Outside the HERO Box

[sbarron]

I was just reading about the Speed Zone in another thread. The general vibe there was that it was way too overpowered for actual use in play. Which very well might be the case. However, I can't tell you how excited I get when someone comes up with HERO rules that allow players to do things that weren't possible before. Well, I guess I can...I'm excited!

 

This Speed Zone power bridges a gap that existed with Speedster characters within the rules in all the previous editions. You couldn't "really" do The Flash before. Now you can.

 

Mega-scale filled a hole that was previously prohibitively expensive.

 

The Fantasy Hero rule about magic cost being Real Points/3 or /5 makes magic using characters more viable in many games.

 

Deadly Strike and Combat Luck do the same. Combat Luck in particular totally blew my HERO mind when I read it the first time. It was like a veil was lifted from my HERO eyes. Seriously!

 

There are probably other examples of which I'm not even aware. Each of these abilities provided a way to model an effect in HERO that wasn't easily done prior to its creation. It really plays to HERO's toolkit mindset to include these new rules. And HERO makes it painfully clear that if you don't like using these tools, you don't have to.

 

Lots of players don't seem to like these new rules because they violate HERO "canon." But I don't see it that way at all. HERO is a fairly tight framework to which various rules can be tacked to create different effects. That is what HERO is about. Adding tools to the toolbox can only help, because if you don't like a rule for your game, you don't have to use it!

 

I really hope HERO keeps moving forward with new ideas like these. Keep thinking outside the HERO box, guys! It's amazing what you're finding there!

[CourtFool]

'tis sacrilege

 

For once, I am going to be negative about Hero.

 

Hero takes a giant step towards effects based, but in my opinion still falls short. Perhaps it would be too much of a break from 'What has come before' or worse yet, require even larger rule books. Why do we need Ego Blast, Energy Blast, Hand to Hand Attack, Killing Attack – Hand to Hand and Killing Attack Ranged? Just have one power, call it Damage, and then apply various modifiers to make it Ego Based, Normal, Melee, Ranged, ect. Why not have one Defense power with various modifies that make it apply to only certain types of attacks, cost END, ect. Why not have one movement power with various modifiers?

 

Just my two cents. I am sure someone is going to tell me to go FUDGE myself.

[Robyn]

Re: 'tis sacrilege

 

Why do we need Ego Blast' date=' Energy Blast, Hand to Hand Attack, Killing Attack – Hand to Hand and Killing Attack Ranged? Just have one power, call it Damage, and then apply various modifiers to make it Ego Based, Normal, Melee, Ranged, ect.[/quote']

 

I've wondered about such a variant before. I was specifically thinking that everything came in two values, equivalent to the Pool and Rating in DERPG, a Base number which the second value reverted to, and a temporary number that could be raised by one power and lowered by another. At its simplest, this is how most combat in HERO can be treated. I've been saving that writeup for a comparison to the other arenas of contention, though (sexual, social, etcetera), when I could point out how the other areas worked differently.

 

Just my two cents. I am sure someone is going to tell me to go FUDGE myself.

 

Why should we let you apply the fudge when I can apply it just as well?

 

__________________

Oh, wait, this wasn't 'Bec's Flirting and Double Entendre thread? Never mind . . .

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: 'tis sacrilege

 

For once, I am going to be negative about Hero.

 

Hero takes a giant step towards effects based, but in my opinion still falls short. Perhaps it would be too much of a break from 'What has come before' or worse yet, require even larger rule books. Why do we need Ego Blast, Energy Blast, Hand to Hand Attack, Killing Attack – Hand to Hand and Killing Attack Ranged? Just have one power, call it Damage, and then apply various modifiers to make it Ego Based, Normal, Melee, Ranged, ect. Why not have one Defense power with various modifies that make it apply to only certain types of attacks, cost END, ect. Why not have one movement power with various modifiers?

 

Just my two cents. I am sure someone is going to tell me to go FUDGE myself.

 

This is a logical continuation of Hero's design philosophy. But Hero already draws some criticism for lacking flavor; some feel that one Energy Blast feels very much like another even after Modifiers and SFX are taken into account. I think those complaints would only intensify if Hero took that last step.

 

Calling back to the original post...I love the Speed Zone. The Macroverse and Microverse too. Do they present potential balance problems? Absolutely. But I prefer Hero to provide the ideas and let GMs make the final balance calls.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 'tis sacrilege

 

For once, I am going to be negative about Hero.

Just have one power, call it Damage, and then apply various modifiers to make it Ego Based, Normal, Melee, Ranged, ect. Why not have one Defense power with various modifies that make it apply to only certain types of attacks, cost END, ect. Why not have one movement power with various modifiers?

 

Becasue that becomes a major mess on the character sheet.

 

I'm all for streamlining, but that means each and every attack power has to have a modifier. The way it is, you may have a number of powers, each working similarly, but not exactly the same, and you don't have to have a bunch of modifiers on each and every power.

That would make trying to learn the system even harder, I think, than it is now. That is somethine worth avoiding.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

I don't mind all the attack powers being seperated out like that. But, I very much dislike the "Hand to Hand (-1/2)" limitation which seems to make normal damage melee attacks too cheap. I mean, if you applied "Ranged (+1/2)" to a HA, you essentially have an EB with STR bonus to damage at the same cost as an EB without STR bonus. It's a bit whacky.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 'tis sacrilege

 

For once, I am going to be negative about Hero.

 

Hero takes a giant step towards effects based, but in my opinion still falls short. Perhaps it would be too much of a break from 'What has come before' or worse yet, require even larger rule books. Why do we need Ego Blast, Energy Blast, Hand to Hand Attack, Killing Attack – Hand to Hand and Killing Attack Ranged? Just have one power, call it Damage, and then apply various modifiers to make it Ego Based, Normal, Melee, Ranged, ect. Why not have one Defense power with various modifies that make it apply to only certain types of attacks, cost END, ect. Why not have one movement power with various modifiers?

 

Just my two cents. I am sure someone is going to tell me to go FUDGE myself.

Fudge? I think you're getting dangerously close to that other (six-letter) 'F' word people seem to dispise around here (I wouldn't know; I never really checked it out myself). For what it's worth, I agree. All of those build-force-field-from-armor-or-vice-versa type debates struck close to home. In a sense we don't really have Powers in Hero anymore; we have the next level up. The system could be broken down into a fewer number of more elementary Powers, and most of the existing Powers would be achievable with the more basic Powers and some Modifiers (especially if we make Modifiers multiplicative instead of additive...but I'll spare people from once again hearing my spiel about that one--for now ).

[nexus]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

The simplication idea has its merits but two potential problems I see with it;

 

The loss of flavor which is already a sticking point with some people.

 

The increased complexity which is a major sticking point with many people. There would be almost no power with many modifiers which would like somewhat messy on the character sheet. I'm sure there would be a way to get around that problem but it might be reinventing the wheel in a fashion.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

... what six letter eff word? Meh?

 

In response to SBarron's post - I agree with him completely. One of the things I loved about d20 was because it's a hand wave system built on hand waves, you got some really niffo ideas from supplemental material that someone just thought up and applied some rules too. In HERO, the only thing I concern myself with is that whatever gets built is built under the mechanics as we know them.

 

If a new mechanic is introduced, I don't mind at all, so long as it stays consistent with the existing structure. Combat Luck? No sweat! It's consistent, and appropriately costed. Now as far as spraying fudge on various individuals, that really isn't my cuppa. There are things I see Courtfools way, in that they took me a while to puzzle through, but as a new comer to the system, nothing REALLY stood out and said "I'm broken!"

 

The things that were easily abusable (EDM, Transform, etc.) have clear explanations and long text telling you (the DM and/or player) how to keep it all in check. So it doesn't phase me in the slightest. However, I would submit as a point of contention, that an Ego EB and an HA and an HKA aren't all listed as 'Damage' because they're different powers on the surface. And, as noted above, that'd be a heck of a mess.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

... what six letter eff word? Meh?

Fuzion

[nexus]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

Fuzion

 

*in the distance, horses whinny*

[Bloodstone]

Re: 'tis sacrilege

 

The loss of flavor which is already a sticking point with some people.

 

The increased complexity which is a major sticking point with many people. There would be almost no power with many modifiers which would like somewhat messy on the character sheet. I'm sure there would be a way to get around that problem but it might be reinventing the wheel in a fashion.

 

Well, you could give players and GM's the best of both worlds and do powers kinda like how 5th does Talents.

 

You have a limited number of highly generic base powers, like Attack, Defense, Movement and so on.

 

Then you just build the current powers with certain Limitations and Advantages, as deemed necessary. You allow players to buy those powers as premade packages, just like you can buy multiple levels of Combat Luck at a set cost of 6 pts each. You can still add advantages and limitations on top of these "package deals" for further customization.

 

This way some people can have Regen and Force Field pre built as their own unique powers. And the tinkers get to see the system at a meta level and can better understand (and argue about) the math beneath it all.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

I think doing a generic "damage" power would have flaws. To mimc 5th edition, you'd need something like this:

1. 5 points per 1d6 damage. Pick either "Ranged" or "Add STR bonus" to go with it.

2. Having both Ranged and Add STR Bonus is an additional +1/2 advantage.

3. Making the attack Killing damage is a +2 advantage.

 

At this level, it's fairly consistent with 5th except that a simulated HA doesn't get that mystical -1/2 Hand-To-Hand limitation. The problem kicks in when you start applying more advantages such as armor piercing to killing attacks. Example:

1. Current 5th - 1d6 RKA (15 points), AP (+1/2) = 22 points

2. Simulated 5th - 1d6 Damage (5 points), Killing (+2), AP (+1/2) = 17 points

 

As you can see, creating a single damage power makes advantages cheaper.

 

I say, they are just fine apart.

[digital_lorax]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

I can see the idea in making even more generic powers.

But like Bloodstone goes into above, making packages from those even more 'generic ' powers would be the way to go.

Except I'm already doing that with some of the the powers we've already got.

Like many other people I've read about, I've split Regeneration back into its owen power rather than make it a construct off of Healing. So there comes a point where making these generic powers doesn't become worth it.

 

You have to decide if your time is best spent creating more generic powers and all the headaches that go from there, or stick with what you have and grow from there, streamling as you see a more important need that is worth your time.

 

On the original OP's subject, I think many people have different 'eye-opening' moments in HERO.

I think my really big one was when I really grocked the concept of the whole superskill idea. You can have powers and just make them be super skills. I think I first did it when emulating David Bowie's character from 'Into the Night', when I bought a teleport to represent his super stealth, but I didn't really understood what I was doing until years later.

[Lxndr]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

I can see splitting into:

 

Damage attack - Normal (3)

Damage attack - Killing (10)

 

Then give: Strength adds (+1/2) and Ranged (+1/2)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

Yes, but 5 points of a Normal Attack is a die.

 

5 points of a Killing Attack is a pip. Where's the 3/10 math? Am I failing to grasp a concept of this argument, or are you just breaking down '1/3rd' in a different fashion?

[buzz]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

I like Bloodstone's idea.

 

There's room for condensation; maybe not to the point of having a single "attack" power, but there's room. GURPS4 actually handles some powers very in the way we're discussing here.

[Lxndr]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

Thia:

 

3 points of 'normal damage' plus ranged (1/2) is 4.5, or almost 5, the same as 'energy blast.' Add 'strength adds' for a hand attack, though it lacks the kludgey 'hand to hand attack' disadvantage that the 5th edition gives it which I've never understood. Ideally, this would be worth exactly 3.333333333333, not just 3.

 

10 points of 'killing damage' plus ranged (1/2) is 15, the same as 'ranged killing attack.' Add the mythical (strength adds) and you also get 15, the same as 'hand to hand killing attack.' This is for an entire die of damage, not a damage class. A damage class more properly should be 3.333333333333333 to match the old values precisely.

[MarioTani]

Re: Outside the HERO Box

 

I'd go with Damage Classes.

 

1d6 of killing strike is 3 Damage classes the same as 3d6 of EB and both cost you 15 points.

 

In this way you do not have problems with advantages