Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Maybe only in Hand-to-Hand combat. It doesn't necessarily make your aim with a gun any better, for example.

 

Besides, if you're throwing punches faster than someone can see, that's not necessarily DEX, or even OCV... it sounds more like Invisible Power Effects. Maybe you hit easily with it because they can't see it coming, not because you're inherently accurate with it.

 

Sure it does. Your reaction times will be higher, so you'll be easy to track them because they'll look like a slow-moving target no matter how fast they may be going.

 

I was engaging in hyperbole and using an old metaphor. Again, it's a matter of 'you're throwing a punch at a target that, relative to yourself, isn't dodging effectively', because your hand is moving several magnitudes faster than a normal punch, and because your reaction times are so much higher, and a high reaction time is pretty much a survival trait for a real speedster, because there's not that much difference between something coming at you at Mach 1 and you going at something at Mach 1.

[OddHat]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Maybe only in Hand-to-Hand combat. It doesn't necessarily make your aim with a gun any better, for example.

 

I've always held that for some Speedsters, especially Flash types, the world seems to move in slow motion or not at all. Targets that are slow or still should be easier to hit, attacks that are slow should be easier to avoid, and a high DEX is one way to simulate that.

 

If you're a speedster just because your super-strong legs give you lots of extra running, the situation may be different.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

All I'm saying is that speedsters don't necessarily have to have a high OCV. Their ability to hit things effectively might be due to factors that can be simulated ways other than OCV. Having a high DCV seems much more central to the speedster archtype, IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Maybe only in Hand-to-Hand combat. It doesn't necessarily make your aim with a gun any better' date=' for example.[/quote']

 

Hmmm...is there any decent rationale for the three DEX stats to cover OCV in HTH, OCV at range and DCV separately? Reaction speed could determine initiative order and DCV. Ranged OCV becomes hand-eye co-ordination (and links to the appropriate skills) and HTH OCV becomes agility (linking to the appropriate skills).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Yes' date=' obviously it requires GM oversight. Just because a brick would like to have an OCV of 15 doesn't give him the in-game justification explaining how his eye-hand coordination is so extraordinary. Character concepts still have to be honored and enforced. [/quote']

 

Absolutely. However, character concepts should not be point-penalized either. if a particular ability is expensive and virtually useless, bet on very few characters whose concept demands that ability being played. If a given ability has utility well beyond its cost, a lot of concepts that cry out for that ability will develop.

 

And my Brick, while not especially fast, is extremely skilled at striking his opponents. Thus, he has a very high OCV Dex stat. It would be out of concept to buy up DCV Dex or Act first Dex.

 

[Don't let anyone else take that, by the way. They're steppping on my schtick to Powergame.]

[Dr.Device]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I'm not entirely sure about splitting DEX up, but if I were to do it, I would want it to look more like this (heavily influenced by several posts in this thread).

 

Dexterity is a primary characteristic. It costs 3 points per level.

Accuracy is a figured characteristic which represents Hand-Eye Coordination. Base Accuracy is equal to Dex. Each level of Accuracy costs 1 point.

Agility is a figured characteristic which represents full-body coordination. Base Agility is equal to Dex. Each level of Agility costs 1 point.

Speed remains as is.

 

The current aspects of DEX are divided up as follows (The split of skills is just my first pass):

 

Dex - OCV in Hand-to-Hand combat (HTHOCV), Initiative, Climbing, Combat Driving, Combat Piloting, Fast Draw, Stealth

Accuracy - OCV in Ranged combat (ROCV), Lockpicking, Sleight of Hand, Teamwork

Agility - DCV, Acrobatics, Breakfall, Contortionist, Riding

 

Having several of the function of DEX stay with DEX, while the other two are figured characteristics should reduce the risk of severe mini-maxing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I'm not entirely sure about splitting DEX up, but if I were to do it, I would want it to look more like this (heavily influenced by several posts in this thread).

 

Dexterity is a primary characteristic. It costs 3 points per level.

Accuracy is a figured characteristic which represents Hand-Eye Coordination. Base Accuracy is equal to Dex. Each level of Accuracy costs 1 point.

Agility is a figured characteristic which represents full-body coordination. Base Agility is equal to Dex. Each level of Agility costs 1 point.

Speed remains as is.

 

The current aspects of DEX are divided up as follows (The split of skills is just my first pass):

 

Dex - OCV in Hand-to-Hand combat (HTHOCV), Initiative, Climbing, Combat Driving, Combat Piloting, Fast Draw, Stealth

Accuracy - OCV in Ranged combat (ROCV), Lockpicking, Sleight of Hand, Teamwork

Agility - DCV, Acrobatics, Breakfall, Contortionist, Riding

 

Having several of the function of DEX stay with DEX, while the other two are figured characteristics should reduce the risk of severe mini-maxing.

 

Why would it be possible to buy up ranged OCV and DCV separate from DEX, but not to buy up HTH OCV? Similarly, there seems an inherent unfairness in linking some DEX skills to a 1 point attribute, while others are linked to a more expensive stat.

 

Note that each 3 points of DEX now provides 3 points of Figured characteristics. Is this intended?

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Maybe make Dex a 2 point attribute that affects Close combat Combat Value and Ranged Defensive Combat value along with certain grace and agility skills like Breakfall, Acrobatics, Climbing and Stealth and add a 1 point Attribute called Technique that affect hand Eye Coordination like Lockpicking and Sleight of Hand and perhaps Ranged OCV.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Okay, this thread has convinced me...

 

 

I'm not going to change DEX in my new campaign.

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I probably won't change it in any current games (to much retrofitting) but I'll at least strongly consider it for any future one, particularly Heroic.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Maybe the problems can be mitigated by restricting how far the various aspects of CEX can be from each other. Like with Entangle, where you can have any combination of DEF and dice of BODY as long as one doesn't exceed twice the other. You could do the same thing for DEX. So instead of a standard 20 DEX, you could have one part at 26 and one part at 14. You couldn't spead any farther than this because 27 is more than twice 13.

 

Or the allowed variance could be even smaller if you like, e.g., the higher one can't be more than 50% ove the lower one. So you could have 24 and 16, but not 25 anf 15. Or you could let it vary by no more than a fixed amount, say 5 points, so you could have 20 and 25, or 25 and 30, or 15 and 20, etc.

 

Does that help? At least a little?

 

I find it an interesting idea, but...

[Hermit]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I have to wait a bit before I get mine, but hopefully soon

[Armitage]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I like having an official character (Cheshire Cat' date=' p.176) using Clairsentience as a targeting sense. It helps drive home the point that an individual GM has every right to allow that option in a given campaign.[/quote']

 

Although I'm wondering why he has MegaScale Clairsentience to perceive Teleport locations when he doesn't have MegaScale Teleportation. The Short-Range Sense slot in his Multipower has enough range to match any of his Teleportation powers.

[Dr.Device]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Why would it be possible to buy up ranged OCV and DCV separate from DEX' date=' but not to buy up HTH OCV?[/quote']

 

Two reasons.

1. It's just how I see it working. Hitting someone in HTH requires a combination of both of agility and accuracy.

2. I think it balances better.

 

Similarly, there seems an inherent unfairness in linking some DEX skills to a 1 point attribute, while others are linked to a more expensive stat.

WHy is that any more unfair than the current system? INT & PRE skills are already based off 1 point attributes.

 

 

Note that each 3 points of DEX now provides 3 points of Figured characteristics. Is this intended?

Yes, that's intended. I set it up so as not to be a mini-max target. Purchasing two of the figureds (one of which will almost always be speed) should basically break even with buying regular DEX. The only reason to buy up agility or accuracy is because it fits the character concept.

 

Looking at it again, I do see a potential for abuse that might keep me from implementing it, though. An invisible blaster or other sniper variant could get away with murder by buying up accuracy, if a GM weren't vigilant. That's probably enough to scuttle it unless I find a fix. I'd still favor this system over the one it The Ultimate Speedster, though.

[OddHat]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Although I'm wondering why he has MegaScale Clairsentience to perceive Teleport locations when he doesn't have MegaScale Teleportation. The Short-Range Sense slot in his Multipower has enough range to match any of his Teleportation powers.

 

You're right.

 

Something to add in my own version of the character.

[OddHat]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

As to the other characters:

 

Kinetic - Nice to see a reasonably powerful good guy NPC, and a hint at what the 500 point version of the Champions will look like. Nothing all that new in the build.

 

El Salto - I would never use him.

 

Mantara - Interesting, and a fairly tight build. With a slight upgrade I might use her in a campaign.

 

Vector - Absurdly dangerous even if you're not using the Speed Zone rules, and an absolute monster if you do. Fairly solid super merc back story as well. I like him, and would use him as a significant re-occuring foe.

 

Bullethead - A good Dark Champions thug, only needs minor upgrading for a Champions campaign, could fit into Pulp Hero with some tweaking.

 

Tovar Farwalker - I don't currently have any campaigns where he'd fit in. Looks like a reasonable build for his setting.

 

Winged Folk - OK, but I have no use for them right now.

 

Burrowing Horror - I liked the movie, not bad for a Horror or Pulp game.

 

Kagamishoki - Always liked him, easy to use in many settings.

 

The Midnight Comet - Good Pulp Hero NPC or high power Pulp PC. Would fit well in a golden age game.

 

The Mole Marauder - I could just about see using him in a Pulp game. Not a bad unusual thug with non-combat value.

 

The Rocketmen - I like these guys, and they can fit in to Pulp or Champions games as well with tweaking.

 

True Travellers - Again, a nice PC or NPC background for all sorts of campaigns.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Kinetiks gotten better, but his build still kinda bothers me. He burns through 90 END a turn just doing full moves. Even a turn of Half moves costs him 60 END. He only has 50 END and 8 REC.

 

I could understand some lesser speedster having END problems, but the CU's premier superheroic speedster probably shouldn't suck quite so much wind. Hell, I don't mind that he can't use most of his Speedster Tricks every phase since he has the Vibro Grip and Martial Arts to fall back on. But he should be able to make better use of his movement.

 

As a side notes, his ED total is wrong. Should be 28 ED (20 rED).

 

Also, my Spanish isn't that good, but I thought "Salto" just meant leap or jump. Leap Frog would be "Salto Rana" I believe...

[Steve Long]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Also, my Spanish isn't that good, but I thought "Salto" just meant leap or jump. Leap Frog would be "Salto Rana" I believe...

 

I looked it up in two dictionaries. It's a legitimate usage as near as I can determine without having actually been born in a Spanish-speaking country.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Kinetiks gotten better, but his build still kinda bothers me. He burns through 90 END a turn just doing full moves. Even a turn of Half moves costs him 60 END. He only has 50 END and 8 REC.

A) Who said Kinetik is the "premier" superheroic speedster? The Champions are just PC analogs; nothing premier about them.

 

I don't have the book handy but Ill look at him tonight to see if your END assesment of his movement is correct. If it is then yes that should definitely be addressed.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

A) Who said Kinetik is the "premier" superheroic speedster? The Champions are just PC analogs; nothing premier about them.

How about, "Kinetik is the 'featured' superheroic speedster of the Champions Universe?"

I don't have the book handy but Ill look at him tonight to see if your END assesment of his movement is correct. If it is then yes that should definitely be addressed.

It's correct. For the version of Kinetik in TUS, his movement (either combat-scale or MegaScale) costs 9 END per Phase if used at full power. With a SPD of 10, that does indeed come out to 90 END per Turn doing nothing but full-moving.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I looked it up in two dictionaries. It's a legitimate usage as near as I can determine without having actually been born in a Spanish-speaking country.

 

Then I'm probably wrong on this one.

 

How about' date=' "Kinetik is the 'featured' superheroic speedster of the Champions Universe?"[/quote']

 

Yeah, I supopose that would probably be a better term.

 

Since I don't actully play in the CU, I tend to think about most of the campaign material the same way I might a comic book. So even though Davos and Vector are faster then Kinetik, he's still in my mind the Quicksilver or the Flash of the setting...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

It's correct. For the version of Kinetik in TUS' date=' his movement (either combat-scale or MegaScale) costs 9 END per Phase if used at full power. With a SPD of 10, that does indeed come out to 90 END per Turn doing nothing but full-moving.[/quote']

Well, that certainly does sound like a design oversight.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

Since I don't actully play in the CU, I tend to think about most of the campaign material the same way I might a comic book. So even though Davos and Vector are faster then Kinetik, he's still in my mind the Quicksilver or the Flash of the setting...

Granted it's impossible to determine precisely, but IMO Kinetic is far weaker than either of those two characters.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I don't know if Kinetic's END Expenditure is all that bad... of all the Archetype's Speedster's have the most freedom to spend a phase or two taking recoveries; at SPD10 even with 2 phases of Recoveries they probably get in 1-2 phases more than everyone else.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Ultimate Speedster: Other stuff

 

I don't know if Kinetic's END Expenditure is all that bad... of all the Archetype's Speedster's have the most freedom to spend a phase or two taking recoveries; at SPD10 even with 2 phases of Recoveries they probably get in 1-2 phases more than everyone else.

True. 'Course they might also get killed, since most speedsters are too lightly defended to do a lot of standing around at Half DCV, with targetting penalties against them also cut in half.

 

As it stands now, Kinetik can run at a full sprint for less than 1 Turn. Assuming average rolls on the STUN damage he'd be taking for burning STUN as END starting on Segment 8, he'd be unconscious before 12's.

 

Now, I'm a big round 430 lb. ball of dough. And even *I* can run at full speed for more than 12 seconds. (Though granted, my full speed is a bit lower than Kinetik's... )