Replacing the AP Advantage

[Fitz]

I don't like the way the Armour Piercing advantage works, so I've decided to replace it with one based on the old Piercing advantage (from Champions II, I think).

 

Rather than buying an advantage that simply halves the target's defences, you buy levels of Armour Piercing as an Adder -- effectively, extra Normal attack dice that have no damaging effect on the target, and are used solely to bypass either ED or PD (defined when the power is built).

 

I'm in the process of costing them out based on EB (0 END, Only to penetrate defences, and possibly No Range), and what I'm wondering is what sort of limitation value "Only to penetrate defences" would be worth? At the moment I've gone with -1, but I'm wondering if it should be more considering that what I'm building here are damage dice that do no damage.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

For the record, Piercing is in 5E. You can find it in Dark Champions. Can't remember the cost structure off hand though.

[Edsel]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

The Piercing otpional rule, and discussion, takes up most of page 96 of Dark Champions. Our group had been using since way back when as well. The new piercing rules are basically the same as the older version. Piercing is essentially an Adder; The cost is 2 points per point of normal defense bypassed and 3 points per point of resistant defenses bypassed (or mental, power or flash defense). Any level of hardening stops piercing.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

2 points per point of defense bypassed? So you could buy 1d6 of EB for 5 points or 2.5 piercing for 5 points. That seems odd to me since more dice of EB would be more useful right?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

2 points per point of defense bypassed? So you could buy 1d6 of EB for 5 points or 2.5 piercing for 5 points. That seems odd to me since more dice of EB would be more useful right?

 

If we're only counting STUN, you would be correct, but reducing Defense also reduces it for BOD. Piercing is considerably more useful for killing a target than KO'ing him. Let's compare some constructs against Joe Agent. Joe has 4 PD/ED and 8/8 Armor.

 

A 12d6 EB will average 42 STUN and 12 BOD. Joe will take 30 STUN and 0 BOD.

 

A 6d6 EB with 10 points' resistant Piercing will average 21 STUN and 6 BOD, against 2 PD and 2 ED. Joe will only take 19 STUN, but he will take 4 BOD. [This could be 15 points' normal piercing, but Joe's armor would save him then.]

 

Against higher levels of defenses, more EB will be superior, since we're unlikely to reduce a 30 DEF Brick's defenses to a level where he takes BOD. But if he has, say, 15 rDEF, and we choose between a 4d6 KA and a 2d6 KA w/ 10 Resistant piercing, we'll average 0 BOD inflicted with the 4d6 KA, and 2 BOD with the Piercing one.

[Edsel]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

In our games we find that piercing gives us more precise control on how to model real world effects.

 

For example If I have a 9mm pistol (2d6+1 RKA) and I load it with Armor Piercing ammo, then the standard rules (from Dark Champions) would make that gun now do 1d6 RKA AP. But this means that any DEF I shoot at will be cut in half regardless of how much it is. If I model the round by buying 2 or 3 points of resistant piercing it is IMO more realistic.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

Anyone have the Combat Handbook handy? Did Piercing make it into that book?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

Anyone have the Combat Handbook handy? Did Piercing make it into that book?

It's only in Dark Champions.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

Ah, well. I guess I should mention that Piercing is also described and costed in Steve's "Heroglyphs" column in Digital Hero #13, along with optional variants on Armor Piercing. Not described to the same degree as in DC, but essentially the same.

[Armitage]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

I use a variant rule that was described in an old issue of Adventurer's Club.

Armor Piercing reduces the target's defenses by 1 per DC of the attack. Buying AP multiple times causes multiple reductions and part of an attack can be AP as well.

2d6 Killing Attack, Armor Piercing. Target has -6 Defenses.

2d6 Killing Attack, Armor Piercing x2. Target has -12 Defenses.

2d6 Killing Attack, 1d6 bought Armor Piercing. Target has -3 Defenses.

 

Hardened Defenses negate Armor Piercing equal to their PD/ED per level of Hardening.

15 PD/ED, 5 Hardened would provide 14 vs. the first attack, 8 vs. the second and 15 vs. the third.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

 

I use a variant rule that was described in an old issue of Adventurer's Club.

Armor Piercing reduces the target's defenses by 1 per DC of the attack. Buying AP multiple times causes multiple reductions and part of an attack can be AP as well.

2d6 Killing Attack, Armor Piercing. Target has -6 Defenses.

 

Or buy 3d6 KA and average 3 BOD and 9.345 STUN more on targets, hardened defenses or not.

 

 

2d6 Killing Attack' date=' Armor Piercing x2. Target has -12 Defenses.[/quote']

 

Or buy 4d6 KA and average 7 BOD and 18.69 STUN more.

 

Seems very similar to Piercing, both in effectively becoming a fixed cost per 1 DEF bypassed and in facilitating BOD damage more than STUN damage. It woud be just as easy to say "reduce defense by 2 for 5 CP". That's the math to all your examples.

[Armitage]

Re: Replacing the AP Advantage

 

Or buy 3d6 KA and average 3 BOD and 9.345 STUN more on targets, hardened defenses or not.

 

Or buy 4d6 KA and average 7 BOD and 18.69 STUN more.

 

Although Killing Attacks with this variant tend to do more BODY than straight attacks when the defenses are about equal to the damage. The STUN ends up less though.

 

2d6 KA, AP (7 BODY, 19 STUN, -6 DEF)

3d6 KA (11 BODY, 29 STUN)

Against 8 DEF, the AP KA would do 5 BODY and 17 STUN. The standard KA would do 3 BODY and 21 STUN.

 

2d6 KA, APx2 (7 BODY, 19 STUN, -12 DEF)

4d6 KA (14 BODY, 37 STUN)

Against 12 DEF, the AP KA would do 7 BODY and 19 STUN. The standard KA would do 2 BODY and 25 STUN.