Hugh Neilson Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Just a counterpoint' date=' as much as I would deplore such an act in the real world or anything resembling it, in a world where dragons are Color Coded For Your Convenience and some colors are Always Chaotic Evil, in an objective and verifiable sense, then wouldn't ridding the world of a large number of such dragons be a Good-aligned act? In a D&D Morality world, I would agree with you. That's the premise the characters operate under. I'm uncertain whether that is the intent in OoTS. Although it certainly was at the outset, the strip has evolved to a much more three dimensional fictional universe than the D&D satire it started out as. I bet the Paladin they had all that trouble with would think it was a Good act! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick ...unless OotS got upgraded to 4th without any noticeable indications... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Just a counterpoint' date=' as much as I would deplore such an act in the real world or anything resembling it, in a world where dragons are Color Coded For Your Convenience and some colors are Always Chaotic Evil, in an objective and verifiable sense, then wouldn't ridding the world of a large number of such dragons be a Good-aligned act? Perhaps. But is it still a Good-aligned act if one takes Evil, sadistic glee in performing it? V's enjoying himself way too much to be a truly Good act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Just a counterpoint' date=' as much as I would deplore such an act in the real world or anything resembling it, in a world where dragons are Color Coded For Your Convenience and some colors are Always Chaotic Evil, in an objective and verifiable sense, then wouldn't ridding the world of a large number of such dragons be a Good-aligned act? A 3.5 fan would have to weigh in on this, but IIRC the rule has always been that racial alignments are general, with specific exceptions. Drzzt the Drow can be Chaotic Good, even if the alignment of his Race is Chaotic Evil. Considering the number of dragons V just killed, chances are high that at least a few were non-Evil, especially considering the cross breeds. Even in D&D morality, killing a Good person because he has an Evil relative is an Evil act. Also, Rich is very fond of exploring the range of personalities within an alignment, and his Goblin society (explored in one of the books) looked Neutral verging on Good; I'd be very surprised if he didn't allow for good aligned Black dragons in his world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick A 3.5 fan would have to weigh in on this, but IIRC the rule has always been that racial alignments are general, with specific exceptions. Drzzt the Drow can be Chaotic Good, even if the alignment of his Race is Chaotic Evil. Considering the number of dragons V just killed, chances are high that at least a few were non-Evil, especially considering the cross breeds. Even in D&D morality, killing a Good person because he has an Evil relative is an Evil act. Also, Rich is very fond of exploring the range of personalities within an alignment, and his Goblin society (explored in one of the books) looked Neutral verging on Good; I'd be very surprised if he didn't allow for good aligned Black dragons in his world. Not to mention that spell executed dragons still in the egg who were no threat to anyone at that time. The potential to choose either Good/Neutral/Evil was taken away from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Just a counterpoint' date=' as much as I would deplore such an act in the real world or anything resembling it, in a world where dragons are Color Coded For Your Convenience and some colors are Always Chaotic Evil, in an objective and verifiable sense, then wouldn't ridding the world of a large number of such dragons be a Good-aligned act? No. Berlew is using 3.0 rules, and not only did they connect Good with "respect for life" so that you couldn't kill people just for being Evil and maintain a Good alignment yourself, but under those rules flesh and blood species were not absolutely tied to any alignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Gillen Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick And in any event is it not Evil to "preemptively" kill other beings when they haven't attacked you and aren't in position to do so? JG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick No. Berlew is using 3.0 rules' date=' and not only did they connect Good with "respect for life" so that you couldn't kill people just for being Evil and maintain a Good alignment yourself, but under those rules flesh and blood species were not absolutely tied to any alignment.[/quote'] No, they upgraded to 3.5 WAY early in the series. In the first storyline And as has been mentioned before, Killing an entire family like that is evil. V has been lost to us. At least for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick And in any event is it not Evil to "preemptively" kill other beings when they haven't attacked you and aren't in position to do so? JG (Insert joke referencing Ozymandius fans and Dick Cheney here) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Evil is pink? Even if Vaarsuvius is evil that does not preclude being in the Order of the Stick nor being a useful member. Remember Belkar. That ominous suggestion "Tear down creation just to see if you can" aside, Vaarsuvius and at least some (two out of three) of her "new friends" will be motivated to stop the archlich. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary wonders if we'll ever see a good character in the Linear Guild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick A new one is up. Epic level Necromancy spell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Oh, look, a re-run already... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick The palindromedary wonders if we'll ever see a good character in the Linear Guild. We did. The Inigo Montoya tribute kobold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick I agree what V's action would be evil in any realistic universe--I'm not arguing that *I* think it's a good thing to do. Indeed, things like this point out the limitations of the "standard D&D model". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick We did. The Inigo Montoya tribute kobold. Do we have reason to believe him good? Lucius Alexander The palindromedary acknowledges we have no reason to think him evil, unless revenge is evil..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Do we have reason to believe him good? IIRC, he comments that he would never associate with scum like the Linear Guild, save that it brought him closer to the halfling who killed his father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick IIRC' date=' he comments that he would never associate with scum like the Linear Guild, save that it brought him closer to the halfling who killed his father.[/quote'] I remember that. I'll agree that's a strong indication for being non-evil - although I'm sure it's quite possible for some evil beings to regard others as "scum." Nothing Inigo did was evil, unless one counts revenge as an evil motive - and one could easily point out the difference between wanting to kill a killer, and the kind of obviously unjust revenge of the dragon wanting to kill the killer's family. But what convinces me is remembering that Nale deliberately tries to make the Linear Guild the "evil opposite" of the Order of the Stick. Belkar being definitely evil, Nale might have opposed him with someone good. He couldn't have been VERY good though, if he was going along with the Linear Guild's plans of kidnapping and ambush. So I guess my question should be - will we see a good member of the Linear Guild who actually sticks around for more than one scene? Regarding Vaarsuvius' act - "Familicide" in this case is not, strictly speaking, revenge. The intention seems to be to put a final and definite end to the cycle of revenge, in order to protect the family. Not, mind you, that such an excessive measure is justified. I think "Lets kill them all, just in case" thinking counts as evil. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary wonders if Chaotic Evil Clerics have to take unholy disorders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick We could use the Dragonlance D&D series to make a judgment about V's alignment. In that series "good" magic-users generally wore white, "neutral" generally wore red and "evil" generally wore black. V has, up until now, worn red (denoting neutral) but after the indwelling of the three evil magic users his robes have gone to black. There is also the case of the vampire-like fangs that V has grown, generally not a "goodness and light" characteristic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick Not to mention our unholy trio said "You have the Good, or in this case the Neutral as it were". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick I thought D&D was the epitome of "Winner defines Good?" It's kinda hard-coded into the game; you have to hack the Hack to avoid it. Familicide has that whiff of a spell greenlit by the GM who didn't realize just how extensive it's effects could be on a long-lived species like dragons. This spells reach and breadth makes me think the undead dragonhead might be only one or two generations from Tiamat or some god level creature. V may have just bitten off more than he can chew, even Delta V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Gillen Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick We could use the Dragonlance D&D series to make a judgment about V's alignment. In that series "good" magic-users generally wore white' date=' "neutral" generally wore red and "evil" generally wore black. V has, up until now, worn red (denoting neutral) but after the indwelling of the three evil magic users his robes have gone to black. There is also the case of the vampire-like fangs that V has grown, generally not a "goodness and light" characteristic.[/quote'] "I See A Red Robe And I Want To Paint It Black" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick "No dragons anymore I killed all of the black." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick "I see the elves walk buy dressed in the oddest clothes , I wonder "girls or guys" because no gender shows" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick "I See A Red Robe And I Want To Paint It Black" "No dragons anymore I killed all of the black." "I see the elves walk buy dressed in the oddest clothes ' date=' I wonder "girls or guys" because no gender shows"[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Re: Order of the Stick I agree what V's action would be evil in any realistic universe--I'm not arguing that *I* think it's a good thing to do. Indeed' date=' things like this point out the limitations of the "standard D&D model".[/quote'] It was a necromancy spell, and I believe all of those are Evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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