2 for 1 pt STR - Question

[Lucius]

2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Keep the anecdotal evidence coming, guys. I have a couple other questions I'll bring in later, but for now I'm just taking it all in and synthesizing it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Pedant on a palindromedary

[casualplayer]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Strictly speaking I didn't double the cost of STR in my games, but I always use Normal Characteristic Maxima with the STR threshold set at 15. All genres. Yes, even supers. If you want to be an unenhanced, unmodified human you have to take NCM in my games. Otherwise you are non-human and have to have some Phys Lim to represent the specific weaknesses and detectabilities entailed.

[Lucius]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Can I get back to you in about a month? The game that were are trying that in (a 150pt FH game) should start next week...

 

Please do.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

> NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the

> National Security Agency may have read this email

> without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do

> this without any judicial or legislative oversight.

> Don't even ask what the palindromedary says to that.

[Alibear]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I'm running a fantasy campaign where all characters are mages of one type or another. Str costs 2 for 1. One lad is playing a paladin type and he has 13 or 15 str, I can't remember which off hand. The rest are 8 or 10 str but one has extra str dedicated to using bows.

 

It is working well. I wouldn't use it for a Supers campaign. If I did I wouldn't worry about Grond as NPC's have the stats that I want not worrying too much about points.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Sorry Lucius, annoyingly enough, that game still hasn't kicked off...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

It is working well. I wouldn't use it for a Supers campaign. If I did I wouldn't worry about Grond as NPC's have the stats that I want not worrying too much about points.

 

I'm never a big fan of telling the players "you can't do it, but NPC's can". If STR is 2:1, letting Grond keep his extra STR either means he's much more powerful (essentially, a free 80 xp for Grond) or that the 2:1 cost is too expensive.

 

I like Grond now because his 90 STR sets a nice "top end" for STR. 18d6 is half again what a typical PC will do for damage. Change STR to 2:1, and Grond should theoretically be equally impressive at STR 50 (same point investment). I don't think that criteria is met.

 

I do agree there's a differentiation between Heroic and Superheroic, however. Grond's STR doesn't allow him to use weapons with a 45 STR minimum and add 9 DC!

[Alibear]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Grond is a stand alone threat, he should be tough enough to take on the whole team. To this end he needs more points than the PC's. If I need to give him and extra 100 or 200 it doesn't really matter. He will be as tough as needed. I don't even worry about points totals for NPC's when I GM.

 

The players need to worry about points totals not GM's. And guess what NPC's can get away with things that PC's can't if that is what the plot calls for.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

The biggest problem I would have with 2:1 STR in a supers game is if you are using point caps.

 

Assuming a 60 AP cap, you are looking at a max STR for the team brick of 40 or so. This means the brick does 8d6 base damage. I can deal with the damage though, since I can always buy +4d6 HA.

 

What I would NOT be able to deal with is that you are then looking at the team Brick having less lifting capacity then Spiderman.

 

I can make a reasonable simulation of the Thing, Colossus or the Hulk at a 60 AP cap with STR at 1:1. A 100-400 ton lifting capacity lets me do things that those characters do in comics all the time. 6400 kg liftig capacity does not.

 

As I said, this is really only a gripe for supers and then mainly if it is accompanied by point caps.

[Alibear]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

The problem in fantasy is that Str is normally how you decide how much damage you do so everyone buys it up so they can wield big axes and swords and wear lots of armour.

 

In a supers campaign anything goes and str is not nearly as important.

 

I would leave supers alone.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

The problem in fantasy is that Str is normally how you decide how much damage you do so everyone buys it up so they can wield big axes and swords and wear lots of armour.

 

In a supers campaign anything goes and str is not nearly as important.

 

I would leave supers alone.

 

This is an issue for way more than the cost of STR. It comes down to a tradeoff between a universal system, and separate standalone games. We could change costs based on Heroic v Superheroic, or have customized costs for every genre, or even every gameworld within a genre, and have separate games.

 

The problem in Fantasy is that PLAYERS buy STR that doesn't fit their character concept. My 8 STR Bard/Mage does just fine. He could buy 15 STR for 7 points. But he could also enhance his magic repertoire, which is where the character is focused.

[Alibear]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

This is an issue for way more than the cost of STR. It comes down to a tradeoff between a universal system, and separate standalone games. We could change costs based on Heroic v Superheroic, or have customized costs for every genre, or even every gameworld within a genre, and have separate games.

 

The problem in Fantasy is that PLAYERS buy STR that doesn't fit their character concept. My 8 STR Bard/Mage does just fine. He could buy 15 STR for 7 points. But he could also enhance his magic repertoire, which is where the character is focused.

 

 

This is indeed the rub but some players will tweek thier concept to include lots of Str. So this is a problem with players and not the system.

[sbarron]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

This is indeed the rub but some players will tweek thier concept to include lots of Str. So this is a problem with players and not the system.

Well, I think the system has some responsibility. The fact that buying 3 pts of STR gets you +1 REC, +2 Stun, +1 PD, +1/2" of leaping, +1/2d6 HTH damage, can lift 50% more, and can use bigger weapons without penalties is part of the problem. Those 3 pts are a small investment with a big return, and hard to pass up for players interested in getting bang for their buck. 2 for 1 mitigates this to some extent.

 

But this discussion is all about scale and the game you are playing. Do want a game where PC mages have a lower STR than the city guards? Then charge 2-for-1 for STR, or just give the city guards a higher STR, or both. Is it ok for weaker PCs to be as strong as the city guard? Then just let the weaker PC buy some STR, and let the stronger PCs buy more. How remarkable your PCs are is totally up to the GM...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Well' date=' I think the system has some responsibility. The fact that buying 3 pts of STR gets you +1 REC, +2 Stun, +1 PD, +1/2" of leaping, +1/2d6 HTH damage, can lift 50% more, and can use bigger weapons without penalties is part of the problem. Those 3 pts are a small investment with a big return, and hard to pass up for players interested in getting bang for their buck. 2 for 1 mitigates this to some extent.[/quote']

 

If it is a system problem, it should apply system-wide. Changing the cost to 2:1 system wide will make STR far too costly for some genres, most notably Supers, but also any genre where high STR tends to be as much about flavour as utility. For example, how much use is Chewbacca's exceptional STR in a genre where most battles are fought with ranged weaponry operated on a point & click interface? Is that extra STR worth the points at 2:1 in a modern game where most battles are gun battles, or a psionics-focused game where combat generally occurs on the mindscape?

 

STR gives a great bang for the buck where weapons cost no CP, STR minima are important and much or most combat is in HTH. I don't consider that a big enough subset to justify changing the system.

 

But this discussion is all about scale and the game you are playing. Do want a game where PC mages have a lower STR than the city guards? Then charge 2-for-1 for STR' date=' or just give the city guards a higher STR, or both. Is it ok for weaker PCs to be as strong as the city guard? Then just let the weaker PC buy some STR, and let the stronger PCs buy more. How remarkable your PCs are is totally up to the GM...[/quote']

 

Scale is key. If my players have a range of STR from 15 - 25, it's not reasonable to give the town blacksmith a 13, or the circus strongman an 18, is it?

[sbarron]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

STR gives a great bang for the buck where weapons cost no CP' date=' STR minima are important and much or most combat is in HTH. I don't consider that a big enough subset to justify changing the system.[/quote']STR gives good bang for your buck in all games. The number of points "gained" from figured stats alone makes every point of STR worth more than 1 pt. You get what...6 pts of figured CHAR out of the first 5 pts spent on STR? So, you spend 5 points and get 11 pts worth of stats. Even worse, for the first 3 pts spent on STR, players get 8 pts worth of stats, or an additional 5 pts for your 3 spent.

 

But I'm not suggesting the system needs changed. Just that it's not the players fault that some character points are worth more than others. The system is set up that way, for right or wrong. Characters looking to optimize their character will almost always look to up their STR a bit. The return on the investment is too good to pass up.

 

Scale is key. If my players have a range of STR from 15 - 25' date=' it's not reasonable to give the town blacksmith a 13, or the circus strongman an 18, is it? [/quote'] I don't know. It's your game, so you have to decide. If your PCs are all larger than life, then it very well may be appropriate. If they are supposed to be of more "normal" STR levels, then it wouldn't be. If a GM wanted the latter to be true, but didn't want to tell the PCs "no" during the build proccess, then I think charging 2-for-1 for STR can help a GM keep his PCs STR levels down with it.

 

Or, he could up the STR of the blacksmith to 18 and the strongman to 23 and get a similar result...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

STR gives good bang for your buck in all games. The number of points "gained" from figured stats alone makes every point of STR worth more than 1 pt. You get what...6 pts of figured CHAR out of the first 5 pts spent on STR? So' date=' you spend 5 points and get 11 pts worth of stats. Even worse, for the first 3 pts spent on STR, players get 8 pts worth of stats, or an additional 5 pts for your 3 spent. [/quote']

 

10 STR nets 11 points of Figureds (2 PD + 2 REC + 5 STUN).

 

10 CON nets 21 points of Figureds (2 ED + 2 REC + 5 STUN +20 END)

 

Is CON also underpriced?

 

As for breakpoints, this also means selling back 2 STR costs you only 1 point in Figureds.

 

The best fix for the above, IMO, would be not to raise the price of STR or CON, but to lower the price of REC, STUN and END, deem them defensive powers for purposes of adjustment power effects, perhaps re-jig the formuli a bit to balance STR and CON and change the value of No Figured for each stat to be equal to the value of the lost Figuired's, or alternatively do away with both No Figured and the "Only sell back one figured" rule.

 

But I'm not suggesting the system needs changed. Just that it's not the players fault that some character points are worth more than others. The system is set up that way' date=' for right or wrong. Characters looking to optimize their character will almost always look to up their STR a bit. The return on the investment is too good to pass up.[/quote']

 

This largely depends on where else the points may have gone. It also depends on the game.

 

I don't know. It's your game' date=' so you have to decide. If your PCs are all larger than life, then it very well may be appropriate. If they are supposed to be of more "normal" STR levels, then it wouldn't be. If a GM wanted the latter to be true, but didn't want to tell the PCs "no" during the build proccess, then I think charging 2-for-1 for STR can help a GM keep his PCs STR levels down with it.[/quote']

 

This varies greatly by genre. "That's an extra 50 points for your 60 STR Brick - or drop down to a 35 STR. No, the Energy Projector gets to keep his 12d6 attack - why do you ask?" to me ends the Brick as an archetype in Supers.

 

Would a player pay an extra 20 points (NCM, remember?) to have a 25 STR Woookie in a Star Wars game?

[sbarron]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

10 STR nets 11 points of Figureds (2 PD + 2 REC + 5 STUN).

 

10 CON nets 21 points of Figureds (2 ED + 2 REC + 5 STUN +20 END)

 

Is CON also underpriced?

Well, clearly it is. But it's not a problem so long as all characters are able to take advantage of this value shopping equally. And generally CON can be purchased up without the second glances from the other players and GM that purchasing STR generates, so it's not as big an issue.

 

This varies greatly by genre. "That's an extra 50 points for your 60 STR Brick - or drop down to a 35 STR. No' date=' the Energy Projector gets to keep his 12d6 attack - why do you ask?" to me ends the Brick as an archetype in Supers.[/quote']That's the real problem with STR. Certain characters are "allowed" to take advantage of the bonus points found in STR because of their character description/type. Others can't because of their description. That doesn't seem fair to me.

 

To add to your point, bricks in supers games count on the bonus points from STR to be a viable archetype. I'm pretty sure the STR bonus points are the reason power frameworks were created. The frameworks make up for the points lost by players that don't drop 50-70 pts into STR.

 

But in Heroic games, shouldn't non-STR based characters have a similar mechanism to recoup the points their stronger assiciates get? As there is no power framework for them to take in heroic games, making STR cost more for everyone lessens the point disparity between those who buy up STR and those that do not.

 

Another way to deal with is to just let people buy up their STR accord to their wishes. It wrecks the GMs plans if he wants to have 13 STR be "strong" compared to the PCs, because most PCs will have a minimum 13 STR. But if the GM is willing to see how the PCs stat themselves out, and builds the NPCs accordingly, the benefits provided by purchasing STR points and the campaign world can be cleanly dealt with without changing the cost of anything. Either way should work equally well.

[tesuji]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

10 STR nets 11 points of Figureds (2 PD + 2 REC + 5 STUN).

 

10 CON nets 21 points of Figureds (2 ED + 2 REC + 5 STUN +20 END)

 

Is CON also underpriced?

 

Not really because COn doesn't do much else but provide figured characteristics.

Con rolls are rare so about all else it does is make con stunning more difficult.

 

Strength adds +1d6 attack (may even be ranged if objects handy), +1" leaping, and such.

 

In short, CON is at its core a nested bunch of figs, while strength is a normally priced attack power with bonus figs at the same scale and movement.thrown in for gravy.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

What tesuji said.

 

+10 STR costs 10 and gives you:

+2 PD worth 2

+2 REC worth 4

+5 STUN worth 5

+2d6 HtH damage worth at least 6.666 (I'd say it's worth 10)

+2" Leaping worth 2

x4 Lifting capacity worth ?

Additional Throwing ability worth ??

That's at least 19.666 points worth of stuff for 10 points.

 

+10 CON costs 20 and gives you:

+2 ED worth 2

+2 REC worth 4

+5 STUN worth 5

+20 END worth 10

Additional protection vs. being stunned worth ???

That's about 21 points worth of stuff for 20 points.

 

A 5% bonus I can live with. A 97% bonus is another matter.

 

Yes, if you cap points at 60, Energy Projectors with buy 12d6 EBs while Bricks will only have 40 STR. Boo-freaking-hoo. So stop using point caps. Try DC caps instead, if you really think some kind of cap is necessary (I don't but that's a separate discussion). Or you can keep your point caps and let them buy +12d6 HA for another 60, or some Martial Arts. 20d6 should keep the Bricks happy.

 

And there's nothing to day that frameworks aren't available to Bricks. And there are plenty of Limitations that can make STR et al., cheaper as well. Can you say "Power Armor"?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

+10 STR costs 10 and gives you:

+2 PD worth 2

+2 REC worth 4

+5 STUN worth 5

+2d6 HtH damage worth at least 6.666 (I'd say it's worth 10)

+2" Leaping worth 2

x4 Lifting capacity worth ?

Additional Throwing ability worth ??

That's at least 19.666 points worth of stuff for 10 points.

 

How much are the Multipower OCV and Nonselective Area Effect abilities included in an Energy Blast worth? How much of a limitation would you give for a character who took STR "does not increase lift or throw"? What if he added in "does not enhance leaping"? Actually, I'd just as soon remove leaping - the % of high STR characters in the soource material who are clearly better at leaping is too small to need this to be blended with STR.

 

+10 CON costs 20 and gives you:

+2 ED worth 2

+2 REC worth 4

+5 STUN worth 5

+20 END worth 10

Additional protection vs. being stunned worth ???

That's about 21 points worth of stuff for 20 points.

 

I'd argue that avoidance of being Stunned has value. As has been noted repeatedly, once you're stunned, your opponents are doing something wrong if they don't take advantage of that and put you out. What's that worth?

 

And there's nothing to day that frameworks aren't available to Bricks. And there are plenty of Limitations that can make STR et al.' date=' cheaper as well. Can you say "Power Armor"?[/quote']

 

What if we changed the cost of STR to 2:1, but also made STR (with figured characteristics, and no limitations) legal for all frameworks, including EC's since STR does cost END to use?

 

Those same limitations make other powers, and their frameworks, cheaper as well.

[John Desmarais]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

What if he added in "does not enhance leaping"? Actually' date=' I'd just as soon remove leaping - the % of high STR characters in the soource material who are clearly better at leaping is too small to need this to be blended with STR.[/quote']

 

 

Admittedly, the number of high STR characters you see using their STR to jump in comics is generally pretty small, the two most iconic examples of high STR characters are pretty famous for it. The Hulk leaps everywhere; and, of course, there's was that other guy who was "able to leap tall buildings in a single bound." It makes perfect sense to me why the designers of the game chose to tie base leaping to STR.

 

From a genre perspective, I generally attribute the lack of leaping to the fact that so many modern bricks can fly. It's not that they can jump lick grasshoppers, it's that they choose not to - why leap around looking silly when you can fly and look cool? (Except for a few noteworth exceptions whose overall concepts don't end themselves to leaping - like the Thing.)

 

 

We now return the cost of STR discussion still in progress.

[John Desmarais]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

What if we changed the cost of STR to 2:1, but also made STR (with figured characteristics, and no limitations) legal for all frameworks, including EC's since STR does cost END to use?

 

Those same limitations make other powers, and their frameworks, cheaper as well.

 

The average affect of an Elemental Control is to drop the cost of a power down to something approaching half normal cost (it's not exactly half, because the EC itself has a base cost which you need to view as being amoratized across the price of all powers withing the EC - but it can get real close to half). So what you're doing is doubling the cost of STR, but then giving them a way to cut the price in half? Why bother?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

The average affect of an Elemental Control is to drop the cost of a power down to something approaching half normal cost (it's not exactly half' date=' because the EC itself has a base cost which you need to view as being amoratized across the price of all powers withing the EC - but it can get real close to half). So what you're doing is doubling the cost of STR, but then giving them a way to cut the price in half? Why bother?[/quote']

 

Exactly - why bother? I'm not seeing a balance problem with STR priced as it is.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

 

Admittedly, the number of high STR characters you see using their STR to jump in comics is generally pretty small, the two most iconic examples of high STR characters are pretty famous for it. The Hulk leaps everywhere; and, of course, there's was that other guy who was "able to leap tall buildings in a single bound."

 

Superman used leaping for a year or so, after which he could fly instead. And neither the Hulk nor early Superman would get enough Leaping from STR to be even close to their comic book counterparts. In any case, while a number of high STR characters use Leaping to get around, many use Flight (as you note) and some just have to walk (Thing and Colossus being a couple of easy example).

 

I would suggest there are far more high STR characters who can bounce bullets than use Leaping to get around. Should high STR grant rPD as well, or should it be purchased separately?

 

Of course, this reasoning ultimately leads back to unbundling figured characteristics entirely, but that's a whole 'nother thread!

[Manic Typist]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I like the idea of a 2:1 in Heroic fantasy games. I think it would work nicely on my PCs. I wish I had thought of it when I was starting my campaign. Oh well... too late now haha.

 

But, what do you guys think of the same 2:1 in Heroic Dark Champions games? There, I do not think it is quite as... genre, I suppose.

[John Desmarais]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I like the idea of a 2:1 in Heroic fantasy games. I think it would work nicely on my PCs. I wish I had thought of it when I was starting my campaign. Oh well... too late now haha.

 

But, what do you guys think of the same 2:1 in Heroic Dark Champions games? There, I do not think it is quite as... genre, I suppose.

 

If I were going to implement an increase is STR cost for a campaign, it would only be done for heroic-level genres where STR actually matters. In a heroic-level Dark Champions game, I would think modern firearms would be the most commons weapons, so STR isn't going to relavent to a lot of the combat damage (and the STR min on most firearms is quite low).

 

Basically, it would be genres where low-tech weapons are going to be the norm: Fantasy Hero, Martial Arts campaigns, and low-tech historical settings are the first one that comes to mind. In these types of game, STR has a direct impact on the damage done by the commonly used weapons and players will have a tendancy to try to pump the STR (perhaps a bit higher than original character concepts would seem to indicate).

 

In things like Pulp, Star Hero, any type of modern day "action/adventure" game STR isn't relavent enough to most of players for the cost to matter. Players who want their character (conceptually) to be strong are going to drop a few points in it, and then move on to the things that really matter to them (skills, talents, etc) and never really think about the STR again because it will so rarely come up.

 

Now, having rambled on about it, it's still pretty unlikely that I would actually bother to raise the price of STR for any game (although I have been known to fiddle around with Normal Characteristic Maximums) as I'm not in the "STR is too cheap" camp.