A has a 12d6 EB which costs 6 END, movement that costs 2 END if he half moves, and his FF has 40 AP plus 1/2 END so it costs 2 END. That works out to 10 END per Phase, so the GM divides the character's 50 END by 10, which works out to 5 boxes. Each Phase the character attacks the GM just checks off a box.

 

The character has a 10 REC, so whenever he would get a REC the GM adds a box. If the character doesn't attack then the GM draws a line thru the box showing they only used half the box, or alternately if they do that twice he adds another box.

 

If the character has other actions they can take, the GM just determines how many boxes it costs to use that ability by taking the total END spent in a Phase when using that ability and divide by the same number (10 in this case).

 

E) Combat Handbook:

 

Ill add my endorsement to this supplement. My last game I didnt even take the main rule book to the sessions -- I used the Combat Handbook. If I absolutely had to look up something related to character design I would use one of the player's copies. Its much less unweildy and since it collates optional rules from the genre books that were printed up to its own release it is very very handy.

[Kabluey]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

Killer Shrike has a lot of good advice. I'll just offer two little tid-bits in addition to what he said:

 

Rolling Damage: For normal damage, I found it simplest just to assume an average BODY. That is, let people roll their dice and count STUN, but always assume 1 BODY per die. While KS is correct that counting STUN or counting BODY is pretty straightforward, I find that having to do both all the time can slow things up quite a bit. (Of course, if you're game is using more Killing Attacks than Normal Attacks, then this may not be much of an issue. For my 4-color Champions game, where 90+% of the attacks were Normal, I'd guess it saved a lot of time. For even faster die rolls, though, consider a computer die roller, if possible.

 

END for NPC's: I never keep track of END for NPC's. But I do try to keep END in mind while playing the NPC. For instance, if I have an NPC with a really big attack, I might in my mind imagine that it would take a lot of END and thus only use sparingly. I wouldn't necessarily build all the NPC's with 0 END or Charges, however, just because of Pushing. Though again I only Push sparingly. Basically, I just manage NPC END through more of a "feel" appoach rather than tracking numbers.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

Invest in the Hero System Combat Handbook.

Yup - best book I almost didn't buy.

 

Also' date=' I wasn't clear about when I said the system was over-complex when it came to damage. I was actually referring to when adding Strength, weapons, and maneuvers to figure out the final damage a character can do. That is what I found unnecessarily complex. By the time I got done with how this adds with that for a Heroic or Superheroic campaign I had a migraine. [/quote']

One simple trick is to have as much of this as possible added up ahead of time and written on the character sheet. Basically same idea as KS' advice for tracking END. So if a character has a 1d6 HKA that is 2d6 with STR, write it down as 2d6K (with a note that it's 1d6 w/o STR) assuming that he'll be using his STR most of the time. You can do this for a few commonly used maneuvers as well without overloading the character sheet.

 

Basically' date=' I just manage NPC END through more of a "feel" appoach rather than tracking numbers.[/quote']

Ditto. In fact, once you get the hang of the rules you'll probably find there's a lot of stuff you can handle by feel more than by precise tracking.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: Well, I finally gmed Hero System (long)

 

Thanks, everyone, for all of the pointers. I am currently working on the background for my next campaign. The intentMy group had decided to use Hero System, so we'll see how things pan out. Thanks again.