Block

[handleyj]

Re: Block

 

As I read this thread, I wonder about this paragraph in Fred (p 384 - 385):

 

"... However, the GM must apply common sense, dramatic sense, and considerations of game balance when determining what attacks a character can block. For example, although a character could Block a Move Through performed against him by another character, he probably can't Block a Move Through performed by a vehicle."

 

To me, trying to block The Hulk sounds like trying to block a vehicle.

 

I know it says "can block another character" but we would also assume that Spidey could block a kid on a tricycle, even though it's a vehicle.

 

So were I to run this situation in a game (Spidey tries to block Hulk), I would just say it can't be done. If I was feeling kind, I'd tell the player that. If I was feeling devious, I'd just role The Hulk's attack role, and not Spidey's block role. He just can't block The Hulk.

 

So the only decision I'd have to make in this situation is how much STR can't be blocked by another character. Obviously it would have to be relative STR. Something like you can't block a character that has double your STR.

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

Right. Slow twitch muscles vs. fast twitch.

 

That's part of it. Muscle fiber recruitment (the ability to actually call on those muscle fibers) and skill at performing a particular movement actually play more of a role in sports performance. Steroid Billy may be carrying around a huge amount of fast twitch muscle mass, but he's not going to hit a baseball that much further unless he's trained in how to use it.

 

Enough weightlifting training can kill the performance of a swimmer or runner.

 

I'd say that incorrect weightlifting training can interfere with performance in some sports, and it may not always have that many benefits. Olympic sprinters in particular tend to work with the Snatch, the Clean, and various types of Squats and Deadlifts. Upper body pressing movements might be a waste of time depending on the athlete, and at any rate adding mass would not be the goal of such training. I've never looked into weight training for swimmers.

 

Such athletes approach, "strength training," in quite a different manner.

 

As compared to weight lifters, true, as do martial artists. Weight Training is easy to point to, but it's only one aspect of Strength Training.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Block

 

"... However, the GM must apply common sense, dramatic sense, and considerations of game balance when determining what attacks a character can block. For example, although a character could Block a Move Through performed against him by another character, he probably can't Block a Move Through performed by a vehicle."

 

To me, trying to block The Hulk sounds like trying to block a vehicle.

 

I know it says "can block another character" but we would also assume that Spidey could block a kid on a tricycle, even though it's a vehicle.

 

So were I to run this situation in a game (Spidey tries to block Hulk), I would just say it can't be done. If I was feeling kind, I'd tell the player that. If I was feeling devious, I'd just role The Hulk's attack role, and not Spidey's block role. He just can't block The Hulk.

 

So the only decision I'd have to make in this situation is how much STR can't be blocked by another character. Obviously it would have to be relative STR. Something like you can't block a character that has double your STR.

 

What about martial arts? High end Super Martial Artists can and do block high STR characters (Lord Mhoram, you're welcome to remind us of Karate Kid blocking Superboy here ). Do extra MA DC's anhance the ability to block? Do they reduce the target's ability to Block?

 

What about Hand Attack DC's? Do they enhance ability to Block, or reduce the target's ability to Block?

 

Using double STR (which, I acknowledge, is just an off the cuff) has issues. What of the aged 8 STR Martial Arts master, and the 20 STR Street Tough? And a 20 STR is 4x as "strong" (lift capacity) as 10 STR, but a 60 STR is 64x as strong as 30 STR, so the doubling scales poorly.

 

At the end of the day, however, it comes down to SFX of the Block. There are precious few characters who can claim the ability to catch the Hulk's fist and prevent his strike from landing through sheer physical strength. There are a lot more who could reasonably claim the ability to focus on defending themselves from the Hulk's attacks, feint, misdirect and otherwise avoid his blows actively, while being "so focused on the Hulk I didn't even notice the punk with the gun" (ie not getting +5 for Martial Dodge against all incoming attacks, but rather focusing on blocking the extreme danger).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

As I read this thread, I wonder about this paragraph in Fred (p 384 - 385):

 

"... However, the GM must apply common sense, dramatic sense, and considerations of game balance when determining what attacks a character can block. For example, although a character could Block a Move Through performed against him by another character, he probably can't Block a Move Through performed by a vehicle."

 

To me, trying to block The Hulk sounds like trying to block a vehicle.

 

While the SFX of the attack should always be a consideration, so should the SFX of the Block.

 

Regarding Vehicles, though the book doesn't specifically say it anywhere I can remember, I've always treated a Move Through as an AOE Attack. If I'm in a vehicle that's 2" wide and drive it through the hex another character is in, that character get's hit. No Block, no Dodge, no nothing. The character's only option is to Dive For Cover or use some other Power such as Desol. The Vehicle always takes full damage from such attacks though. And if the Vehicle is less than 1" in width, it can be Blocked (sometimes through the SFX of knocking it away, though more likely with the SFX of getting out of the way by stepping into a part of the hex the Vehicle isn't in).

 

On the other hand, if the Vehicle isn't moving very fast or has a lot of power behind it (low STR), a Block with the SFX of interposing might actually stop it dead, or might just leave the character on the hood and moving with it (taking no damage).

[handleyj]

Re: Block

 

First off, I'd like to mention that I'm a newb to Hero (as if you couldn't tell from my post count). So I'm ignorant of the system and appreciate the help.

 

I've only started reading the Combat section in Fred, and I'm a slow reader. But when I got to the part about Blocking, I was struck by the fact that anyone can Block anyone else, and thought I'd check the forums.

 

I think what I'm really looking for from this thread is some help in defining what my house rule will be in these situations. All the talk about the different types of strength are interesting, and certainly on topic, but I'd like to try and quantify this into some kind of a rule for when I'm playing the game.

 

Here are my thoughts on the subject so far:

 

1 - The SFX Solution

I love how The Hero System seperates SFX from the power/ability/whatever. It's a great idea. However, IMHO, I wouldn't use an SFX to redefine one "thing" into another that already has a definition. Huh? The moment you say the SFX for your Block includes the target "moving such that the attacker misses" (or as Hugh Neilson said, "...avoid his blows actively..." (emphasis mine)) then you've just made your Block into a Dodge. And that just won't sit right with me. A Block is the target forcing the attacker to miss by either dead-stopping his attack, or redirecting his attack.

 

You wouldn't define a Transform as "a blast of fire that transforms an uninjured person into a person that has 8d6 damage." Energy Blast already exists, and is defined. The same as Block and Dodge.

 

 

2 - The "Almost" Rule

It seems to me that the rule I quoted in my last post is there, and should be adhered to. Of course, the problem is that it isn't given any kind of quantitative definition. But the rule seems to allude that at some point, it is just obvious that one character can not block ... something. The example given is a character (assuming a non-Super) can not block a vehicle. So all we need is to quantify the gray area between "Obviously can block" and "Obvisouly can NOT block."

 

I love this idea! This sits with me very well, indeed. It seems like a very simple idea, and I like simple. "No, Aunt May, you can't block that armored car." "Yes, Hulk, you can block that armored car."

 

 

3 - Quantifying The Obvious

As Hugh also pointed out, the STR Table in Fred makes it hard to use it as the only measure of what can't obviously be blocked. But he mentioned DCs which made me look at the Damage Class table...hmm...this is interesting. Comparing the two tables may give us a pretty good look at what is "obvious."

 

Hugh's Aged Martial Arts Master (let's call him AMAM - Hero System loves acronyms!) has an 8 STR. He can lift a washing machine. Pretty good! I don't think I could lift a washing machine!

 

Let's also assume (and this may be a mistake) that the "Example" column on the STR table is not just things you can lift, but things you can block. When I read the "can not block a vehicle" rule, I was picturing a modern road vehicle. So going down the Example column, the first thing that matches that description is "Sportscar." STR 25.

 

So AMAM can not block a STR of 25.

 

Now we hit the problem that Hugh pointed out, the "Lift" column on this table is not very granular. But the Damage column is!

 

But alas, another problem: looking at the Damage Class Table on page 403 of Fred, the "Normal" damage column isn't a very good comparison point. The Killing column is a little better. But the "10-point" column is really perfect. So this may be another point where I'm making a mistake. But I'm going to compare the Damage Column from the STR Table to the 10-Point column on the Damage Class Table.

 

Here we go:

 

AMAM = DC3

STR 25 = DC10

 

Difference = 7 DCs

 

 

OK, let's not use Spider-Man, and Hulk, because I don't want to start an argument about what their STRs are when converted to Hero System. So I'll use some brand-new, custom heroes.

 

"The Spider" can lift 10 tons. Looking on the STR table, this is between a 40 and 45 STR, so let's give him an 8.5d6 damage.

 

Then "The Bulk" has a STR of 60 giving him a damage of 12d6.

 

Now let's compare those against the 10-Point column of the DC Table:

 

The Spider = DC17

The Bulk = DC24

 

Difference = 7 DCs

 

Very interesting!

 

 

4 - My New House Rule???

So let's get back to AMAM. Somewhere between his STR of 8 and STR 25 lies the rule I'm looking for. So let's take a look at those examples:

 

STR 10 (DC4) - Adult Human - AMAM can certainly block that.

 

STR 13 (DC5) - Refridgerator - Err...well, let's move on.

 

STR 15 (DC6) - Two men, Boar - that sounds more difficult, but not impossible for AMAM

 

STR 18 (DC7) - Floor safe - Once again, the example isn't much help here.

 

STR 20 (DC8) - Grizzly bear! - again pretty tough, but *maybe* not impossible.

 

STR 23 (DC9) - Cow, Horse - Not sure this sounds tougher than a grizzly, but:

 

STR 25 (DC10) - Sportscar - Bam! We hit the rule! Impossible!

 

Wow! I like that a lot! Starting at 3DCs above AMAM, things look a little more difficult. Let's assign him a -1 OCV for blocking that, and add -1 OCV for each DC above 3 until we hit the limit of 7 DCs. That nicely gives us a maximum penalty of -4 OCV at 6 DCs.

 

I could even decide to just keep applying -1 OCV for each DC of difference if I decided the block shouldn't be "impossible."

 

Oh! Even better: Hugh asked "Do extra MA DC's anhance the ability to block? Do they reduce the target's ability to Block?" I'd say "maybe." Nothing stopping a GM from comparing the total CV values of the combatants, and not just the STR DC. But myself, personally, I'd want to keep it simpler. Just one calculation at the start of combat (or more likly, the first time the question of a target wanting to Block a MUCH stronger opponent).

 

And of course, it should go without saying, but "...the GM must apply common sense, dramatic sense, and considerations of game balance...."

 

 

And if you read all of this...I'm sorry!

 

Feedback is always appreciated.

 

-joe

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

Hey handleyj. Welcome, and thanks for the input! It's always good to get a fresh perspective.

 

"Yes' date=' Hulk, you can block that armored car."[/quote']

I'd just like to mention that for that one, it could be done with a, "super block," using Desolidification with Activation Roll or Requires a Skill Roll (the class of things that can still harm the character would probably be Area of Effect attacks and/or Ranged attacks). Some Limitations would probably be appropriate, such as Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects and maybe something that requires a Half-Phase Action to perform when not Aborting (instead of just the Zero-Phase Action to activate the power).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Block

 

1 - The SFX Solution

I love how The Hero System seperates SFX from the power/ability/whatever. It's a great idea. However, IMHO, I wouldn't use an SFX to redefine one "thing" into another that already has a definition. Huh? The moment you say the SFX for your Block includes the target "moving such that the attacker misses" (or as Hugh Neilson said, "...avoid his blows actively..." (emphasis mine)) then you've just made your Block into a Dodge. And that just won't sit right with me. A Block is the target forcing the attacker to miss by either dead-stopping his attack, or redirecting his attack.

 

You wouldn't define a Transform as "a blast of fire that transforms an uninjured person into a person that has 8d6 damage." Energy Blast already exists, and is defined.

 

No, I wouldn't use that Transform. I might use Transform: Person to Comatose Person, however. To inflict damage, I might use an Energy Blast, Killing Attack, Ego Blast or Stun Drain. My EB might be normal, Armor Piercing, NND or AVLD. There are lots of ways to accomplish the same thing.

 

Similarly, I might well define a Block as active attempts to avoid a specific opponent's strikes, where I would use Dodge as a general DCV enhancer. Just as I might use Energy Blast for a thrown hammer, despite the fact it is a physical object, and will not act against Energy Defense. The maneuver names are simply conveniences. What I actually DO is SFX. The confusion this causes was, IMO, a reason "Strike" was used to name the generic strike in 5e - it used to be Punch, but a Punch could be a kick, head butt, elbow smash or, perhaps, even hitting someone with your fist.

 

A Haymaker sounds like a specific type of punch. However, it could be a kick, slamming someone's head into a tree or even used with attack forms such as an energy blast, killing attack (say a sword, or a lighting bolt), an ego attack, or a Mind COntrol or Transform.

 

There's a recent thread that discusses more SFX neutral names for some maneuvers (eg. "Active Defense" replaces Block and "Passive Defense" replaces Dodge). For me, it's enough to know that their names need not be descriptive of their SFX.

 

The same as Block and Dodge.

 

Just so. Note that my character could have a power such as "Always Dodging" - call that +5 DCV (equates to Martial Dodge), not when using a Dodge maneuver. This character, who always dodges, will never use the Dodge maneuver.

 

2 - The "Almost" Rule

It seems to me that the rule I quoted in my last post is there, and should be adhered to. Of course, the problem is that it isn't given any kind of quantitative definition. But the rule seems to allude that at some point, it is just obvious that one character can not block ... something. The example given is a character (assuming a non-Super) can not block a vehicle. So all we need is to quantify the gray area between "Obviously can block" and "Obvisouly can NOT block."

 

I love this idea! This sits with me very well, indeed. It seems like a very simple idea, and I like simple. "No, Aunt May, you can't block that armored car." "Yes, Hulk, you can block that armored car."

 

3 - Quantifying The Obvious

As Hugh also pointed out, the STR Table in Fred makes it hard to use it as the only measure of what can't obviously be blocked. But he mentioned DCs which made me look at the Damage Class table...hmm...this is interesting. Comparing the two tables may give us a pretty good look at what is "obvious."

 

Hugh's Aged Martial Arts Master (let's call him AMAM - Hero System loves acronyms!) has an 8 STR. He can lift a washing machine. Pretty good! I don't think I could lift a washing machine!

 

Let's also assume (and this may be a mistake) that the "Example" column on the STR table is not just things you can lift, but things you can block. When I read the "can not block a vehicle" rule, I was picturing a modern road vehicle. So going down the Example column, the first thing that matches that description is "Sportscar." STR 25.

 

I think it would require very different levels of STR to lift a sports car than to stop a sporst car moving towards one at top speed dead in its tracks.

 

So AMAM can not block a STR of 25.

 

That 25 STR may well be a top-end Olympic calibre weightlifter. Seems to me that AMAM is not out of line to believe such an attacker can be Blocked.

 

But alas, another problem: looking at the Damage Class Table on page 403 of Fred, the "Normal" damage column isn't a very good comparison point. The Killing column is a little better. But the "10-point" column is really perfect. So this may be another point where I'm making a mistake. But I'm going to compare the Damage Column from the STR Table to the 10-Point column on the Damage Class Table.

 

Here we go:

 

AMAM = DC3

STR 25 = DC10

 

Pure confusion in that 25 STR is actually 5 DC, but your use of the 10 point per column doubles it, but once one realizes you're using double the DC's of for everyone, at least marginally comprehensible.

 

Difference = 7 DCs

 

"The Spider" can lift 10 tons. Looking on the STR table, this is between a 40 and 45 STR, so let's give him an 8.5d6 damage.

 

Then "The Bulk" has a STR of 60 giving him a damage of 12d6.

 

Now let's compare those against the 10-Point column of the DC Table:

 

The Spider = DC17

The Bulk = DC24

 

Difference = 7 DCs

 

4 - My New House Rule???

So let's get back to AMAM. Somewhere between his STR of 8 and STR 25 lies the rule I'm looking for. So let's take a look at those examples:

 

STR 10 (DC4) - Adult Human - AMAM can certainly block that.

 

STR 13 (DC5) - Refridgerator - Err...well, let's move on.

 

STR 15 (DC6) - Two men, Boar - that sounds more difficult, but not impossible for AMAM

 

STR 18 (DC7) - Floor safe - Once again, the example isn't much help here.

 

STR 20 (DC8) - Grizzly bear! - again pretty tough, but *maybe* not impossible.

 

STR 23 (DC9) - Cow, Horse - Not sure this sounds tougher than a grizzly, but:

 

STR 25 (DC10) - Sportscar - Bam! We hit the rule! Impossible!

 

So AMAM can block anything no heavier than a cow?? But not something as heavy as a sportscar??? Note that, while the horse may be stronger than the grizzly, it lacks the claws and teeth which make the grizzly a more formidable combatant.

 

Wow! I like that a lot! Starting at 3DCs above AMAM, things look a little more difficult. Let's assign him a -1 OCV for blocking that, and add -1 OCV for each DC above 3 until we hit the limit of 7 DCs. That nicely gives us a maximum penalty of -4 OCV at 6 DCs.

 

I could even decide to just keep applying -1 OCV for each DC of difference if I decided the block shouldn't be "impossible."

 

Mechanically, I disagree on the SFX restriction, but that's a point of disagreement we accept already. Let's assume AMAM is, as an Aged Master, DEX 18 and has, say, 5 levels with Martial Arts. That makes him OCV 13 with Martial Block (base 6, +2 for the maneuver, +5 for his skill levels). At OCV -4, he's still pretty good against anyone lacking similar training. That grizzly won't have a 9 OCV, and AMAM can block him probably 80%+. But if the grizzly grows a bit (now he's a polar bear), suddenly AMAM has no hope whatsoever? I think I like the -1 OCV at a time a bit better, until I read AMAM's catch phrase - "It matters not how powerful your opponent may be, young sir, when your Art turns his own strength against him."

 

Oh! Even better: Hugh asked "Do extra MA DC's anhance the ability to block? Do they reduce the target's ability to Block?" I'd say "maybe." Nothing stopping a GM from comparing the total CV values of the combatants' date=' and not just the STR DC. But myself, personally, I'd want to keep it simpler. Just one calculation at the start of combat (or more likly, the first time the question of a target wanting to Block a MUCH stronger opponent).[/quote']

 

We already comare CV's. That's what the To Hit roll is. Let's return to our street tough, STR 20 but no real skill in its application. Should he get a bonus to block AMAM? After all, he's so much stronger. Should that bonus differ depending on whether AMAM uses a Defensive Strike (+0 DC), Martial Strike (+2 DC) or Offensive Strike (+4 DC)? Does it make a difference that AMAM is so skilled at Martial Arts that he adds 4 DC to the damage of each maneuver he uses, or are his exceptionally skilled strikes no more difficult to block than those of any other 8 STR individual?

 

Do the extra DC's added by SuperSpeedster's Hand Attack ("Striking at the speed of sound) change the ability to Block? What if the effect is, instead, "Striking you a thousand times in a heartbeat"?

 

And of course' date=' it should go without saying, but "...the GM must apply common sense, dramatic sense, and considerations of game balance...."[/quote']

 

Does common sense tell us whether The Spider can block The Bulk? I doubt it - common sense serves only to tell us that man-sized beings who have that level of STR don't really exist. Mind you, it also tells me Block is a pretty common defense maneuver, so it must be useful in a variety of situations.

 

Dramatic sense could tell me it should be possible ("As the crushing blow hurtles forward, the Spider leaps onto Bulk's own bicep and springs off"), or maybe it should be penalized ("His strength is astounding - don't know how much longer I can keep up my defense"), or perhaps it should be impossible ("Stupid Spider - Bulk is too string for you to Block!"). Dramatic sense tells me I want to keep the combatants reasonably balanced, but that leads into...

 

Game balance. Is it balanced to provide the high STR opponent with an advantage that those deriving their attack from other sources (Hand Attack; Martial Arts) do not share? Should purchasing higher STR (or DC's) effectively also act as more OCV for the Block maneuver? If the rule I select leads Spider's player to say "Block is useless - I will use Dodge instead", I have thrown the two maneuvers out of balance entirely.

 

Making Block less useful compared to Dodge, especially against higher power opponents, basically says "Bye bye Block". Most characters use actions on defensive maneuvers when battling opponents whose attacks will inflict higher damage - against lower damage attacks, they preserve their phases to attack back. By weakening Block against such attacks, Dodge becomes much more attractive. Rather than waste 4 points on Martial Dodge, I'll buy a 3 point level with Martial Dodge and 2 more comeliness.

[handleyj]

Re: Block

 

Making Block less useful compared to Dodge, especially against higher power opponents, basically says "Bye bye Block".

Yes! Exactly. According to Fred (p. 384-385) there is a point where you simply can't block any more (i.e. "Bye bye Block"). I set out to try and define a way to find that point. And I think you're agreeing that I've done that. However, I think you're disagreeing that I've found a good way to do it. But with that, we've reached an area of pure opinion.

 

I feel successful! Yay me!

 

At OCV -4, he's still pretty good against anyone lacking similar training. That grizzly won't have a 9 OCV, and AMAM can block him probably 80%+. But if the grizzly grows a bit (now he's a polar bear), suddenly AMAM has no hope whatsoever?

 

An excellent point. But was I assuming the grizzly bear had a 20 STR? I think I was... In which case, I think my formula still works. Do grizzly's have an STR of 20? Hold on, lemme check... Ah, actually according to the Beastiary, they have a 26.

 

I think I like the -1 OCV at a time a bit better...

Agreed.

 

...until I read AMAM's catch phrase - "It matters not how powerful your opponent may be, young sir, when your Art turns his own strength against him."

Obviously we're in the realm of role-playing now, outside of mechanics, but The Bulk's catch phrase is: "Just 'cause you say it, don't make it true."

 

Let's return to our street tough, STR 20 but no real skill in its application. Should he get a bonus to block AMAM?

I see what you're saying: if I explore one side of the coin, I should look at both. But I was really was just looking at penalties for AMAM. I wouldn't want to go down the road of offering bonuses to the attackers for STR (beyond what they already get). Again, Fred (p. 384-385) has this statement, which is "almost" a rule, and I just wanted to explore how to define it better. I haven't noticed any place where it mentioned the opposite.

 

If the rule I select leads Spider's player to say "Block is useless - I will use Dodge instead", I have thrown the two maneuvers out of balance entirely.

Yeah...I disagree. As in most things, it all depends on the situation. And in the situation of a character trying to block a vehicle, Fred says it "probably" won't work. In the situation of two characters fighting on a 1 foot wide bridge over a valley of lava, Block becomes your best option, because you sure don't wanna dodge!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Block

 

Here is the thread Hugh mentioned.

 

1st post:

Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

 

full thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1088297#post1088297

 

I don't see myself ever using these descriptions 'in game' other than to illustrate the relationship between the different defensive combat options.

[handleyj]

Re: Block

 

Yikes! Hyper-Man, I like your explanations very much!

 

Sigh, I was so set on being stubborn on the whole SFX thing, but now you've given me something to think about. I really prefer a simple approach, and just using the rule as written, is certainly the simplest approach.

 

And of course, I think it is a law that two people are not allowed to agree on any Internet forum. But for one person to actually change another's opinion... Well I'm just not certain I want to be responsible for hell freezing over.

 

I must sleep on this. Thanks for the link!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

And of course' date=' I think it is a law that two people are not allowed to agree on any Internet forum.[/quote']

Surprisingly, we seem to get anywhere from about an estimated 1/4 to 2/3 agreement rate over any particular subject here--at least on one side of the debate. Welcome!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Block

 

Surprisingly' date=' we seem to get anywhere from about an estimated 1/4 to 2/3 agreement rate over any particular subject here--at least on one side of the debate. Welcome! [/quote']

 

Well, if everyone agrees it makes for a prettyshort thread. As a result, we probably look a lot more argumentative than we are.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Block

 

Yes! Exactly. According to Fred (p. 384-385) there is a point where you simply can't block any more (i.e. "Bye bye Block"). I set out to try and define a way to find that point. And I think you're agreeing that I've done that. However' date=' I [i']think[/i] you're disagreeing that I've found a good way to do it. But with that, we've reached an area of pure opinion.

 

I liked the earlier theory that the vehicle is an area effect and can't be blocked anyway. I think the key difference, however, is that it IS obvious you can't Block the vehicle and need another approach. It isn't obvious to Spider that he cannot block the Bulk. Thus, Spider's player is forced to choose between Dodge, which he knows will make it much less likely Bulk will tag him, and Block, which may or may not be utterly useless and, if it is not utterly useless, will likely be of similar utility to Dodge. If you have two choices:

 

(a) which stands a chance at getting a benefit, or

( which is certain to get a more or less equivalent benefit,

 

how often will you choose (a)? Assuming you have a couple of firing synapses, you'll always choose (.

 

If your goal is to eliminate Block, simply saying "In my games, Block does not exist" is a much simpler way of achieving the goal.

 

Obviously we're in the realm of role-playing now' date=' outside of mechanics, but The Bulk's catch phrase is: "Just 'cause you say it, don't make it true."[/quote']

 

Again, the issue becomes whether one considers Block to have a single hardwired SFX, with all other possible SFX being removed from your games. For me, I like greater variety over lesser variety. Buit I just wouldn't bother using Block in your games, and any character I planned who would have used Block to any great extent would go on the shelf pending a more "block friendly" game. Since you're adding another benefit for high STR, maybe I'll play a high DEF Brick who need not worry about Blocking or Dodging instead (the one I shelved when the GM said "STR will cost 2 points )

 

Yeah...I disagree. As in most things' date=' it all depends on the situation. And in the situation of a character trying to block a vehicle, Fred says it "probably" won't work. In the situation of two characters fighting on a 1 foot wide bridge over a valley of lava, Block becomes your best option, because you sure don't wanna dodge![/quote']

 

Sure I do - "Nimbly, he leaps over the head of his opponent, landing upon the bridge behind him and deftly avoiding his attack. Whirling, he launches a spinning kick further pushing his opponent in the direction of his attack. Already off-balance, his foe hopefully tumbles into the lava."

 

"Dodge" does not technically require any movement whatsoever, but a step back or a flip over the opponent are both legitimate means of dodging. And I like it a lot better than a Block which may have no benefit whatsoever, in which case I'm likely knocked off the bridge anyway.

[Checkmate]

Re: Block

 

Well to quickly weigh in and give you something to think about:

 

Does an Energy Blast have to be Energy?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

First off, I'd like to mention that I'm a newb to Hero (as if you couldn't tell from my post count). So I'm ignorant of the system and appreciate the help.

 

I've only started reading the Combat section in Fred, and I'm a slow reader. But when I got to the part about Blocking, I was struck by the fact that anyone can Block anyone else, and thought I'd check the forums.

 

I think what I'm really looking for from this thread is some help in defining what my house rule will be in these situations.

While I won't go into your reasoning and your results, I do want to say one thing. Since you are new to the game and its rules, I strongly suggest not using any house rules. Go straight from the book, play for a good long time like that, and then decide what you don't like. Otherwise you run the risk (I'd say certainty) of missing out on how the rules work together. I've seen plenty of house rules that make no sense (at least to me) because they were forged out of a misconception of how two or more rules work together/interact or a misunderstanding of what a rule meant. This isn't specific to the Block Maneuver, but to the entire system. I agree there are some areas of the rules that don't work the way I want them to or the way I think they should, but it's taken me nearly 10 years of experience with the system to hammer out how I think they should be changed (and there are still a few I'm not too sure on but I'm giving them a chance while I think about it). Over the years there have been hundreds of rules that didn't make any sense to me and I felt a strong desire to "fix". Then after "fixing" them I found other areas of the game that also didn't work, so I fixed them too. Eventually, I discovered the reason some rules didn't work was because of my house rules. To same myself the trouble I just scrapped all my house rules and went with the default rules, asking questions and advice on the boards (after discovering them) and found that 99% of my house rules were unnecessary because I just didn't understand the original rule at the time.

 

So basically, don't call a rule broken or say it doesn't make sense until you've used it for awhile (I'm not saying this is your opinion, this is just my advice to you).

 

About the Block Maneuver specifically: Block and Dodge (with the capital letters) are the names of Combat Maneuvers (game mechanics for how characters interact in combat). While block and dodge (with lower case letters) are not. According the the standard, default rules, a Block Maneuver can represent a dodge, and a Dodge Maneuver can represent a series of blocks. Either Maneuver can represent anything that makes sense for the character using them. Block (or Dodge) can represent ducking or sidestepping out of the say, batting aside an attack, holding the opponent by the head at arms length, activating a Power he's bought like Desol that makes the attack pass right through it just in time for him to resolidify... If so some reason it doesn't make sense for the character to do these things, then the problem isn't with the Block Maneuver, it's with the character's capibilities. He just needs to perform some other action (SFX) to use the Block Maneuver (for example, it doesn't make sense for a STR 5 kid with good reflexes and a +10 to the Block Maneuver to hold the Hulk at arms length... don't even try; but if it makes sense he can duck out of the way, the Block Maneuver does that).

 

As I said above, I have 10+ years experience with the rules, and this is how I believe Block works after all that time, and all that time I've never encountered a situation where it shouldn't, or doesn't make sense to work this way. Now, that's just my own experience, and the experience of any one person, regardless of length, is insufficient to prove anything, which is why I suggest you try it for yourself for a while before you decide to change it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

While I do tend to place an active counter to the Block maneuver, I can see some evasion as possibly working its way in there. I will agree that the major game difference between the two is that a Block concentrates heavily on a single attack (and potentially a couple others, but with quickly diminishing effectiveness), whereas Dodge is more of a general passive evasion of all attacks coming your way.

[Phil]

Re: Block

 

I don't have any problem with BLOCK being an all-or-nothing maneuver. The name is irrelevant, it's describing a particular type of SFX.

 

However, I do also want to be able to recreate a genre staple, whereby an attempt is made to parry a blow and it proves to be too powerful, causing weapons to break, arms to bruise and/or knockback to occur.

 

Short of custom-buying every character a 'Parry' maneuver based on purchasing PD, is there an existing maneuver that can recreate this? Perhaps there should be some kind of maneuver where characters can opt to defend an attack by opposing STR vs. STR, with a Martial maneuver equivalent which gives a +15 to STR?

 

Phil

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

I don't have any problem with BLOCK being an all-or-nothing maneuver. The name is irrelevant, it's describing a particular type of SFX.

 

However, I do also want to be able to recreate a genre staple, whereby an attempt is made to parry a blow and it proves to be too powerful, causing weapons to break, arms to bruise and/or knockback to occur.

 

Short of custom-buying every character a 'Parry' maneuver based on purchasing PD, is there an existing maneuver that can recreate this? Perhaps there should be some kind of maneuver where characters can opt to defend an attack by opposing STR vs. STR, with a Martial maneuver equivalent which gives a +15 to STR?

Hmm. Extra OCV (bought by the original attacker, that is) causing a failed Block roll? Define, "powerful." Isn't that partially a part of SFX instead of (or in addition to) mechanics?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

I don't have any problem with BLOCK being an all-or-nothing maneuver. The name is irrelevant, it's describing a particular type of SFX.

 

However, I do also want to be able to recreate a genre staple, whereby an attempt is made to parry a blow and it proves to be too powerful, causing weapons to break, arms to bruise and/or knockback to occur.

 

Short of custom-buying every character a 'Parry' maneuver based on purchasing PD, is there an existing maneuver that can recreate this? Perhaps there should be some kind of maneuver where characters can opt to defend an attack by opposing STR vs. STR, with a Martial maneuver equivalent which gives a +15 to STR?

 

Phil

 

I've always handled this as "he hit you, take damage." I figure why stop at describing the SFX of attacking and defending and go for describing the SFX of getting hit and getting missed. I've often told a player so-and-so is attacking his character, the player chooses not to abort (or can't) and the attack missed. When this happens I've never imagined the character just standing there while the attack passess harmless by at arms length. Instead the character ducked, deflected, redirected, turned Desolid at the last minute, whatevered. No maneuver, just whatever the SFX of his DCV was at the time. Same thing for when he gets hit. I don't (usually) assume the attack slams full into the target. I'll roll damage, and if it's really amazingly high, then maybe it slammed full into him. If it's really crappy, them maybe the target did something to reduce the impact (like ducking, deflecting, etc. only not entirely effectively).

[Phil]

Re: Block

 

I've always handled this as "he hit you' date=' take damage." I figure why stop at describing the SFX of attacking and defending and go for describing the SFX of getting hit and getting missed. I've often told a player so-and-so is attacking his character, the player chooses not to abort (or can't) and the attack missed. When this happens I've never imagined the character just standing there while the attack passess harmless by at arms length. Instead the character ducked, deflected, redirected, turned Desolid at the last minute, whatevered. No maneuver, just whatever the SFX of his DCV was at the time. Same thing for when he gets hit. I don't (usually) assume the attack slams full into the target. I'll roll damage, and if it's really amazingly high, then maybe it slammed full into him. If it's really crappy, them maybe the target did something to reduce the impact (like ducking, deflecting, etc. only not entirely effectively).[/quote']

 

Which is certainly one interpretation, and I agree that I dont assume every miss is a miss as such. It just strikes me that there is a staple maneuver here which HERO fails to provide. Which is not to say it can't model it, of course, but it seems common enough warrant a separate description.

 

Although curiously enough I was thinking about this very thing at the weekend, and almost wonder whether it can simply be modelled by broadening the Pushing rules to allow a character to take an action to Push his PD?! Clearly, nowhere near being canon, and I suspect it would need a limit below the usual 10 character point push normally permitted within superheroic rules. In many ways I'd be happier with this than with a blocking type maneuver linked to strength, because STR already has more than enough benefits associated with it!

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

I don't have any problem with BLOCK being an all-or-nothing maneuver. The name is irrelevant, it's describing a particular type of SFX.

 

However, I do also want to be able to recreate a genre staple, whereby an attempt is made to parry a blow and it proves to be too powerful, causing weapons to break, arms to bruise and/or knockback to occur.

 

The canon method for this is to give an OCV bonus to the much stronger or better armed character (see the Pixie vs Giant example in 5thER). The SFX of the failed block is that the attack was just too strong.

 

However, following that example will apparently result in cries that you are nerfing block.

[Alibear]

Re: Block

 

However, I do also want to be able to recreate a genre staple, whereby an attempt is made to parry a blow and it proves to be too powerful, causing weapons to break, arms to bruise and/or knockback to occur.

Phil

 

I think you have to consider that weapon breakage is already an optional rule when blocking.

 

You could also buy the 'Too Powerful to Block' attack you mention as an actual power using whichever power you thought simulates the attack best.

 

Indirect HKA springs to mind.

[Phil]

Re: Block

 

I think you have to consider that weapon breakage is already an optional rule when blocking.

 

Which of course undermines the general consensus that block is non-sfx dependent! Good ole inconsistencies, 5th edition and still going strong

[Alibear]

Re: Block

 

If you want to get the +3 ocv to block with the shield then you have to actually get your shield in the way to block the attack. If you want to block by steppiong out of the way you can hardly hope to get the +3 ocv.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

Which is certainly one interpretation, and I agree that I dont assume every miss is a miss as such. It just strikes me that there is a staple maneuver here which HERO fails to provide. Which is not to say it can't model it, of course, but it seems common enough warrant a separate description.

Well, there certainly no rules or maneuvers for deciding how you get hit, which to me is what you are describing here. For me, it's all in the effect roll and why a bullet of a specific calibur does such a vast array (inconsistant) of possible damage to a target even though test/lab results of firing it into balistics gell tend to consistant results. Even when being hit by a punch, something slow enough you might be able to throw a limb in the way to absorb the damage, the force and angle of the blow could still cause damage to other parts of the body. It's just too ramdom to determine by a desicion on the part of the attacker or the defender.