help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

[LordGhee]

Gents, I posted this message for Mr Long,

 

If you buy a 3pt cbt level in MA, is it usable for all MA or dose it follow the the rule of 3 (MA Strike ocv and dcv and dcv in MA dodge only example.

 

we have some different ideals in our group.

 

Lord Ghee

__________________

I got the see Page 54, 5ER response

 

NOw I really love the fact that you can get a response, and get a quick response but

 

a yes or no would have been nice, as in our group we support Hero Games and have copies of 5ER , We where dicussing this with our books open.

 

One of our players buy MA and lots of MA Maneuvers and expects to use 3 pt MA levels with them all. (Ocv and Dcv)

 

So what do you rule

thanks

Lord Ghee

Me and El Tripon had all the books open and call orthers in El Paso (home of the best Hero gaming) for thier ruling.

Wow that brag made me count two groups which has common members with the orther -our group 7 vets and 3 New (Fan Hero on Fri and champions on Sunday)

[Bloodstone]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

that's some annoying formating man...

 

anyhow:

 

- You can only apply a single CSL once per phase.

 

- 3pt levels can increase OCV, DCV or Damage.

 

- 3pt levels can be applied to any number of martial maneuvers within a single martial arts style. Doesn't matter how many maneuvers he knows, he can use those levels with each of them. So if the character knows Boxing and Karate, the 3 pt levels would have to be selected as +x with Boxing or +x with Karate. If you know multiple styles, you are better off buying the 5pt HtH levels.

 

How is the PC buying maneuvers? Is he just picking everythign he wants and asking to assigne 3pt csl's to his hodgpodge style? For that matter, how many CSL's are you lettign him buy? Are you using CV caps at all?

[Alibear]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

Steve Long doesn't follow the rull of three.

 

Der Bogenschütze from Champions World has something like 15 different trick arrow slots in an MP and several 3 point skill levels with them.

 

Stick to one loosely defined group and you're fine according to Mr. Long. If that is every Kung Fu maneuver in the UMA it would still be legal.

[LordGhee]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

Generally The only caps are point totals in our low points games. In the champs games they do have point caps in attk and def, I do not like caps.

 

sorry about the formatting it what happens late before sleep

 

In general the players buy a lot of MA Maneuvers and define them as the style. I have never seen a player have more than one style (this might be important in a MA game.)

 

 

My view in reading that the example on page 54 5ER in that the 3 pt level in Karate was usable for OCV only with all MA Maneuvers.

 

 

Lord Ghee

[LordGhee]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

Thanks Alibear,

 

Is this different than 4 ( I have caught my self doing things the old way a number of times)

 

Lord Ghee

[Alibear]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

Thanks Alibear,

 

Is this different than 4 ( I have caught my self doing things the old way a number of times)

 

Lord Ghee

 

 

It is different IIRC, things would have to be more tightly defined than now.

 

HTH levels are always a better buy IMHO anyway, martial arts like Karate are very limited as a rule. You need to buy lots and lots of maneuvers to make 3 point skill levels work for you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

Steve Long doesn't follow the rull of three.

 

Der Bogenschütze from Champions World has something like 15 different trick arrow slots in an MP and several 3 point skill levels with them.

 

Stick to one loosely defined group and you're fine according to Mr. Long. If that is every Kung Fu maneuver in the UMA it would still be legal.

 

My recollection is that 3 point levels were for a group of maneuvers, either a defined group or (added later) 3 unrelated maneuvers. In your example, would you prefer the character be charged 5 points per level with the MP, in which case why should he not just buy 5 point levels with all ranged combat in case he wants to use a ranged attack other than his own Multipower?

 

The system can only be so granular, so there will always be breakpoints where the judgement call could reasonably go either way. This is one of them. Will DB ever use a ranged attack other than his Multipower? Maybe not, but maybe he will. And "just these powers" is a smaller suite than "all ranged attacks", just as "martial arts" is a lesser pool than "all HTH".

[ghost-angel]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

Steve Long doesn't follow the rull of three.

 

Der Bogenschütze from Champions World has something like 15 different trick arrow slots in an MP and several 3 point skill levels with them.

 

Stick to one loosely defined group and you're fine according to Mr. Long. If that is every Kung Fu maneuver in the UMA it would still be legal.

As Hugh pointed out - it's not "a rule of 3" it's a "tightly defined group." Always has been, even in 4E 3pt CSLs were for tight groups: Pistols, Karate, Multipower Pool or Trick Arrows.

 

The "rule of 3" is for 3 completely unrelated attacks:

My Fire Fist HA, Haymaker, Spikey Glove HKA. for a badly thought out example.

[pinecone]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

Yeah...what he said, I also consider Martial arts to be martial arts. So +3 w/MA will work in my games even if you decide you know Pakua,Aikido and Zapotle (sp?) Even so 5 pointers are good for regular moves and are still a good buy for a martial artist...

[Kharis2000]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

I tend to restrict the use of 3-point CSL's to styles that players have met the requirements for the 'Style Disadvantage" in: ie, they have the skills listed for each style as necessary to 'know' the style. That cuts down on some of the 'buy six maneuvers and call it a style' problems in my games.

[ghost-angel]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

Good approach, Rep when I can (apparently I've used my rep stick too much lately).

[Silbeg]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

I tend to restrict the use of 3-point CSL's to styles that players have met the requirements for the 'Style Disadvantage" in: ie' date=' they have the skills listed for each style as necessary to 'know' the style. That cuts down on some of the 'buy six maneuvers and call it a style' problems in my games.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

 

Another way to handle it, in my opinion, would be to require that characters take a predefined style. This could be one they create, but requires enough flushing out that there is a true style to it.

 

However, I probably would hesitate if their style was Commando Training or Dirty Infighting (or whatever it is called these days), since these aren't really styles.

 

I know in my game, we have also looked at levels with Multipowers to sometimes require 5-point levels instead of 3 point... usually if a variety of attack types are used in the MP (such as HtH and Ranged, or Mental powers).

[Zed-F]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

HTH levels are always a better buy IMHO anyway' date=' martial arts like Karate are very limited as a rule. You need to buy lots and lots of maneuvers to make 3 point skill levels work for you.[/quote']

I can't say I agree here. Martial arts packages are generally more points-efficient with fewer maneuvers than with many. And HTH combat levels are way less effective than 3-point levels and just straight DEX in CV-for-your-points mileage.

 

If you want a character to be highly capable generally, stick with straight stats like STR and DEX, unless you're in a game with NCM applied. If you want your character to be focussed on a particular skillset, then 3-point levels are fine. If you want to have a character who's highly capable with a diverse skillset/fighting style in a NCM game... better hope that points aren't an issue.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

I tend to restrict the use of 3-point CSL's to styles that players have met the requirements for the 'Style Disadvantage" in: ie' date=' they have the skills listed for each style as necessary to 'know' the style. That cuts down on some of the 'buy six maneuvers and call it a style' problems in my games.[/quote']

 

Unless you are hidebound to only allowing real world styles and further only allowing them as interpreted in a published book, there is nothing wrong with "buy some manuevers and call it a style", and in fact this flexiblity is one of the most attractive features of the HERO System Martial Arts rules IMO. In fact, martial manuevers don't have to be part of a formal style at all -- they can be used to represent someone that is just naturally good at fighting.

 

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As others have pointed out, even if you have a lot of manuevers "Martial Manuevers" is still more limited than "all HtH Attacks" and 3pt tight group CSLs are entirely appropriate compared to the 5 pt HtH CSL's.

[prestidigitator]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

I like keeping a style as just a SFX/flavor thing. There should be nothing special about it in terms of game mechanics (except that it only takes 1 CP to add a Weapon Element to, "a style"). Furthermore, Martial Arts Maneuvers give plenty of bang for the buck without also increasing the versatility of the character's CSLs. And I find it a lot more common that a character has one style rather than several, and tends to use it (understandably) instead of standard Maneuvers whenever possible (most of the time).

 

So I'd limit 3-point CSLs to 3 Maneuvers, whether they be standard ones or Martial Maneuvers. I've never even been particularly fond of a 3-point level applying to a whole Multipower, as a character with attacks in their Multipower tends to have all or most of their attacks in the Multipower. However, I'd say it's reasonable to have 5-point CSLs with all Martial Arts or with a Multipower (both HTH and Ranged in each case).

 

EDIT: Hmm. 3-point CSLs can apply to weapons of a Tight Group, though. I think if the Martial Arts has a Weapon Element I would allow 3-point CSLs to apply to all Maneuvers in which the weapon is definitely playing a primary role; for example: Strike, Martial Strike, possibly Martial Grab for a weapon like a chain, Block and Martial Block for most rigid weapons, but not likely Dodge, Dive for Cover, Martial Throw, etc.

[Alibear]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

I can't say I agree here. Martial arts packages are generally more points-efficient with fewer maneuvers than with many. And HTH combat levels are way less effective than 3-point levels and just straight DEX in CV-for-your-points mileage.

 

If you want a character to be highly capable generally, stick with straight stats like STR and DEX, unless you're in a game with NCM applied. If you want your character to be focussed on a particular skillset, then 3-point levels are fine. If you want to have a character who's highly capable with a diverse skillset/fighting style in a NCM game... better hope that points aren't an issue.

 

 

I suppose it depends how your character approaches a fight. If he only chooses to do things that are written on his character sheet (Matial punch etc) then 3 point levels are the way to go.

 

If the character gets up to all sorts of stuff, perhaps fighting with more flair and imagination then broader skill levels work better. YMMV

[Alibear]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

My recollection is that 3 point levels were for a group of maneuvers, either a defined group or (added later) 3 unrelated maneuvers. In your example, would you prefer the character be charged 5 points per level with the MP, in which case why should he not just buy 5 point levels with all ranged combat in case he wants to use a ranged attack other than his own Multipower?

 

The system can only be so granular, so there will always be breakpoints where the judgement call could reasonably go either way. This is one of them. Will DB ever use a ranged attack other than his Multipower? Maybe not, but maybe he will. And "just these powers" is a smaller suite than "all ranged attacks", just as "martial arts" is a lesser pool than "all HTH".

 

Good point, well made.

[Zed-F]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

I suppose it depends how your character approaches a fight. If he only chooses to do things that are written on his character sheet (Matial punch etc) then 3 point levels are the way to go.

 

If the character gets up to all sorts of stuff, perhaps fighting with more flair and imagination then broader skill levels work better. YMMV

I would tend to say that in that case, more DEX works better still.

[Shike019]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

They way My Martial Artist bought CSLs was actually a couple of All Combat, a DCV and an HTH. He has both Jujutsu and Kenjutsu. Both myself and my GM assumed that a 3pt CSL would only work for 1 martial art, not both.

[ghost-angel]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

They way My Martial Artist bought CSLs was actually a couple of All Combat' date=' a DCV and an HTH. He has both Jujutsu and Kenjutsu. Both myself and my GM assumed that a 3pt CSL would only work for 1 martial art, not both.[/quote']

Techincally you are correct, a 3pt CSL works for only one type of Martial Art.

 

It seems several ppl house rule the 3pr CSL to mean "Martial Arts" and not a specific art as the book would have you do. I prefer the books method personally.

[pinecone]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

I'm one of those people...after all many modern martial arts were "created" by people who studied many differant arts, then created their own unique form...why should a Hero be more limited?.

 

Annother reason I have no problem with 3 pointers Is the "Dex vs levels" issue.

In almost all cases 5 or higher levels have a real problem when compaired to plain ol' Dex. And after all, as stated before "All of my attack multi" is still a subset of "All attacks".....YMMV

[Alibear]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

After thinking about it I think that 3 point skill levels for all HTH martial Arts would work fine.

 

What if you had a character with Kyujutsu, Aikido & Kenjutsu?

 

In your opinion would you need to buy 5 point skill levels to be proficcient in both ranged and HTH Martial Arts?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

After thinking about it I think that 3 point skill levels for all HTH martial Arts would work fine.

 

What if you had a character with Kyujutsu, Aikido & Kenjutsu?

 

In your opinion would you need to buy 5 point skill levels to be proficcient in both ranged and HTH Martial Arts?

 

That's more or less equivalent to 8 ppoint levels with all combat, -1/2 "only martial maneuvers", so probably fair enough. Similarly, a level with MA could be considered +1 level with HTH, only martial maneuvers (-1/2).

[pinecone]

Re: help with 3 pt Ma levels, please

 

After thinking about it I think that 3 point skill levels for all HTH martial Arts would work fine.

 

What if you had a character with Kyujutsu, Aikido & Kenjutsu?

 

In your opinion would you need to buy 5 point skill levels to be proficcient in both ranged and HTH Martial Arts?

Dividing up for both HTH and ranged I'd lean hard for 5 pointers it's less than "all combat"...but it is "all the combat I'm likely to be doing"