Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Only if you assumed that you couldn't spread HTH damage by picking up (say) a bus and whacking someone with it. So spreading an attack is essentially a power stunt that everyone gets for free. With EB you don't need a (free) environmental focus' date=' but you pay for that by losing damage.[/quote']

 

There's certainly some comparability there.

 

STR at high ends also loses damage unless you can find an object with enough BOD+DEF. I also look to the rules for this - does your Brick have WF: Bus? If not, I guess he should take the nonproficient weapon penalties. That bus is large and unwieldy, so there should be some penalties to that. How often is that convenient object available (and the bus does need to be unoccupied for most heroes to adopt this tactic).

 

With STR you may actually gain a little extra damage but you need a suitable object and may get AOE into the bargain. 1d6 of STR damage can't be used at range' date=' but 1d6 of EB damage can't be used in movethroughs, to shake off grabs, do casual STR activities, etc, and you don't get the first 2d6 for free. They are not the same, but I have no problem seeing them as of equivalent value.[/quote']

 

The first 2d6 aren't free, they're just ingraned. Sell your STR back to 0 and you get 10 (20 under the changed pricing) back to invest in other powers.

 

Here's a simple question: what would you rather have under the current system: 50 points of EB or 33 points of STR usable at range? The first gives you 10 d6 ranged attack. The second gives you 9d6 of more flexible ranged attack

 

Actually, it gives you 6 1/2 d6 unless you buy Ranged on your remaining STR as well, costing an extra 5 points (+1d6 EB) to go up to 8 1/2 d6. My experience is that, in most games where a 10DC (11 DC) attack is the norm, a 6.5 (8.5) DC attack doesn't do much in the way of damage.

 

plus 36 points of Figured CHA' date=' plus other advantages. As you lift the cap on damage, the advantage slides slightly away from STR - but not by much. There's a *reason* STR at range is specifically forbidden - one of the few contructs so singled out.[/quote']

 

If I spent half the cost of my STR on Stretching, I'd get enough range to manage most encounters, and now it has no penalty for striking at range. What can I get as a limitation for Stretching subject to range modifiers?

 

Right - so 10 points of STR provides 2d6 of augmented HA' date=' plus the 13 you mention for a total of 23 active points (19 real) plus some intangibles like lifting and grabbing power - all for 10 points.[/quote']

 

I've discussed my solution to the figured on prior threads. This one isn't about whether the price is appropriate, but how to allocate the new cost between the various benefits provided by STR.

 

I wouldn't make No figured CHA a -1 based on this reasoning' date=' however - applying the same logic to CON would suggest it should be -2 or greater, since almost all of the measureable benefit of CON is in Figured CHA. If you make the assumption that you get a price break for buying CHA (and that's fair enough - it applies to INT, CON and DEX as well), then I can easily accept no figured CHA at -1/2. [/quote']

 

The only stat where No Figured works is DEX. To me, the value should be set based on the relative value of the Figured's gained. BOD should be -1. CON and STR are tougher as they give back more figured than they cost. As I've posted on other threads, the better answer to me is to lower the costs of REC, STUN and END so buying these up without buying up CON or STR is economically practical.

 

You mention not seeing CON monsters. I've seen lots of Supers with 10 STR. I can't recall ever seeing a 10 CON super. The issue is less visible, but most Supers have CON above 20, and those that don't are pretty much always 18 or 20. Nevre really see a low DEX super either.

 

Only if you ignore the many and varied uses of STR - as noted' date=' spreading and bouncing are common to RKA and EB, adding STR is common to HA and HKA.[/quote']

 

+4d6 EB, cannot be spread or bounced would add to your EB as well. we just don't see such a construct very often. EB that cannot be spread or bounced is part of beam effect (-1/4). The other part is "must fire at max damage", which most characters do anyway, so that sets EB at 4 for damage and 1 for spreading.

 

More to the point' date=' if there really was an imbalance it would show up in game play, with ranged characters being favoured - but in fact, in the current system, the combat monsters are almost always STR-based, and even at 2 points per point of STR, HTH combatants are still very competitive.[/quote']

 

This depends on genre. Bricks have never dominated my Champs games.

[Lucius]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I find it hard to credit the assertion that 1d6 STR damage = 1d6 EB damage. The EB is ranged (+1/2 advantage) and can be Spread to enhance OCV or strike more targets, at the cost of losing some damage capacity, essentially making an EB a Multipower of three slots, added damage, added OCV and OCV limited to offsetting penalties for a Rapid Attack. If I were to accept the premise that 1d6 HTH damage = 1d6 EB, I would have to conclude that both the Ranged advantage and the ability to spread an attack should be repriced at -0.

 

 

Well, the two killing attack powers seem to be costed on the assumption that Ranged Attack and Stackable Damage are equivalent.

 

LA

p

[OddHat]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

STR Damage is already ranged within limits. Pick up a piece of the scenery and throw it. You'll lose a few d6 if it has low Def and Body, but still.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Well' date=' the two killing attack powers seem to be costed on the assumption that Ranged Attack and Stackable Damage are equivalent. [/quote']

 

There's similarity, but not complete equivalency. An RKA is ranged and can be spread. An HKA can't be spread. STR increases a HA without limit, where STR can only double the HKA. I suggest a +1 HA is a lot more useful than a 1 pip HKA (1/2d6 w/ STR) in most games, yet the former costs less than the latter.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I've never seen anything indicating that Indirect for TK is any more limited than Indirect for any other power for which the +3/4 advantage is paid. That doesn't let you bypass personal defenses' date=' of course, but if Iron Man built his armor as a vehicle, he may be in for a surprise![/quote']

I don't know if this is changed in 5ER, but in FREd, it says, "TK is inherently Indirect in some ways....The exact limits of what TK can do are always up to the GM." (emphasis mine, probably not an exact quote, but close)

 

As GM, I wouldn't allow TK to get inside Iron Man's armor even if it was built as a vehicle. In general, I wouldn't let TK get through barriers that are mostly solid and mostly opaque. Also in general, there must be a path to the target not obstructed by such barriers, though the path need not be a straight line. Thus for example, I wouldn't allow TK to attack the inner workings of a machine if those inner workings aren't visible.

 

And STR has one inherent "Indirect" quality to it - multiple points of origin. If you want to do damage, you can punch, kick, elbow, knee, head-butt, squeeze, etc.

 

And STR can get all kinds of advantages for free if there are objects of opportunity lying around. Pick up a rock, and you get Ranged. Bounce the rock and you get some partial benefit of Indirect. Pick up an I-beam or a table and you can get AE. Pick up a broken bottle, and you can do killing damage. Pick up a large sharp thing, and you can do even more killing damage with Area Effect!

 

Plus, you don't get fine manipulation with TK unless you pay extra.

 

STR increases a HA without limit, where STR can only double the HKA.

Good point. That's another change that I could be made. Make these work the same with STR: either both HA and HKA can be max doubled with STR, or both can be increased without limit with STR. Hmmm... there is one difference though: STR by itself only does Normal damage. HA adds more Normal damage. HKA OTOH, does more than simply add Killing damage - it converts the STR added from Normal to Killing. Perhaps that's the reason for the restriction on HKA. Now that I think about it, it seems like a darn good reason.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I don't know if this is changed in 5ER' date=' but in FREd, it says, "TK is inherently Indirect [i']in some ways[/i]....The exact limits of what TK can do are always up to the GM." (emphasis mine, probably not an exact quote, but close)

 

The same phrasing exists in 5e, I believe. Steve was asked on the Rules Q board some time ago, and indicated he culdn't think of anything a +3/4 Indirect power could accomplish that Telekinesis could not. I take that, and the math (Ranged, Indirect +3/4 and No Figured works out to 1.5x base cost) as adequate to indicate TK is pretty much fully Indirect.

 

If it isn't, I would expect the rules to indicate what advantage is required to render it fully indirect.

[Markdoc]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Good point. That's another change that I could be made. Make these work the same with STR: either both HA and HKA can be max doubled with STR' date=' or both can be increased without limit with STR. Hmmm... there is one difference though: STR by itself only does Normal damage. HA adds more Normal damage. HKA OTOH, does more than simply add Killing damage - it converts the STR added from Normal to Killing. Perhaps that's the reason for the restriction on HKA. Now that I think about it, it seems like a darn good reason.[/quote']

 

Yep. Back in the old days, it used to be called "nuclear-tipping". Your 60 STR character spends 5 points on 1pip HKA and Voila! he also has a 4d6+1 HKA.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Actually' date=' it gives you 6 1/2 d6 unless you buy Ranged on your remaining STR as well, costing an extra 5 points (+1d6 EB) to go up to 8 1/2 d6. My experience is that, in most games where a 10DC (11 DC) attack is the norm, a 6.5 (8.5) DC attack doesn't do much in the way of damage.[/quote']

 

Oops, you're right, I forgot to pro-rate STR, so you'd only get 8d6. Still the point remains - you're 15 points (2d6) down in ranged attack, way ahead in HTH attack AND you get 36 extra points to spend on Stat.s (plus some free leaping, but that doesn't count for much...). Sell back a little and you got a matching (but much more flexible) ranged attack, and a better Stat line.

 

Like I said, there's a reason Ranged STR is specifically singled out as a bad idea. In fact there are lots of "gotchas" associated with the current cost of STR - it has its own END rule, it has "things you should not do with STR" and HA (which is specifically described as limited STR) has this unique, peculiar mandatory limitation attached, to evade some of the pricing isues. The fact that standard hero rules start to ooze under pressure in the presence of STR is an indicator that the rules are being warped to accomodate it.

 

Still, it's a matter of preference - I like STR at 2 points, my players are happy with it and all is good. If you prefer not to change it, that's also fine.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

STR increases a HA without limit' date=' where STR can only double the HKA.[/quote']

 

If I'm not mistaken, that's only the case in superheroic games. In heroic, the hand attack is limited like the killing attack.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The neither I nor the palindromedary pretend to really understand how different damages stack....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

If I'm not mistaken' date=' that's only the case in superheroic games. In heroic, the hand attack is limited like the killing attack.[/quote']

 

I think that only applies to weapons, but I could certainly be mistaken.

[Lucius]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I think that only applies to weapons' date=' but I could certainly be mistaken.[/quote']

 

Well, the wording in FRED seems to imply that the rationale is involved with the fact that superheroes pay points for attacks, and normal heroes don't. But I posted a question to Mr. Long along the lines of "If a character in a heroic campaign, like a wizard with a spell or a gargoyle with stone hard fists, pays points for a hand attack, can they add STR to it without limits like a superhero, since they paid for it like a superhero?" His response was that the individual running the game could rule that it works like that, but the standard rule was no - it's limited just as if it were a weapon they didn't pay points for.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary claims I was bought as Extra Limbs, Ranged

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Well' date=' the wording in FRED seems to imply that the rationale is involved with the fact that superheroes pay points for attacks, and normal heroes don't. But I posted a question to Mr. Long along the lines of "If a character in a heroic campaign, like a wizard with a spell or a gargoyle with stone hard fists, pays points for a hand attack, can they add STR to it without limits like a superhero, since they paid for it like a superhero?" His response was that the individual running the game could rule that it works like that, but the standard rule was no - it's limited just as if it were a weapon they didn't pay points for.[/quote']

 

Fair enough, I suppose, although the poor wizard with a 6d6 HA Spell seems to get a raw deal (I guess he can make it -1/2 "STR Does not add", or buy an EB no Range instead and be able to Spread the attack).

 

Although, when I can buy "Deadly Blow" and add to the base damage of a weapon, it seems unreasonable that the Gargoyle (Wizard) can't buy (Cast) "Fists of Stone" to add to base STR damage.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Hint:

Docents aren't always as right as they think.

The whole set of greatsword myths have been pretty well debunked by the growing redactive/experiential archeology martial arts researcher crowd (which is getting pretty huge these days).

 

I have fought with a variety of claymores and other greatswords on foot. They are quite agile and dangerous weilded properly.

 

The str mins are a bit silly, but I tend to go with a "Weapons Training" Str only for Str Mins talent in various package deals... kind of like a proficincy... If you aren't trained and conditioned to weild weapons they're harder to use.

 

While I agree that "Weapons Training" has much to do with it and I really like your way of going about it, we should also look at the apparent size difference in humans from then til now... I don't know about you, but I certainly couldn't fit in the suits of armour I saw at the Armoury in London.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

While I agree that "Weapons Training" has much to do with it and I really like your way of going about it' date=' we should also look at the apparent size difference in humans from then til now... I don't know about you, but I certainly couldn't fit in the suits of armour I saw at the Armoury in London.[/quote']

Average heights varied a lot according to region and diet.

Part of the reason Claymores were so big is that the Scots were considered giants among men. The Norsemen & Milesian Celts that made up the dominant strains influencing both the Irish and Scots were both large framed and large boned. Including the redhead gene, which is gradulally being linked to a whole suite of subtraits that may be the last remaining hint of neanderthal man in our gene pool. Culturally speaking, the warrior aristocracy of both cultures ate WELL...lots of meat, butter, milk, barley and fruits. Not much scurvy, ricketts, goiter, or quite a few other malnutrition related inhibitors on growth. Both cultures placed high value on personal cleanliness, another positive environmental element.

 

generally, urbanization and "civilization" shrank down a lot of the larger cultures base stock as time unfolded.

[Markdoc]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

While I agree that "Weapons Training" has much to do with it and I really like your way of going about it' date=' we should also look at the apparent size difference in humans from then til now... I don't know about you, but I certainly couldn't fit in the suits of armour I saw at the Armoury in London.[/quote']

 

You're forgetting Henry' the VIII's champion, whose suit is there - 6' 7" of muscle

 

Plus you're forgetting the later Henry Suits - I could fit in those with another person curled up in the stomach part!

 

cheers, Mark

[zornwil]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

If STR is 2 for 1... does this remove any real need for Normal Characteristic Maxima increased costs? My intuitive sense tells me that NCM costs were created to keep every Fantasy Hero character from running around with a 25 plus STR because it would be so cheap an effective. The other stats figured into NCM were an after thought for the most part. With STR properly costed at 2 for 1, it ain't so cheap to ramp up your built in damage... making NCM superfluous (sp?) at best.

 

Thanks for any feedback.

 

On this latter point, I was thinking the other day that really NCM in Fantasy and similar sorts of "low powered" games should be just applied to STR and it would seem to me that this pretty well means that STR is 2 for 1 only after a break point. I could see doing the same even perhaps across the board, and this could perhaps simplify the issue.

 

PS - of course you'd have to deal with creating consistency and not allowing an exception for additional STR bought "not as a characteristic"