Multiform and OIHID

[Ryan72]

Hi, I'm a GM for Champions campaign and I need some help in settling a rules dispute.

 

I have player in my game who is making a brick character who has a weaker, smaller teenage form. (Your basic Billy Batson / Capt Marvel deal)

 

Now, the way I understand it, a character can use Multiform to simulate this (effectively creating two different characters) ...

 

**OR**

 

purchase all the superhuman powers and characteristics as OIHID (When not in "super" form, our hero loses all the OIHID powers and becomes "normal")

 

Pretty straightforward so far right??

 

He sat down at my PC and used my HeroDesigner to make the character.

 

He used the Multiform option.

 

So I began looking over Brutus (the heroic form) and Virgil ( the normal form)

 

Apparently Brutus had some of his powers created with the OIHID limitaion.

 

So I said "Hold on a sec, you can't do that."

"Yes I can" he said.

 

"No you can't!!! You've already created the hero and his alter ego using multiform!"

 

"So?"

 

"Look, you've already defined the character as having 2 distinct forms. You've put limits on the Multiform power as to how and when the character can transform. You can't use OIHID to further limit the character in this case"

 

"Yes I can! It says so in the book! If the character has two distinct forms then he has the OIHID limitation"

 

"The character Brutus is never going to be limited by an OIHID limitaion!! He will always be either Brutus at full strength or Virgil the normal weakling. There will never be a scenario where Brutus can't access his powers due to an OIHID limitaion while in Brutus mode!"

 

"Yes he will!!! He can only access those powers while he's in Brutus mode! THerefore he can apply OIHID!!"

 

We argued like that for quite some time. Ultimately - I'm the GM - I told him he could either use the multiform option or the OIHID option. NOT BOTH

 

He was miffed at me for a while but he got over it.

 

Am I in the right here?? Am I correct in my interpretation of the rules?? Or am I just crazy??

[Robyn]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

"The character Brutus is never going to be limited by an OIHID limitaion!! He will always be either Brutus at full strength or Virgil the normal weakling. There will never be a scenario where Brutus can't access his powers due to an OIHID limitaion while in Brutus mode!"

 

In such a situation OIHID would not be limiting. However,

 

"Look' date=' you've already defined the character as having 2 distinct forms. You've put limits on the Multiform power as to how and when the character can transform. You can't use OIHID to further limit the character in this case"[/quote']

 

It is possible to use both; for instance, if the character has two normal forms, and each can transform into a HeroID (possibly different heroes, though now that's giving me a headache).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

In the case you brought up ... you're dead on correct.

[gojira]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Er, which one? Ryan or Robyn?

[Robyn]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Er' date=' which one? Ryan or Robyn? [/quote']

 

I think Ryan . . . I didn't really bring up a situation and a question (though I have been thinking of asking about it).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

For OIHID to be legit, there must be some reasonable way to frustrate taking on the heroic ID. I would not allow the second form to have OIHID unless there is some action the second form must take to change from its own base form (which you will always start in after assuming that form) to its heroic form.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Er' date=' which one? Ryan or Robyn? [/quote']

My comment was aimed at Ryan.

[gojira]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Danke

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Am I in the right here?? Am I correct in my interpretation of the rules?? Or am I just crazy??

 

You are the GM. By definition you are right and he is wrong. End of discussion.

 

That being said, the rules back up your call on this. A Limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any points. Unless the Brutus form is by default "normal" and then has to do something to power up to heroic ID, OIHID is not at all limiting for him.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

What everyone else said. They are two different ways of accomplishing the same thing. 99% of the time you'll never see them used on the same character.

 

Unless Brutus starts off puny and gains all his powers through some kind of transformation, he doesn't get OIHID. He IS the heroic ID.

 

-Nate

[Ryan72]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Thankyou everyone for your input and support!

[Alibear]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Don't take guff from players, you are God....er GM.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Keep in mind that it is generally inefficient to NOT use OIHID, so you may want to steer him towards OIHID.

 

Anyways. Yeah, the key point is that Multiform _creates TWO characters_, so OIHID is only appropriate if *that form* has two subforms.

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Keep in mind that it is generally inefficient to NOT use OIHID' date=' so you may want to steer him towards OIHID.[/quote']

Assuming that efficiency is the end goal of CharGen.

 

In the case of this character, Multiform would be called for if Virgil has abilities/skills/etc that he doesn't have as Brutus. In other words, the "classic Billy Batson" example.

 

So, for example, let's say that Virgil is a computer geek. He is significantly more intelligent than Brutus (INT 23 vs 13), and has about 20 points in various computer related skills (computer programming, etc... yadda yadda). Plus, he is a skateboarder, has some nifty gadgets (including a very powerful computer, which he has paid for).

 

Now, Brutus probably doesn't give a rip about any of that, and would know a computer keyboard from a skateboard. His skills are completely combat oriented. He likely also has a completely different set of psych/soc/phys lims.

 

This would argue a multiform, rather than OIHID.

 

If, instead, he just got stronger in the Brutus form, but had the same personality, etc., then we would be talking OIHID.

 

Anyways. Yeah' date=' the key point is that Multiform _creates TWO characters_, so OIHID is only appropriate if *that form* has two subforms.[/quote']

 

Definately agreed!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Assuming that efficiency is the end goal of CharGen.

Char Gen is a fine balance between Concept and Efficiency.

 

All that other stuff you said is correct too

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

In the case of this character' date=' Multiform would be called for if [i']Virgil[/i] has abilities/skills/etc that he doesn't have as Brutus. In other words, the "classic Billy Batson" example.

Not necessarily. You can also just put OIHID on the abilities Virgil has, and specify that the ID in which he has them is the Virgil ID, not the Brutus ID. If the difficulty of changing forms is really asymmetric; if the differences in the forms are really significant; if the changes are more fundamental than just some Powers/Skills/Characteristics; these are the times it really might be worth it to consider Multiform instead of OIHID. At least that's the way I look at it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

For example, if the two forms tracked damage differently, had different minds/memories, different idendifying features (fingerprints/DNA/), etc., Multiform sounds like the more accurate build regardless of anything else. Another deciding element is whether or not the two forms share identical Disadvantages. If one form would logically have massively different Disads (even if some are shared), Multiform might be the way to go.

[dstarfire]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Just to play devil's advocate:

 

OIHID is somewhat limiting even with the multiform construct you described. Even with the multi-form construction, Bruno could theoretically still pose as a 'normal', albeight unusually strong, person. If he were to do this, any powers with the OIHID limitation would not function, as a heroic identity is supposed to be pretty obvious, iirc.

 

Additionally, if there's no added time on the multi-power, he could change into his superpowered alter-ego as a zero phase action. 'getting into costume' (i.e. switching to heroic identity) takes is normally a full phase action.

 

Of course, most GM's I've seen only allow characters with the secret id disad to use the oihid limitation.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

OIHID is somewhat limiting even with the multiform construct you described. Even with the multi-form construction' date=' Bruno could theoretically still pose as a 'normal', albeight unusually strong, person. If he were to do this, any powers with the OIHID limitation would not function, as a heroic identity is supposed to be pretty obvious, iirc.[/quote']

Interesting, but I think that really the identities have to be somewhat defined. Otherwise, merely by looking like someone else you lose your powers? Hmm. So if I were to use Images on someone with OIHID powers I could make them immediately lose their powers? Darkness? The Disguise skill has a lockout with OIHID powers? How about if simply no one is looking at the character? I don't buy this approach. There has to be more than just appearence involved (at least in most cases; I'd say someone who really did rely on appearence would probably merit a larger Limitation and/or a Disadvantage to reflect the immense ease with which they will lose their powers). The Hulk with a tremendous overcoat on is still the Hulk, not Bruce Banner (let's not get into recent revisions, please ).

Additionally, if there's no added time on the multi-power, he could change into his superpowered alter-ego as a zero phase action. 'getting into costume' (i.e. switching to heroic identity) takes is normally a full phase action.

I get your point, though Multiform actually takes a Half Phase Action to change forms (5ER p. 212) and OIHID doesn't necessarily take a Full Phase: from 5er p. 302 (with emphasis added): "...the character must have some difficulty changing forms -- the change must take at least a Full Phase, if not longer (...) and/or there must be other difficulties or ways to prevent him from changing identities."

Of course, most GM's I've seen only allow characters with the secret id disad to use the oihid limitation.

There are cases when I would allow it. For example, a character might not spend the majority of time in his heroic identity even if people know all about his non-heroic identity. This could be the case for power armor characters, characters who's Secret Identities have been revealed but who still seek to try to live some semblence of a normal life, characters who undergo some kind of transformation and wouldn't want to spend all of their time in a powered-up form (e.g. Colossus from the X-Men, the Hulk, etc.--I know there are/may be Secret IDs involved there, but even if they were revealed I doubt the characters would abandon their mundane forms).

[McManus]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

In the case of this character' date=' Multiform would be called for if [i']Virgil[/i] has abilities/skills/etc that he doesn't have as Brutus. In other words, the "classic Billy Batson" example.

 

I don’t see how this is the “classic Billy Batson†example at all. Billy has no skills, knowledge, or abilities (except perhaps 1 lvl of Shrinking, Always on, Inherent) that Capt. Marvel doesn’t have. CM could write a news story as well or better than Billy (Wisdom of Solomon and all). What can Billy do that CM can’t (other than squeeze in to smaller places)? To me BB/CM is the classic OHID character.

 

Or is there something new that has been added or something I am missing?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

OIHID is somewhat limiting even with the multiform construct you described. Even with the multi-form construction, Bruno could theoretically still pose as a 'normal', albeight unusually strong, person. If he were to do this, any powers with the OIHID limitation would not function, as a heroic identity is supposed to be pretty obvious, iirc.

 

OIHID requires more than just "posing" as a normal. Anyone can just choose not to use their powers, but no one gets a discount/Limitation for "Sometimes Chooses Not To Use His Powers". The character must be unable to use his powers, meaning he has no choice whether or not he can use them; he just can't (until he changes identities).

[dstarfire]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Interesting' date=' but I think that really the identities have to be somewhat defined. Otherwise, merely by [i']looking[/i] like someone else you lose your powers? Hmm. So if I were to use Images on someone with OIHID powers I could make them immediately lose their powers? Darkness? The Disguise skill has a lockout with OIHID powers? How about if simply no one is looking at the character? I don't buy this approach. There has to be more than just appearence involved (at least in most cases; I'd say someone who really did rely on appearence would probably merit a larger Limitation and/or a Disadvantage to reflect the immense ease with which they will lose their powers). The Hulk with a tremendous overcoat on is still the Hulk, not Bruce Banner

 

Yes, there are ways to get around the obviousness of a heroic identity, but most all of them require the expenditure of additional points, or significant effort. Like the Gestures and Incantations limitations, a heroic identity should be fairly obvious and unusual. Sure you can disguise incantations by doing them in the middle of a shouting crowd, a sound-proofed room, etc. but most of the time it's still going to be fairly obvious. Take your example of the hulk in a trenchcoat a bit further: his face is still going to be green, he's still going to look like some sort of steroid experiment gone horribly wrong, he'll sound like barbarian. Even if he somehow conceals all that, any passers-by are going to be wondering why this guy's wearing a trenchcoat in the middle of summer, without an inch of skin showing and doesn't say a word to anybody. It's not their appearance that dictates the use of their powers, it's being able to use those powers that dictates their appearance.

 

On the other hand, for OIHID to be a valid limitation, there MUST be some other identity in which they spend a majority of the time. Otherwise it's not limiting in any way.

 

Anyways, it's your game, your call. I just wanted to point out some other aspects of the issue you may not have considered. Too often people fail to see both sides of the issue.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Death to munchkin magic!

 

He's not trying to make a character with two forms whose forms can also turn into a Hero ID. He's trying to double dip.

 

If he insists, just make his Brutus form OIHID worth nothing, after all, a disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't worth any points, right?

 

Munchkins...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiform and OIHID

 

Yes, there are ways to get around the obviousness of a heroic identity, but most all of them require the expenditure of additional points, or significant effort. Like the Gestures and Incantations limitations, a heroic identity should be fairly obvious and unusual. Sure you can disguise incantations by doing them in the middle of a shouting crowd, a sound-proofed room, etc. but most of the time it's still going to be fairly obvious. Take your example of the hulk in a trenchcoat a bit further: his face is still going to be green, he's still going to look like some sort of steroid experiment gone horribly wrong, he'll sound like barbarian. Even if he somehow conceals all that, any passers-by are going to be wondering why this guy's wearing a trenchcoat in the middle of summer, without an inch of skin showing and doesn't say a word to anybody. It's not their appearance that dictates the use of their powers, it's being able to use those powers that dictates their appearance.

 

On the other hand, for OIHID to be a valid limitation, there MUST be some other identity in which they spend a majority of the time. Otherwise it's not limiting in any way.

 

Anyways, it's your game, your call. I just wanted to point out some other aspects of the issue you may not have considered. Too often people fail to see both sides of the issue.

I don't think the two have to be linked either way. Heck, there might be a character with two identical-looking IDs. In one the character has access to some powers, in the other he does not. It cannot be trivial for him to switch between them (there has to be some catch); that is the key, not how he looks.

 

Now defining an ID as having a different appearence is fine. A mundane costume change, slipping into power armor, a Cosmetic Transform, (easily concealable) Distincitve Features that only show up in one ID, visible powers who's Special Effects make one ID look different when the powers are active, etc. All of those can make one identity look different from the other, but I see no rule stating it has to be that way.