Magic Missiles

[Hierax]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Here's a simple version of Magic Missile, the non-automatic hit, non-always damage version:

• Magic Missile 3 (Original/Basic D&D): RKA 1d6+1 (20 Base Points); Penetrating (+½) (+½; 30 Active Points); Charges (1; -2), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼), Gestures (both hands; -½), Incantations (-¼), (-3; 7 Real Points).
  Plus +1 OCV with Magic Missile Spell (2 points) (Total: 9 Real Points).

N.B. This just uses the straight D&D damage of d6+1 but it would be a more in spirit conversion to allow for a variety of conversion of spell equivalents of the various Fantasy Hero versions of Longbows (FH.166 or EG.8):

• Light Longbow +1 = 1½d6 or 2d6-1, +1 RMod

• Medium Longbow +1 = 2d6, +1 RMod

• Heavy Longbow +1 = 2d6+1, +1 RMod

• Very Heavy Longbow +1 = 2½d6 or 3d6-1, +1 RMod

One may also, or alternately, want to include Armor Piercing and/or Piercing (Resistant) depending on how one sees magical bows. And Intelligence (or EGO) Minimum could be used as a restriction for these too.

 

Conversion Source Text:

 

Original D&D (Greyhawk Rules Supplement 1976, p.22):

• Magic Missile: This is a conjured missile equivalent to a magic arrow, and it does full damage (2-7 points) to any creature it strikes.For every five levels the magic-user has attained he may add an additional two missiles when employing this spell, so a 6th level magic-user may cast three magic missiles at his target, an 11th level magic-user casts five, and so on. Range 15".

Basic D&D (1979, p.13,15):

• Magic Missile – Level 1; Range: 150 feet A conjured missile equal to a magic arrow, and it does 1 die roll plus 1 point (2-7) to any creature it strikes. Roll the missile fire like a long bow arrow (Missile Fire Table). Higher level magic-users fire more than one missile.

[Curufea]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Hero doesn't deal well with absolutes (and IMO, rightly so). Magic Missles ALWAYS hit and Invulnerabilty means you NEVER take damage.

 

I disagree.

If Magic Missiles always hit, then Hit Points must represent the thickness of your body, healthiness of the muscles, and inherent ablative armour that is gained at every level.

If Magic Missiles do not always hit, then Hit Points represent dodging of a character and/or fatigue - and the first several volleys of MM always "miss" (or do not hit the person) which is represented by loss of Hit Points that are representing fatigue of the high level character stepping out of the way.

 

The Absolute of the MM meeting the Abstract of HP cancels out.

 

(to be picky, once any affect in D&D starts doing HP damage, it is so abstracted that you can apply any effect you damn well please)

[Hierax]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Good point!

 

The "missed me" factor of Hit Points means that a hit isn't always a hit.

[CourtFool]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

The "missed me" factor of Hit Points means that a hit isn't always a hit.

 

Then why do you need a Cleric to 'heal' you?

[Hierax]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Yeah, that's one of the problems with being too abstract.

 

Still, Curufea's point about Hit Points is the most creative argument/justification that I've ever seen for not actually needing a Hero-approximated Absolute to convert Magic Missile.

 

Personally, I like Hero better because it is less abstract (e.g., difference between "hitting" and "damaging") but it has to be careful as some builds are creeping in that create similar problems to D&D abstractness -- Combat Luck, I'm looking at you!

 

Anyway, how about some more MM write-ups.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

for magic missile, summon a loyal tiny creature with an area-effect damage shield, and move-through levels.

 

all it does is zoom to target, cause damage, and disappear.

scale up power to suit. it feels just like magic missile to me.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

1. Tell that to a level 1 mage. 1d4+1 sucks to those low HP back rank hidin' scum.

 

2 is clever but, eh. I wouldn't want that to become an example of what to do with spells that are less trivial.

 

3 is just out of character for the summon spell. Artillery, for instance, should not be bought as a summon.

 

I do have to say this though - why contemplate the never misses/absolutely hits all the time thing? Its not Heroish. Lets face it, DnD wasn't built on a set of principles from the get go (I'm old enough to remember the original soft bound books so I can attest to this.) Hits 90% of the time to primative screwheads in fantasy worlds IS THE SAME THING AS always hits!

 

 

 

I can think of 3 ways to build it, the good, the bad and the horribly broken

 

1) good: AoE 1 hex accurate affects desolid NND EB (not does body as 1d4+1 damage per missle hardly does body to a DnD character,)

 

2) bad: AoE 1 hex accurate as above but megascaled so 1 hex = the world (this way you can't DFC from it, which i don't like but may appeal to some)

 

3) The Horribly broken (and my favorite) build it as a summon which continues to attempt movebys on the target until it succeds.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

:sigh: Okay, for my version of an Advantage, see my old Automatic Hit Advantage thread (note: the ensuing discussion is probably pretty necessary for grasping the full concept).

[Hierax]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Yeah, I use pretty much the same thing:

http://www.hierax.com/hero/house/aha.txt

Automatic Hit Advantage (AHA)

 

One thing that the HERO System lacks is a way to automatically hit

a target without having to make an attack roll, so I've created an

"Automatic Hit Advantage" (AHA).

 

The logic being that if the NND Advantage can bypass all of a

target's normal DEF, then there should be an Advantage to bypass all

of a target's normal DCV.

 

An attack with this Power Advantage ignores all conventional DCV.

 

When a character purchases an attack with the "Automatic Hit"

Advantage, he must define a reasonably common Power or circumstance,

or a set of uncommon Powers or circumstances as the defence. If the

target has this defence, then the attack misses completely.

 

N.B. This Advantage can't be used to unerringly target a specific

hit location.

 

AUTOMATIC HIT ATTACK COST MULTIPLIER: +1

 

If you don't like this I suggest that, in most cases, you use

Area Effect One Hex (+1/2) and No Range Penalty (+1/2) in its place

as combined they have give the same cost calculations -- i.e., merely

consider "AHA" as shorthand for these two limitations.

 

=======================================================================

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Just an observation...

 

This would not be so automatic when combined with Rapid Attack.

 

Dive For Cover would still work against this.

 

Question for the GM's out there:

 

When your NPC's are attacking characters with an AOE Power do you always describe the AOE nature of the attack? If not did you build the attack with some level of IPE to reflect this?

 

I ask this because not all common real-world AOE attacks are visible.

 

Example: Grenade

 

Characters might recognize the grenade for what it is but the physical casing does not convey it's explosive nature the same way as a blast from a Flamethrower.

[Curufea]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Then why do you need a Cleric to 'heal' you?

Shh!

I mentioned the war once, but I think I got away with it.

 

[/basil Fawly]

[Hierax]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Personally, I'm quite OK with +1 Always Hits Advantage (AHA) and don't let things like Dive for Cover apply, the Area of Effect (AoE) etc. Advantages are just there so that Hero fans who can't handle absolutes can still use the write-ups.

 

I think it's faster and simplier to just let the damn thing hit than making an extra attack roll and/or jumping through a bunch of flaming hoops of twisted Advantages about it but the anti-absolutes crowd seems to be in the majority.

 

That said the beauty of the Hero System is to allow more than one way to write a power up so there's plenty of room for cool non-absolutist versions of Magic Missles too, I just don't see why it has to be one or the other, can't we have it both ways?

[CorpCommander]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

I think it's faster and simplier to just let the damn thing hit than making an extra attack roll and/or jumping through a bunch of flaming hoops of twisted Advantages about it but the anti-absolutes crowd seems to be in the majority.

 

From a GM point of view its the type of advantage that could get severely abused. A smart and savvy GM won't get burned by it, knowing when to say no. An inexperienced one might not - and the player might not even being trying to munchkinize their character either.

 

Your thoughts about avoiding a lot of twisted advantages is totally dead on.

 

What an interesting thread by the way. I haven't been on these boards in MONTHS so its good to come back and see the discussions are as vibrant as ever.

[Curufea]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

I still don't think Magic Missile always hits in D&D.

It always hits level 1 and 0 characters, but after that, everyone dodges/loses fatigue. Represented by the additional HP every class gets at higher levels.

[Hierax]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

I just don't think that "always hitting" is any more powerful than "always doing damage" -- it is basically the same concept as NND.

 

Heck, if anything according to Hero costing guidelines it should be cheaper (OCV cost vs. DC cost) but due to the innate Hero fanbase resistance to Absolutes +1 seems to be the rough threshold of acceptability (especially because it still needs another +1 to Do BODY Damage (+2 total). YMMV.

 

So, yeah, AHA could be a great Advantage but so is NND. For Overpowered/Undercosted look more to MegaScale and the like.

 

I think there are a lot more things that the HERO system can simulate with NND than without and I think that AHA also adds rather than it takes away from the system.

[Hierax]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Let's not get hung up on one thing, there are other key aspects to the Magic Missile conversion:

• Always Damages:

• AVLD (+1½), Does BODY (+1) vs. ? force field, power def, ...
  
  
• NND (+1; vs ...), Does BODY (+1)
  
  
• Penetrating (+½)

• Multiple Missiles:

• Autofire (AF)
  
  
• Multiple Attack Advantage (MAA)
  
  
• Rapid Fire
  
  
• Reduced Penetration (large attack divided up)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Don't forget that multiple missiles can also be simulated by Spreading an EB.

[Rapier]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

I still don't think Magic Missile always hits in D&D.

It always hits level 1 and 0 characters, but after that, everyone dodges/loses fatigue. Represented by the additional HP every class gets at higher levels.

 

I still don't understand where you are getting that HP represents some kind of fatigue. If you are standing naked in a room and someone sticks a knife into you, you take some HP in damage...that's damage not fatigue.

 

Hit Points - a number representing:

1) How much damage a character can suffer before being killed, determined by Hit Dice. The hit points lost to injust can usually be regained by rest or healing.

 

2) How much damage a specific attack does, determined by weapon or monster statistics, and subtracted from player's total.

 

Your personal take on HP may be something akin to fatigue or even magic fairy dust (for that matter), but it's certainly not canon and does not represent what the actual game itself says.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

I still don't understand where you are getting that HP represents some kind of fatigue. If you are standing naked in a room and someone sticks a knife into you' date=' you take some HP in damage...that's damage not fatigue.[/quote']

 

So a 20th level dwarven fighter with a 20 CON can soak up 214.5 (average rolls for 19 levels) damage, or well over 80 average dagger strikes, before being in any danger of death? That's as much as HOW MANY elephants again? And when he's at 2 hp (99% dead), he's pretty much unimpaired in any way, expect that the next hit will probably take him down?

 

The fatigue/luck factor may not be in 3e, but is the reason given in prior editions - only the last few hp represent that actual damaging blow that impairs, and ultimately kills, the target. It's also one reason given for many saving throws that improve with level - if that 20' scorpion only inflicted a tiny nick, did any significant venom actually get into the wound?

 

Your personal take on HP may be something akin to fatigue or even magic fairy dust (for that matter)' date=' but it's certainly not canon and does not represent what the actual game itself says.[/quote']

 

Depends on the edition. ARE you arguing that a 12 CON wizard, 20th level (average hp 71.5) can actually take the same physical punishment as a dinosaur before keeling over?

[Hierax]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

The DMG (1e p.82) defines Hit Points more clearly and there are clearly some evasion, combat experience, sixth-sense, luck, etc, elements to it.

"It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damages takes place. ..."

- Gary Gygax

[CourtFool]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

The DMG (1e p.82) defines Hit Points more clearly and there are clearly some evasion, combat experience, sixth-sense, luck, etc, elements to it.

"It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damages takes place. ..."

- Gary Gygax

 

...and that is why Dex added to Hit Points, no wait...well at least that is why armor soaked up damage, er, no...

 

My own personal opinion is and feel free to disagree, although you will be wrong, is that they mechanic was flawed from the begining and they were just scrambling to apply some sort of logic to it.

 

In the same breath, I happen to like Combat Luck. But, yes, it is starting to swerve in the same direction.

 

While I like the idea of an Always Hits Advantage, I would be extremely hesitant to allow it into a game. This just may be because I seem to attract all the munchkins, but I can just see everyone buying AHA and no DEX or Combat Skill Levels. You could argue that it would be expensive and would leave your DCV vulnerable, but we all know the munchkins would find their way around that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

While I like the idea of an Always Hits Advantage' date=' I would be extremely hesitant to allow it into a game. This just may be because I seem to attract all the munchkins, but I can just see everyone buying AHA and no DEX or Combat Skill Levels. You could argue that it would be expensive and would leave your DCV vulnerable, but we all know the munchkins would find their way around that.[/quote']

 

Well, if you assume that those extra points on DEX would find their way into PD and ED instead, who cares if you have a low DCV?

[Alcamtar]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

In HERO, combat is a physical simulation. How long you stay standing is determined by physical parameters, whether or not that fits the needs of the story.

 

In D&D, combat is story-based. Hits and damage are abstract story elements that define the minimum and maximum rounds you can stay standing in combat. (Monsters always hit on a 20, and a hit always does at least 1 pt, so there is a finite cap on how long you can stay standing in combat.)

 

Therefore it is undefined in D&D whether or not a magic missile hits, or how much physical damage it does. Rather it is a plot device that hinders or kills low level goons easily, but can be mostly ignored by powerful heroes.

 

Magic Missile also disrupts spell casting, but that is a general feature of D&D combat and is probably best modeled by requiring Concentation: 0 DCV on all spells. Either you're a sitting duck, or you abort the spell and defend yourself.

 

VERSION 1: A major attack with a low OCV would take out goons but not affect powerful characters. RKA 3d6 Energy, cannot penetrate magical force fields (-1/4).

 

VERSION 2: In original D&D, magic missile was simply a conjured arrow that automatically hit. RKA 1d6+1 (Light Longbow), +5 OCV, Autofire

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Ah, yes. Hence the old D&D jokes about 10th level fighters being able to survive atmospheric reentry and all that. Heh. Hitpoints. One more thing I don't miss playing Hero (here we at least need some decent PD/ED to survive reentry! ).

[CorpCommander]

Re: Magic Missiles

 

Heh, I like how people argume more about DnD on the Hero boards than they do about Hero itself... :-p