Whirlwind Attack!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Actually, I'm starting to think this is overpowered. You could walk up to any single target and whack 'em against a DCV 3. I might throw in non-selective. So, it's like this:

 

Whirlwind Attack: Hole In The Middle (+1/4), Area Of Effect Nonselective (up to 2" radius; +1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of HKA (22 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), OIF (Weapon of opportunity; -1/2), All adjacent hexes must contain no obstacles (-1/2), Only with two-handed weapons (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7, END Cost: 6)

 

Not bad at all. Thanks guys.

Yep. Looks pretty good.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Also, costing fewer points is hardly a meaningful measurement any way. The cost of an ability shoud be appropriate to its general effectiveness or else a point based system is meaningless.

 

If your measurement of the worth of an ability boils down to which one costs less you kind of miss the point.

 

 

In fact, its exactly this sort of response that leads me to post on these forums less and less with each passing month.

Both approaches are valid. Whether either might be allowed in any particular campaign is going to depend on a lot of things; how equipment (both mundane and magical), spellcasting, and other abilities are bought, for example. The utility is going to be reflected in the total cost of the attack, which includes either a full power construct (in your approach), or the full weapon + Naked Advantage build (in his). Whether or not that first 'weapon' part is free to begin with, or still free when applying the Advantage, is going to be heavily campaign-/GM-dependent. Actually a construct + Naked Advantage is always going to be at least as expensive (if not more so) in terms of total points than the construct with the Advantage built in; it's just the Naked Advantage can freely be switched between many initial constructs, which is kind of like a limited VPP, I suppose.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Both approaches are valid. Whether either might be allowed in any particular campaign is going to depend on a lot of things; how equipment (both mundane and magical)' date=' spellcasting, and other abilities are bought, for example. The utility is going to be reflected in the [i']total[/i] cost of the attack, which includes either a full power construct (in your approach), or the full weapon + Naked Advantage build (in his). Whether or not that first 'weapon' part is free to begin with, or still free when applying the Advantage, is going to be heavily campaign-/GM-dependent. Actually a construct + Naked Advantage is always going to be at least as expensive (if not more so) in terms of total points than the construct with the Advantage built in; it's just the Naked Advantage can freely be switched between many initial constructs, which is kind of like a limited VPP, I suppose.

Thanks for explaining the obvious.

 

No one is questioning the validity or the legality of using NPA's in this fashion. The point is not all GM's consider the point efficiency to be fair, balanced, and/or acceptable in environments where a character is applying them to Equipment for which they paid no points.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Thanks for explaining the obvious.

 

No one is questioning the validity or the legality of using NPA's in this fashion. The point is not all GM's consider the point efficiency to be fair, balanced, and/or acceptable in environments where a character is applying them to Equipment for which they paid no points.

Hey, no problem. Master of the obvious. Ha!

 

I just thought I'd try to keep a little perspective in there where it seemed people were getting a little touchy. I was also trying to point out that there might commonly be other game constructs where the character gets a lot for few actual spent Character Points. Exotic weapos are a common one. Magical equipment acquired through adventuring (which some GMs don't require to be bought with points) is another. Spellcasting can be in some games.

 

No real context in this sense was provided for the game in which this, "Whirlwind Attack," is to be used, so who knows whether the, "mine costs fewer points," thing is a valid concern in this case? I don't really think he was trying to say, "I can do it more efficiently than you! Nah, nah, nah, nah nah!" or anything. He even threw in a wink when he said it.

 

I personally really appreciate all the conversions and original content you provide. It is obviously all well thought-out and an excellent resource. It also gives you a great background for being able to give good advice and feedback when someone wants it. I liked the Area of Effect: Any Area part you had in there in this case. I am sure that the original poster appreciates the input too, even if he isn't choosing to use it, and even if it hadsn't been made extremely obvious.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Also, costing fewer points is hardly a meaningful measurement any way. The cost of an ability shoud be appropriate to its general effectiveness or else a point based system is meaningless.

 

If your measurement of the worth of an ability boils down to which one costs less you kind of miss the point.

 

 

In fact, its exactly this sort of response that leads me to post on these forums less and less with each passing month.

 

Whew, I take a night off to actually run a game and I see tons of responses! I did not mean to say anything like "MINE IS CHEAPER SO I OWNZ JOO NOOB!!111!". I'm just saying that if you compare a 33-point whirlwind attack to a 12-point "4 attack Sweep with no OCV penalty", it's a clear choice to take the Sweep maneuver, regardless of the DCV penalty and requiring a Full Phase (things you can negate with Rapid Attack and CSLs with DCV).

 

I want my players to look at the two Talents and really consider both options. I'm quite certain that my 150 point characters will glaze over any Talent costing 33 points without a second thought. The power build on your site DOES have some advantages over mine, namely that they strike against a DCV 3 and there's no "Can't be any obstacles in the way" disadvantage or x3 END cost. I've purposely used Nonselective to simulate a full force swing in a complete circle that people can dodge or twist around.

 

Practically speaking, the whirlwind attack isn't really all that great. To be very useful, the fighter would have to get close to a large group of mooks, hold his action, and hope they swarm him and perfectly surround him for full effect. But, in these rare cases, he will definitely shine over "Sweep Guy" and add some flavor to the game.

[Lethosos]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Since I have HeroDesigner up... I'll just drop this in here. It can stand to be improved, but the idea was stolen from Samurai Legend Musashi--it's for a FH pirate-styled character with an enchanted sword.

7     [b][i]Monarch's Own[/i][/b]: Multipower, 30-point reserve,  (30 Active Points); Only Useable by Attuned User-- Power does not work in Ubiquitous Circumstances (-2), OAF (-1), Gestures (-1/4) - END=
1u     1)  [b][i]Falchion Damage[/i][/b]: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2 1/2d6 (13 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) - END=1
1u     2)  [b][i]Maelstrom[/i][/b]: Hand-To-Hand Attack +3d6, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Difficult To Dispel (x2 Active Points; +1/4), Explosion (-1 DC/2"; +3/4), Nonselective Target (-1/4) (30 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2) - END=[1 rc]

 

I was planning on tightning it up, though--some spots don't make a lot of sense now, but that may be a quirk of HD2...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Since I have HeroDesigner up... I'll just drop this in here. It can stand to be improved, but the idea was stolen from Samurai Legend Musashi--it's for a FH pirate-styled character with an enchanted sword.

7     [b][i]Monarch's Own[/i][/b]: Multipower, 30-point reserve,  (30 Active Points); Only Useable by Attuned User-- Power does not work in Ubiquitous Circumstances (-2), OAF (-1), Gestures (-1/4) - END=
1u     1)  [b][i]Falchion Damage[/i][/b]: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2 1/2d6 (13 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) - END=1
1u     2)  [b][i]Maelstrom[/i][/b]: Hand-To-Hand Attack +3d6, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Difficult To Dispel (x2 Active Points; +1/4), Explosion (-1 DC/2"; +3/4), Nonselective Target (-1/4) (30 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2) - END=[1 rc]

 

I was planning on tightning it up, though--some spots don't make a lot of sense now, but that may be a quirk of HD2...

 

Well, if you're looking for feedback...

 

I don't get building bladed weapons as Hand to Hand Attacks, but that may be a campaign style thing (or perhaps y'all use the "Killing attacks are build like Normal Attacks with a +/- 0 Modifier" Houserule) so its not a flaw in the write up, per se.

The other hazard of doing the weapon as a HtH Attack is that in a heroic level game you'll max the single attack out at 5d6 normal, and the explosion at 6d6... so a burly badguy with Human max PD will more often than not mostly shrug off the attack, doubly so if he's wearing any armor.

 

The -2 Only usable by Attuned User is pretty radically against the core rules... once again, not factoring in house rules... but in most games you submitted this to you'd be tarred and feathered for taking a -2 limit for something that is a -0 modifier to Focus... You've basically defined the weapon as a Personal Focus (rather than a Universal one) And taken a huge point break for it.

 

Bear in mind also that most of the time attack actions aren't considered discrete gestures. to make the Gestures limitation work you'd need to do something not related to attacking that is discrete and seperate in order to qualify... like a fancy weapon flourish that traces a mystical pattern in the air.