Whirlwind Attack!

[Erkenfresh]

Hi! I was thinking about how to model a "whirlwind attack" in HERO. Basically, you strike everyone within sword length of you simultaneously in a spectacular spinning arc! One obvious way is to buy +OCV with Sweep and just sweep em. That's kind of boring though. I decided to think about a naked advantage, but then I find it's way overpriced and it brings up some questions.

 

Whirlwind Attack: Naked Modifier: Area Of Effect (up to 6" Any Area; +1 1/4) for up to 30 Active Points (37 Active Points)

 

This would suffice for up to 2d6 HKA or 6d6 HA. But, can anyone help me with this?

1. Does the naked modifier need to account for STR? So, would a 2d6 sword with an extra 1/2d6 from STR work with this NPA?

2. Can I apply limitations to the NPA such as OIF (weapon of choice), increased endurance cost and so on? Cause, 37 points makes it really stupid for anyone to buy. Like this maybe:

 

Whirlwind Attack: Naked Modifier: Area Of Effect (up to 6" Any Area; +1 1/4) for up to 30 Active Points (37 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), OIF (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) (Real cost: 13)

 

Other suggestions?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Argh. One of my PCs has this - it's an AOE Selective with an OIF (Chain weapon) that's built as an NPA up to 2d6 HKA, so yes, you've got the gist of it. He's in Mexico, or I'd ask him directly. You could, then, stack +OCV (Only for Whirlwind Attack) on top of it, to make striking with it simpler. He also has Personal Immunity & Selective slapped on it, with a total range of 2" outwards.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

A suggestion...

You'll save a bunch of points making the attack AOE:One Hex, with the +1/4 area doubler. This gives you a good "effects every hex around me" attack without the huge cost of a reasonable sized Any Area AOE. I've always required this style of attack in my FH game to take EITHER Non Selective (for the classic whirlwind style attack) or Selective (more a swordmasters trick).

Remember that if you're not using Selective or Any Area you need to add Personal Immunity or Hole in the middle to avoid hitting yourself as well.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

I think his build uses that; I know that when we looked at it going past 2" I said "no way, you're hitting the length of the chain, that no worky!" and we got it to a point it made sense.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

You'll save a bunch of points making the attack AOE:One Hex' date=' with the +1/4 area doubler.[/quote']You'll save even more by going the boringly obvious route of just buying levels with Sweep.

 

Why re-invent the wheel?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

You'll save even more by going the boringly obvious route of just buying levels with Sweep.

 

Why re-invent the wheel?

The few instances of this kind of Talent/Feat that have shown up in my FH games have usually been on characters who ALSO are quite good with sweeps.

 

there as some subtle mechanical differences, the biggest of which is the AOE attack doesn't auto miss everyone if your dice curse you on the first attack.

You also don't have to take a full phase and go to 1/2 DCv unless you build it that way.

 

This avoids the situation as follows...

My heroic barbarian charges into the vanguard of the advancing orcs, mighty muscles bulging as he lays about to the left and right with great broad strokes of his axe.

Oh... wait... You rolled a 17?

OK the Barbarian charges into the midst of the foe, lays about with his axe, utterly fails to harm anything, and gets wolfpacked by the orcs. Let see.., multiple attacker bonus for 6 Orcs... you are at 1/2 DCV from the sweep. Can't abort. No armor, except your bearskin loincloth....

 

*sounds of lots of dice rolling*

Right then, you take 27 body. 97 stun. And are Impaired in your Chest, Head and left Leg.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

You'll save even more by going the boringly obvious route of just buying levels with Sweep.

 

Why re-invent the wheel?

 

Because having it as a named power construct is just *cooler*.

 

Besides, this only takes an Attack action and doesn't drop your DCV to half for Sweeping.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Yep, I'd like it as a seperate ability for the reasons mentioned. I think it gives a little extra flavor for a fighter. But, my questions above still remained unanswered. Good suggestions on ways to make it cheaper though.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Yep' date=' I'd like it as a seperate ability for the reasons mentioned. I think it gives a little extra flavor for a fighter. But, my questions above still remained unanswered. Good suggestions on ways to make it cheaper though.[/quote']

 

Heh. Sorry. Typical of us, in many ways ... start haggling over the points and pros and cons and actually skip the details.

 

1. Good question, as I'll admit my knowledge of NPAs is a little weak; however, I would assume that the NPA would be the amount of damage that gets the Advantage. If you do 2d6 KA damage, that's it, even if your STR could make it higher.

 

2. Can't see why not.

[Curufea]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

I have some more suggestions to reduce cost-

Only in unconfined spaces (-1/2) because you need room to swing.

Charges - if you can only do it a certain number of times a day, either that or possibly increased endurance cost to represent how many more swings of the weapon you are doing.

Restrainable.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

You can certainly place Limitations like Focus and Increased End Cost on the Naked Advantage.

 

I don't think you do have to account for Str, no. It's just as if it were an Advantage for the HKA, and if the HKA had an Area of Effect Advantage, you'd still be able to add Str to it. However, I believe that unlike the normal heroic equipment rules where the effect of Str is not reduced by an Advantage (in the standard rules anyway), I think the GM would be quite justified in reducing the Str damage in accordance with the Naked Advantage (and as long as you are using it, possibly any other damage-related Advantages on the weapon as well).

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

OK, I think I've got it:

 

Whirlwind Attack: Hole In The Middle (+1/4), Area Of Effect (up to 2" radius or reach of weapon whichever is less; +3/4) for up to 30 Active Points of HKA (30 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), OIF (Weapon of opportunity; -1/2), All adjacent hexes must contain no obstacles (-1/2), Only with two-handed weapons (-1/4) (Real Cost: 9, END Cost: 9)

 

That's actually comparable to the +6 OCV to Sweep for 12 points talent I also created (thanks to Killer Shrike). With Sweep, you drop to 1/2 DCV but you can hit the same guy many times. With whirlwind, you can attack against a DCV of 3 but only once for each person next to you (including allies!). Also, it would be especially nasty with a weapon with reach. I suppose an alternative is to add Selective too. But then you'd attack against their full DCV.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Actually, I'm starting to think this is overpowered. You could walk up to any single target and whack 'em against a DCV 3. I might throw in non-selective. So, it's like this:

 

Whirlwind Attack: Hole In The Middle (+1/4), Area Of Effect Nonselective (up to 2" radius; +1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of HKA (22 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), OIF (Weapon of opportunity; -1/2), All adjacent hexes must contain no obstacles (-1/2), Only with two-handed weapons (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7, END Cost: 6)

 

Not bad at all. Thanks guys.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Class3e/Fighters.shtml

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Class3e/Fighters.shtml

 

Yours costs 33 points though. Mine is only 7 points.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Actually, I'm starting to think this is overpowered. You could walk up to any single target and whack 'em against a DCV 3. I might throw in non-selective. So, it's like this:

 

Whirlwind Attack: Hole In The Middle (+1/4), Area Of Effect Nonselective (up to 2" radius; +1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of HKA (22 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), OIF (Weapon of opportunity; -1/2), All adjacent hexes must contain no obstacles (-1/2), Only with two-handed weapons (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7, END Cost: 6)

 

Not bad at all. Thanks guys.

Looks Damn close to what I came up with for my game.

Works like a charm.

Have fun wit' it!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Yours costs 33 points though. Mine is only 7 points.

Yours is also just an NPA and not a full Power which not all GM's would be ok with.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Yours costs 33 points though. Mine is only 7 points.

Also, costing fewer points is hardly a meaningful measurement any way. The cost of an ability shoud be appropriate to its general effectiveness or else a point based system is meaningless.

 

If your measurement of the worth of an ability boils down to which one costs less you kind of miss the point.

 

 

In fact, its exactly this sort of response that leads me to post on these forums less and less with each passing month.

[Markdoc]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Yours is also just an NPA and not a full Power which not all GM's would be ok with.

 

Indeed - we've got a character with a whirlwind attack like this in my current game, but he bought it as a full power (which I allow - encourage even).

 

Naked power advantages have their uses, but adding them to free equipment is not, in my opinion one of them.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Also' date=' costing fewer points is hardly a meaningful measurement any way. The cost of an ability shoud be appropriate to its general effectiveness or else a point based system is meaningless. [/quote']

 

To me, it's comparable point costs that are critical. If the game allows NPA's in general, this one in particular seems not to be especially abusive. I'd be more inclined to allow it in a game which uses long term END so that 6 END cost becomes quite meaningful.

 

However, I think broad use of NPA's will significantly raise the power level of the game (DUH! - reduces cost by about 80% over a full power like KS's). And if the warriors can buy NPA's for their free equipment, the mages should be allowed to buy NPA's for their spells, which will boost their power.

 

I would also remember the "sauce for the goose" proviso. If you can buy this for your PC, that 7 points seems like a no brainer for a major opponent who fights hand to hand. That way, he can attack all the PC's in HTH range on each of his phases, not just one of you at a atime, with his 2d6 HKA, pumped to 4d6 with STR and levels. Is the group OK with that kind of opposition? Sometimes, the best test of fair pricing and reasonable power levels is to use it against the players - it's amazing how something the group first thought was perfectly reasonable turns out to be hideously unfair when it's used against them .

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Also, costing fewer points is hardly a meaningful measurement any way. The cost of an ability shoud be appropriate to its general effectiveness or else a point based system is meaningless.

 

If your measurement of the worth of an ability boils down to which one costs less you kind of miss the point.

 

 

In fact, its exactly this sort of response that leads me to post on these forums less and less with each passing month.

And some of us have missed your input...

I've found myself pimping your work and your site twice (or was it 3 times?) in the last day.

I do think that point values have relevance, but by the same token... I like complex builds and diverse characters (one of the reasons I run my FH games at 250 points). As most Heroic FH games will be 150 points, dropping a build that costs some 30 odd points onto a character will strip off a LOT of character, and thus will make this the characters primary shtick, and see it being used a LOT.

Heck, even the page you linked to has Naked Advantage builds for some tricky moves... and like those builds of yours, I'd probably be more inclined to up the base power of the above Whirlwind attack to 4d6 to cover the possibility of added damage from whatever source, because right now as it stands it caps at fairly average damage levels for most fantasy campaigns. Which in and of itself is also OK... It promotes NOT using this as a sole or dominant attack form (Ok...I can drop all my levels into damage and do a offensive strike with my greatsword and do 3d6+1, or I can whirlwind for 2d6... decisions, decisions)

For my tuppence, I'll probably stick with using NPA's to model Combat Talents, because I like to see them fall into the same price range as most Spells and pre-existing Combat Skills like Two Weapon Fighting or Rapid attack... the 5 to 10 point range. Enough of an investment to make it a serious dedication of points, but not an overwhelming amount crippling the characters ability to add aditional options.

And in sheerly pratical terms...

There are only 6 adjacent hexes. Assuming in 95% of cases you'll only have a max of one opponent per hex, I figure this has less utility than +10 with Sweep, and thus should cost less... especially as its written up as nonselective. This is the Skaven Plague Censer bearer version of the attack... don't get too close. I'd aim to make a build with Selective on it come out to just a bit under the cost of the sweep levels (after all, sweep does allow more utility, in multiple attacks against a lone foe). The advantage of it being a 1/2 phase and keeping your full DCV is (roughly) counterbalanced by the extra END cost

(1/2 DCV concentrate -1/2 + Extra Time:Full Phase -1/2, versus x3 END cost -1).

In any case... your decreased presence has been noticed, and lamented by at least one person.

 

EDIT: D'Oh! I was thinking about sweeping against 6 opponents, so I went in and modified that from +6 w/ Sweep to +10

[swobeas]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

In my last FH campaign a fighter had an whirlwind-attack that was build as a seperate power:

 

 

2d6 HKA; area of effect own hex + adjactend hexes, selective, OAF sword, must roll against normal DCV, no STR bonus, must roll each attack seperately, charges (yes he was a D&D player ), -2 to his OCV and DCV.

Excuse me for leaving out the numbers, I don't have my book here at work

 

The rational to limit the damage to 2d6 killing, was on the one hand game balance and on the other hand logic, as I don't think (having a little bit of martial art experience) that if you make a lot of attacks, these are as powerful as one single attack.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

A suggestion...

You'll save a bunch of points making the attack AOE:One Hex, with the +1/4 area doubler. This gives you a good "effects every hex around me" attack without the huge cost of a reasonable sized Any Area AOE. I've always required this style of attack in my FH game to take EITHER Non Selective (for the classic whirlwind style attack) or Selective (more a swordmasters trick).

Remember that if you're not using Selective or Any Area you need to add Personal Immunity or Hole in the middle to avoid hitting yourself as well.

Yeah, that's how Josh and I built my character's Fury Whirl attack. AoE, 2", Selective, Requires a Skill Roll. There's more to it than that, but that's all I have off the top of my head.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

And some of us have missed your input...

I've found myself pimping your work and your site twice (or was it 3 times?) in the last day.

Thanks; I had noticed

 

I do think that point values have relevance, but by the same token... I like complex builds and diverse characters (one of the reasons I run my FH games at 250 points). As most Heroic FH games will be 150 points, dropping a build that costs some 30 odd points onto a character will strip off a LOT of character, and thus will make this the characters primary shtick, and see it being used a LOT.

True, but the counter argument is that the ability to attack so many opponents should be a signature ability for a warrior in most fantasy campaigns.

 

Heck, even the page you linked to has Naked Advantage builds for some tricky moves[

 

True, but it does have the proviso:

 

"Alternately, with GM Permission, you can avoid the upfront cost of the Power and simply buy Advantages as Naked Power Advantages. A Fighter that could apply Armor Piercing, Autofire x3, or Penetrating to their attacks would be deadly indeed. This approach is much cheaper, and some GM's might restrict it as part of an ongoing effort to counter power scaling."

 

Which is my way of saying "This is technically legal and is provided for completionary purposes, but most GM's probably wont allow it and even those that do should keep an eye on it."

 

 

 

For my tuppence, I'll probably stick with using NPA's to model Combat Talents, because I like to see them fall into the same price range as most Spells and pre-existing Combat Skills like Two Weapon Fighting or Rapid attack... the 5 to 10 point range. Enough of an investment to make it a serious dedication of points, but not an overwhelming amount crippling the characters ability to add aditional options.

I generally don't allow the NPA option for attacks in my own Fantasy HERO campaign, and its fairly high powered -- the PC's are currently in the 225 point range. However if a player had a particular concept that made sense and had a cost in line with its utility I would consider it.

 

I don't have a problem with NPA's in general and use them in other ways. For instance I did make a Magic System based around NPA's five or six months ago that is pretty interesting, but it has enough cost inhibitors built into it:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Metruvius.shtml

 

As a general rule of thumb however, custom Magic Systems aside, I use NPA's when nothing else will do the job and not just to save points. Applying NPA's to base powers in free equipment is not something Im generally comfortable with for mainstream use.

[Rapier]

Re: Whirlwind Attack!

 

Also, costing fewer points is hardly a meaningful measurement any way. The cost of an ability shoud be appropriate to its general effectiveness or else a point based system is meaningless.

 

If your measurement of the worth of an ability boils down to which one costs less you kind of miss the point.

 

I have to say I agree whole-heartedly. Point total should never be the deciding factor. The utility is what is important. I've got a couple NPAs in my campaigns.

 

If a character came to me with a single power with no advantages (say, EB or RKA) and then had a half dozen or so NPAs I'd look pretty askance at it. I've also thrown out an NPA MultiPower.

 

NPAs definately need a Stop Sign. But I love their utility. It fills a real niche that had been missing. We had been working around it for years with partially limited powers, which can be bookkeeping headaches. NPAs, when used with some oversight and forethought, add a great deal of flexibility and allow some unique power constructs (especially with the advent of MegaScale).

 

In fact' date=' its exactly this sort of response that leads me to post on these forums less and less with each passing month.[/quote']

 

*HUG*