Block

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Block

 

Yes, but it's a suggestion that cheats players out of utility they've paid points for (sometimes large numbers of points); a GM should think carefuly about when and if to take it.

 

Personally, I ignore it.

 

Just out of curiousity,

Do you allow it to be combined with moveby and movethrough?

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

Just out of curiousity,

Do you allow it to be combined with moveby and movethrough?

 

That hasn't come up in play, but I probably would, certainly if it were only a one or two time power trick. However, based on the rules for advantages on martial maneuvers, you could claim that adding the advantage to the extra dice from Movement has not been paid for, and refuse to allow those dice to add to damage from advantaged STR. Paying the difference would fix the problem.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Block

 

I do feel differently. How well the attack is controlled is reflected more by Dex IMO' date=' and that is already taken care of in the Block mechanics by the difference in OCV. You don't simply put your weapon/limb up to your target and push with all your might; you use your strength to [b']swing[/b] and put kinetic energy into the weapon, and that can be difficult to control once built up.

 

BUT...with a higher STRENGTH to guide it, is it not easier to control? a person with STR 10 trying to swing a Zweihander (Large two-handed sword for those who don't know) has a more diffiulct time than someone with a STR 20. This is why Str minimums are in the book. But an ogre should be able to use it almost like a dagger because of their STR.

 

Try taking a big heavy stick and swinging it with all your might' date=' and then attempt to instantly stop it or change its direction to a perpendicular arc in mid-swing. The more force you put into an attack, the more committed you are to that attack. We use that fact in martial arts all the time.[/quote']

 

True that....now, someone with a 30 STR does the same swing. The difference is that they do not have to move more of their body mass into it to counter the weigh of the item or their frame. Their movements are more absolute and less available to knock of center by the use of leverage.

 

(And as for redirecting' date=' the idea is to go as much with the original direction of the attack as possible. Even if the attacker is continuing to put force behind the blow, that force is likely committed to the direction of the swing, not to keeping it from deviating minorly from side to side.)[/quote']

 

I am quite familiar with the concept, thank you. *smile* Sometimes you even help accentuate their movement to purposefully throw them further off center as if it was a wild swing. The point is economy of motion. The least amount of force needed to throw a target off center. I've sat through a couple of Aikido demonstrations and had a Jeet Kun Do instructor for a brief time.

 

The key to my point is, someone with lesser strength is easier to knock off target than someone with a higher Str. Their force is more directed. While I will agree that DEX is the main factor, the fact (in my opinion) remains that higher strength is harder to budge.

 

YMMV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Block

 

BUT...with a higher STRENGTH to guide it' date=' is it not easier to control? a person with STR 10 trying to swing a Zweihander (Large two-handed sword for those who don't know) has a more diffiulct time than someone with a STR 20. This is why Str minimums are in the book. But an ogre should be able to use it almost like a dagger because of their STR. [/quote']

 

But if higher STR makes it easier to acurately weild that Zwiehander, shouldn't the character be more able to strike accurately as well, which would imply an increase to OCV, which would itself reduce the likelihood of a successful Block?

 

If you view that superstrong character's STR also providing exceptional accuracy, you should be buying up his OCV (likely through levels, unless you believe his DCV, reaction time and DEX skills should also improve). In failiing to buy up your OCV, you have not purchased all the abilities your concept would imply. How is that the Block maneuver's fault?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Block

 

That hasn't come up in play' date=' but I probably would, certainly if it were only a one or two time power trick. However, based on the rules for advantages on martial maneuvers, you could claim that adding the advantage to the extra dice from Movement has not been paid for, and refuse to allow those dice to add to damage from advantaged STR. Paying the difference would fix the problem.[/quote']

 

Well,

now your getting into Advantaged STR vs. Advantaged HA territory.

 

Assume a 60 STR character

 

HA 6d6 with +1/2 Advantage costs 30 points

or

Naked +1/2 Advantage on 60 active STR costs 30 points

 

They seem equivalant right?

 

Not when you put the HA in a multipower (the rules frown on Naked Advantages in multipowers)

 

30 Multipower: Uber-Punching (45 pool) HTH Attacks (-1/2)

3u HA 6d6 AOE 1 Hex Accurate (+1/2)

3u HA 6d6 AP (+1/2)

3u HA 6d6 with 0 End (+1/2)

 

Note that the 1st and 2nd slots will do 12d6 plus advantages with STR (when limited to 30 active used). However, the 3rd slot with Reduced End (still a (+1/2) Advantage) does 18d6 when combined with STR since the advantage does not affect STR and therefore is not restricted to the advantaged HA doubling rules.

 

The rules certainly favor the HA approach since it does allow maneuver and velocity based damage to be added with advantages (although it suggests pro-rating velocity based on the value of the advantages; +1 in Advantages on the HA would only get +1 DC/10" movement).

 

Regarding AOE 1 Hex (Accurate), I think the Block option is suggested since otherwise it is a near automatic hit even when combined with OCV penalties from movebys and movethroughs.

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

Regarding AOE 1 Hex (Accurate), I think the Block option is suggested since otherwise it is a near automatic hit even when combined with OCV penalties from movebys and movethroughs.

 

Yes, it's a near automatic hit. That's why the character paid those extra points in the first place.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Block

 

But if higher STR makes it easier to acurately weild that Zwiehander' date=' shouldn't the character be more able to strike accurately as well, which would imply an increase to OCV, which would itself reduce the likelihood of a successful Block?[/quote']

 

Not more accurate, more absolute. In otherwords, there was more driven force behind the blow as it moved through the air. It raced to its destination with more force needed to knock it off its path. Now whether it hits the target at its final destination is the subject of hand-eye coordination, speed and reflexes. How much force or damage applied is a product of the force that the blow was pushed to its target by and where and at what angle it struck.

 

If you view that superstrong character's STR also providing exceptional accuracy' date=' ...*snip*[/quote']

 

It isn't. My assertion is that a more forceful blow is harder to push off course. I also asserted that a LOW strength or lower strength necessary to move the mass of what was being used as a weapon lead to LESS accurate blows, thus a Strength Minimum and an OCV bonus for using over-heavy weapons for your Strength.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

BUT...with a higher STRENGTH to guide it, is it not easier to control? a person with STR 10 trying to swing a Zweihander (Large two-handed sword for those who don't know) has a more diffiulct time than someone with a STR 20. This is why Str minimums are in the book. But an ogre should be able to use it almost like a dagger because of their STR.

 

Funny you should mention STR Mins here. As a point of fact, the 20 STR character would be able to swing the sword more accurately, because the 10 STR character takes an OCV penalty (as well as a DC penalty) for using a weapon with a STR min higher than his STR. This would make an attack from the 20 STR character, using that weapon, more difficult to Block or Dodge or otherwise avoid using nearly any game mechanic.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

Not more accurate, more absolute. In otherwords, there was more driven force behind the blow as it moved through the air. It raced to its destination with more force needed to knock it off its path. Now whether it hits the target at its final destination is the subject of hand-eye coordination, speed and reflexes. How much force or damage applied is a product of the force that the blow was pushed to its target by and where and at what angle it struck.

 

Not to tread even more onto your discource with Hugh, but I don't believe "absolute" is a good word to use. Or at least no better than accurate. The power behind any blow had absolutely no relavence if the defender isn't doing anything to interrupt its path. There are some blocking moves in certain martial arts styles that are even based on the idea of helping the attack get to where it's aimed, just without the defender being there at the time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Block

 

Not to tread even more onto your discource with Hugh' date=' but I don't believe "absolute" is a good word to use. Or at least no better than accurate. The power behind any blow had absolutely no relavence if the defender isn't doing anything to interrupt its path. There are some blocking moves in certain martial arts styles that are even based on the idea of [i']helping[/i] the attack get to where it's aimed, just without the defender being there at the time.

 

As DR says - some blocks are intended to help the blow along its way, while getting out of that way, rather than let the opponent shift his aim slightly and still connect.

 

But this has been the crux of disagreement between the Rkane Way and the Standard Hero Way from the outset. Rkane's objections, and his house rule proposals, are all based around a disagreement that Block ought, in a "gritty and realistic" campaign, to have any SFX other than interposing a body part to absorb the blow. If that were the only possible SFX for Block, I aree that a weaker target could not avoid damage using the Block. The fact that Blocks are also techniques for redirection, misdirection and avoidance, however, tells me that's not the only SFX in any game classifying itself as more "realistic" than the Hero System's cinematic rules.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Block

 

As DR says - some blocks are intended to help the blow along its way' date=' while getting out of that way, rather than let the opponent shift his aim slightly and still connect.[/quote']

 

And in the system I propose, this would be a well executed Block with more DC's reduced than the power of the blow becuase the Blocker was able either to surpass the Attacker in DC's either with sheer Martial arts DC's, by an edge gained by a good roll from high skill or a combination of the two.

 

But this has been the crux of disagreement between the Rkane Way and the Standard Hero Way from the outset. Rkane's objections' date=' and his house rule proposals, are all based around a disagreement that Block ought, in a "gritty and realistic" campaign, to have any SFX other than interposing a body part to absorb the blow.[/quote']

 

 

Either a body part, shield, or weapon, yes.

 

 

If that were the only possible SFX for Block' date=' I agree that a weaker target could not avoid damage using the Block. The fact that Blocks are also techniques for redirection, misdirection and avoidance, however, tells me that's not the only SFX in any game classifying itself as more "realistic" than the Hero System's cinematic rules.[/quote']

 

IMHO:Avoidance is best suited to either high DCV or Dodge, redirection is superior Damage Class Reduction in Block, Misdirection for Fient or trickery. But, that is just an opinion.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

IMHO:Avoidance is best suited to either high DCV or Dodge, redirection is superior Damage Class Reduction in Block, Misdirection for Fient or trickery. But, that is just an opinion.

 

As far as SFX are concerned, I agree completely. The mechanics are distinctly different in the game effect though. According to your way, you can never avoid an attack while gaining the combat advantage of going first regardless of DEX if both attacker and defender act on the same Segment together in each of their next Phases (at the sacrifice of only applying the avoidance action to applying to a limited number of attacks). That might work or make sense to you and that's okay. To me, I don't like that kind of limitation. Might as well as say the Strike maneuver can only apply to punches and require Martial Arts maneuvers to be able to kick or head-butt.

[Alibear]

Re: Block

 

In my karate class I've been taught that you block by first moving your feet not by sticking your arm in the way.

Move, redirect, counter-attack. Perfect example of a block in the hero system.

At higher levels you and leave out the redirect and go straight to interupt instead of blocking.

 

In the real world TM really strong people are slower moving and easier to block than people with just a little muscle mass.

 

Check out how fast lightweight boxers punch compared with heavyweights.

 

YMMV

 

Golden heroes had a glancing blow(half damage) if you failed your block by one or two points IIRC Perhaps you could do something similar.

 

If you just manage to block or fail your block by one you recieve half damage or sumsuch?

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

In the real world TM really strong people are slower moving and easier to block than people with just a little muscle mass.

 

Bruce Lee disagreed.

 

So does every textbook and study I've seen on the subject.

 

The idea that stronger = slower is a fallacy. Strength training is used to improve speed and performance in almost every sport, including martial arts.

 

A related note: Muscle Mass does not equal Strength. Muscle mass contributes to strength, but there are 62 kg Olympic lifters who can clean and jerk well over 120kg.

[Alibear]

Re: Block

 

Shorter limbs often appear to move faster.

 

I never considered that. Do they actually move faster, slower or at the same pace? Do we have recorded times of how long a punch takes to land?

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

I never considered that. Do they actually move faster' date=' slower or at the same pace? Do we have recorded times of how long a punch takes to land?[/quote']

 

Boxing isn't my sport, but the numbers are out there somewhere. I'll see if an EBSCOhost search turns up anything.

 

EDIT: Nope, lots of articles on injuries, nothing on punch speeds. Interesting topic though.

[Alibear]

Re: Block

 

There is a difference between the fastest people on earth physiques, 100M runners and the World Strongest Men.

 

Some are built for speed and some are built for strength. Ben Johnson didn't take up Stronman competions when he was banned from athletics and Jeff Capes didn't win any olympic medals.

[Alibear]

Re: Block

 

Boxing isn't my sport, but the numbers are out there somewhere. I'll see if an EBSCOhost search turns up anything.

 

EDIT: Nope, lots of articles on injuries, nothing on punch speeds. Interesting topic though.

 

Fascinating in my opinion. I love how what I struggle to learn in the dojo can be built with Hero skills & powers and which maneuvers simulate it so perfectly.

 

Is it any wonder I always seem to gravitate towards characters who can fight?

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

There is a difference between the fastest people on earth physiques' date=' 100M runners and the World Strongest Men.[/quote']

 

Olympic sprinters use strength training as part of their programs. Their lower body strength compares favorably against Olympic lifters.

 

World's strongest man competitors aren't trained specifically as runners and are carrying upper body mass that runners don't need, but would still generally perform well in short sprints.

 

Some are built for speed and some are built for strength.

 

Speed and strength contribute to one-another.

 

Ben Johnson didn't take up Stronman competions when he was banned from athletics

 

Why would he? There's very little money or prestige in it. It's also difficult to cross from one sport to another, though some manage it.

 

and Jeff Capes didn't win any olympic medals.

 

True, he didn't. Strength is only one part of performance.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

I agree that strong=slow is a common falicy, but it is based on fact. The more muscle mass one has, the more effort it takes to move that mass, but once moving, such mass takes just as much effort to stop. This isn't to say that a strongman with lots of muscle mass is slow, just that he has to work harder to move as fast as someone with fewer muscles. What this boils down to is that heavy people are slower than lighter people, not that stronger people are slower than weak people. As has been pointed out, body weight and muscle mass it not the only factor of one's strength. The only thing that is mostly true is that more muscle mass give a person more strength potential than less muscle mass (which would then give them less speed potential), but as I said, muscle mass isn't the only factor of strength.

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

as I said' date=' muscle mass isn't the only factor of strength.[/quote']

 

To me, this is the key point when discussing the issue without going into muscle fiber types, neural factors, types of strength, specificity, etc.

 

There are incredibly strong people (depending on the movement or task) without all that much muscle mass, and people hauling around a lot of muscle mass who perform poorly at a given movement. On average the athlete with more muscle mass is probably stronger, but it's not a given.

 

If an athlete can gain an increase in real strength beyond the load imposed by any accompanying increase in mass, he will see an increase in speed.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

I remembering watching a documentary of physical strength on one of those Discovery channels a while back. There are a whole lot of different strength types that athletes alone define themselves by. The "strongest man in the world" is a matter of how the strength is used, and how the strength is used determines how the athlete trains. Even "strength training" means different things to different athletes. For a body builder, it's all about toning and bulking; lots of really good looking muscle mass, but very little effort is given to actually using that mass. A body builder built like Atlas probably isn't much stronger than the average construction worker. A weight lifter however, is all about, well, lifting weights. His body isn't toned or sculpted or even looking muscular. He's just large, with really thick legs and heavy arms. Probably can't punch worth a damn. Maybe if you want a door pushed in, but getting those arms moving in a way to hit a moving target that isn't laid out motionless at his feet is gonna be a chore. But if you want him to put something over his head, he's your man. And then there's your runners, jumpers, throwers, rowers, swimmers, skaters and gynmists who all have their own type of strength specialized to their sport.

 

And then we have me, who's just rambling on about strength in a blocking thread. And rambling is a class of strengh all by itself.

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

A weight lifter however' date=' is all about, well, lifting weights. His body isn't toned or sculpted or even looking muscular. He's just large, with really thick legs and heavy arms. Probably can't punch worth a damn. Maybe if you want a door pushed in, but getting those arms moving in a way to hit a moving target that isn't laid out motionless at his feet is gonna be a chore. But if you want him to put something over his head, he's your man.[/quote']

 

A 100 kg Power Lifter isn't going to punch as hard as a 100 kg Karateka, all else being equal. He might not even punch as hard as an 80 kg Karateka. That said, he's still going to punch damn hard compared to a 100 kg couch potato. There is crossover between various types of strength.

 

Considering how many power lifters are also martial artists, the lines get even more blurred.

 

However, it is true that "strength" breaks down in all sorts of ways as you get into sports training. Speed-Strength, Strength-Endurance, Explosive-Strength, Support-Strength, sport specific movements, etc, etc.

 

So you see, at 1 point per point Strength is clearly under priced.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

As far as SFX are concerned' date=' I agree completely. The mechanics are distinctly different in the game effect though. According to your way, you can [i']never[/i] avoid an attack while gaining the combat advantage of going first regardless of DEX if both attacker and defender act on the same Segment together in each of their next Phases (at the sacrifice of only applying the avoidance action to applying to a limited number of attacks).

Right. Or have a pretty decent chance at preventing one or two attacks against you, but be as open as usual to all others (Dodge works against all attacks, remember?).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

Right. Slow twitch muscles vs. fast twitch. Basically, weightlifters train to be able to exert a huge amount of force over a short period of time. Runners train to be able to exert a good (but not huge, even for sprinters) amount of force over a (comparably) long period of time. Enough weightlifting training can kill the performance of a swimmer or runner. Such athletes approach, "strength training," in quite a different manner.

 

Where speed is concerned, I'd say it has as much to do with size as strength. Smaller fighters can easily be strong enough to do some real damage (though they might have to work pretty hard to be able to beat a larger fighter in a straight strength contest), and are naturally faster. Larger fighters have to work pretty hard to be as fast, but compensate with reach and some natural strength (because they work out slightly more just getting off the couch and walking down the block!) and such. Both have natural advantages of their own.