2 for 1 pt STR - Question

[Lucius]

I know a lot of people have opinions about the cost of STR. Right now, though, I'm only asking those who have actually participated - either playing or running - in a game where the cost of STR was increased. I know some people have mentioned a house rule of 2 pts per pt of STR.

 

If you haven't actually experienced such a rule, then whether you love the idea or hate it, I'd rather you hold off on addressing it.

 

For those who HAVE experienced it first hand, I want to know what effect it had on the game? How long did the game run? What sort of campaign was it - superhero, fantasy, sci fi or what? How did it effect character design, or the way the game played out?

 

In your opinion, did it benefit the game? How? Did it harm the game? How?

 

Thank you.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that with this opinionated bunch, it may be too much to hope that only those with experience will sound off....

[Bloodstone]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Can I get back to you in about a month? The game that were are trying that in (a 150pt FH game) should start next week...

[Markdoc]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I've been doing it in all my heroic games, since ... oh, forever. In terms of how long the games lasted, between 6 months to 4 years, for different campaigns (mostly 2-4 years). In heroic games, I also routinely use NCM, so going over 20 gets to be expensive.

 

As to how it worked? Great, just great. It hasn't prevented characters - even starting characters - from having 20 STR or even more (one human character had STR 23 before he got any magical buffs). Non-human characters obviously got much higher than that. On the other hand, we moved away from the situation where *every* character had STR 15 or 18.

 

In fantasy games (most of the campaigns I run) STR does tend towards the upper end, especially for warrior types. If they don't start there, they tend to gravitate there over time. But still, in the the last game, which ran 2 1/2 years real time, we had a spread of STR from 13-20 by the end. In the game before, it was 8-20. Compare that to the last game I ran with STR at 1 per point where we had a range of 18-20 after 3 sessions. The current fantasy game, which has been running about 4 months now has a range from 10-21.

 

In Sci-fi Games, there's less tendency to gravitate to the upper end, and in modern/espionage even less, though if you routinely gave out weapons with big STR min. My last conspiracy/modern game ended with some characters in the 10-13 range after 6 months play.

 

Two campaigns ago, one player wanted to play a giant wrestler type. Originally he had planned for STR 23 starting out. When I pointed out we were using 2 point per, he dropped to STR20. Several sessions later he commented that the character actually "felt stronger" at 20 using this approach than at 23 using 1 point per - because the difference between him and the other PCs was actually more significant.

 

Frankly, I cannot think of a single reason why I'd ever want to move back to 1 pt for STR. The disadvantages are manifold and the advantages .. well, there aren't any.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I've both played in and run fantasy campaigns that bought STR at 2 per 1 point. The former ran for about a year, the latter maybe six months. We did it for fantasy because of the importance of muscle powered weapons to the genre.

 

Overall everyone was pretty satisfied with the result. We saw a greater variety in STR among the PCs than is typical of heroic level games that I've been in. A couple of spellcasters even sold back a little of their STR because they could actually get a decent return on it. I also think that the swordswingers and spellcasters balanced better with each other.

 

One adjustment we did make, which I recommend, was to eliminate the Characteristic Maximum for STR. Doubling the cost again for STR over 20 makes it very costly to build those brawny barbarian types that some players are so fond of.

[keithcurtis]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I've used it for about 4 years and heartily endorse it. I have only had players ask for a STR above 20 if it is really, really in concept. One was a giant and the other was a mutant.

 

In broad terms, you could probebly get the same effect by asking players to curb their enthusiasm for high STR, but this is simpler and more in keeping with the Hero philosophy of charging more for characteristics with greater utility. STR is far more important in a muscle-powered economy, so it should cost more.

 

Keith "any specific questions?" Curtis

[sbarron]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

For those who HAVE experienced it first hand, I want to know what effect it had on the game? How long did the game run? What sort of campaign was it - superhero, fantasy, sci fi or what? How did it effect character design, or the way the game played out?

 

In your opinion, did it benefit the game? How? Did it harm the game? How?

We used it in a fantasy game that ran for about a year. Quite frankly, the effect it had was almost negligible. Only fighter types chose to buy their strength up to the 18-20 level. No one went over 20 (which we frequently did with 1/1 costs), so that was a minor change.

 

Another potential effect was that the non-fighter types either didn't buy any additional STR, or bought only up to 13. The game was pretty fighter heavy, so it didn't effect a lot of characters character choices. Generally, under the 1/1 system, very few players I gamed with bought a lot of strength for characters that weren't fighter types anyway, so it's hard to say how much effect it had in the end.

 

I think its a good idea if you'd like to keep strength numbers from being real high to start, and if you want to enfore the genre staples of fighters strong/mages weak. Other than that, I guess it cost a bit more to be a fighter type. But even at 2/1, STR is still a good deal for fighters, so you just buy it up anyway.

 

Hope this helps.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Just to pop in.. I see mostly people have used in Fantasy Games, where it has a significant impact. And i can see why, and would go along with it were I in such a game.

 

How has it worked for a Superheroic Game? If anyone has tried it for that?

[Rapier]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

In Champions games it never had much of an effect. Maybe the character had one less die of attack or something but an additional 15 or 20 points for doubling the STR is just a drop in the bucket when you are talking about 350 pt characters.

 

In heroic games it made a HUGE dent. There just wasn't enough points available to balance out and warriors had significantly less abilities and skills. It also drastically reduced the utility of archetype straddling characters.

 

In either case, when you increase the cost of STR the points usually come out of skills and background abilities (PERKs and Talents).

[ghost-angel]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

In Champions games it never had much of an effect. Maybe the character had one less die of attack or something but an additional 15 or 20 points for doubling the STR is just a drop in the bucket when you are talking about 350 pt characters.

 

In heroic games it made a HUGE dent. There just wasn't enough points available to balance out and warriors had significantly less abilities and skills. It also drastically reduced the utility of archetype straddling characters.

 

In either case, when you increase the cost of STR the points usually come out of skills and background abilities (PERKs and Talents).

If I get the gist of what you're saying.. Doubling the cost of STR is generally a good thing for Heroic Games as it ends up giving greater diversity for what is normally a much narrower range of STR scores. But in Superheroic is can actually detract as the Super STR Characters just pull from their Skill/Perk Points?

[sbarron]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

If I get the gist of what you're saying.. Doubling the cost of STR is generally a good thing for Heroic Games as it ends up giving greater diversity for what is normally a much narrower range of STR scores. But in Superheroic is can actually detract as the Super STR Characters just pull from their Skill/Perk Points?

I think he's saying the opposite. That there is a big effect in heroic games, but not so much in supers.

 

I don't agree with him, as in most heroic games this will cost PCs at most an extra 10 pts (to get to 20) STR. 10 points isn't a big deal to 125-150 pt characters who are playing a class that focuses on STR (1/15th total cost). To get to 60 STR in a supers game would cost an extra 50 pts (1/6th total cost). But different strokes...

[ghost-angel]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I think he's saying the opposite. That there is a big effect in heroic games, but not so much in supers.

 

I don't agree with him, as in most heroic games this will cost PCs at most an extra 10 pts (to get to 20) STR. 10 points isn't a big deal to 125-150 pt characters who are playing a class that focuses on STR (1/15th total cost). To get to 60 STR in a supers game would cost an extra 50 pts (1/6th total cost). But different strokes...

ermm...

 

Greater Diversity in Heroic = Good Thing, creating greater range of STR Scores as even an extra 10pts in a 75-150 pt game can mean more. Or rather, players won't be so frivilous in just tossing some pts into STR.

 

Using up extra points to get to Very High STR = possibly not good thing as they'll just end up getting sucked from Skills/Perks and other Non-Combat items.

 

...That's how I'm currently seeing it at least.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I know a lot of people have opinions about the cost of STR. Right now, though, I'm only asking those who have actually participated - either playing or running - in a game where the cost of STR was increased. I know some people have mentioned a house rule of 2 pts per pt of STR.

 

If you haven't actually experienced such a rule, then whether you love the idea or hate it, I'd rather you hold off on addressing it.

 

For those who HAVE experienced it first hand, I want to know what effect it had on the game? How long did the game run? What sort of campaign was it - superhero, fantasy, sci fi or what? How did it effect character design, or the way the game played out?

 

In your opinion, did it benefit the game? How? Did it harm the game? How?

 

Thank you.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that with this opinionated bunch, it may be too much to hope that only those with experience will sound off....

 

Game: Savage Earth

Character: Palon

STR: 18

Level: Heroic

 

Ultimately, it means stronger characters are rarer. And as someone who is playing a strong character, it means I'm the one that does the heavy lifting and the heavy work. I also come across as more threatening than playing a character with a 20 or higher STR. And in truth, I lost an extra 8 points. And what would that have given me? A single full flexible CSL or slightly improved skills. Perhaps two extra martial maneuvers.

 

In the end, it was not a major difference and it makes my character feel, well, unique and apart from the rest more. I like it.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Well, in a 250 pt. supers game, with, say, a 50 STR brick, you go from spending 40 points on STR to spending 80, then having 170 points left for other stats and powers.

In a 350 point supers game, with a 60 STR brick for 100 points, it's probably manageable, but someone at Grond level gets inordinately expensive at 160 points for a 90 STR.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

It's interesting that we haven't heard from anyone who doubled the cost in a Supers game. I suspect it becomes a bigger deal in Heroic games because the range is smaller already, and especially in fantasy where both uncumbrance and muscle-powered weapons are common issues.

 

In Superheroic, those characters reliant on STR buy a lot more than in Heroic games. as pointed out, sucking an extra 8 or 10 points out of the Brawny Warrior isn't as huge a character alteration as sucking an extra 50 points out of a Brick, or 80 out of Grond.

 

As well, the Heroic character may not pay the full cost, given the anecdotal evidence that the 25 STR barbarian may only take a 20 STR (same cost) in a game where STR costs are doubled, because 20 is way stronger than most other PC's. Meanwhile, in Champions, if the Brick cuts back to, say, 45 STR rather than 60 to shave some points, he's a wimp compared to the Energy Projectors and martial artists.

[RDU Neil]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I would like to further ask about Martial Arts costs for those who used the 2 for 1 costs.

 

First, I am a big supporter of raising STR costs to 2 for 1... supers or not, but I feel the biggest, most significant effective will be in heroic level games.

 

What I've noticed in the past is that Martial Arts, cost based on 1 for 1 STR cost... are WAY WAY powerful (too powerfu) in heroic level games. I've always house ruled that the maneuver cost the same, but they offer one less DC than listed.

 

If STR were now 2/1, it seems that Martial maneuvers should offer half as many Damage Classes for the same cost. Personally I'm totally down with that concept, but I was wondering how it has played out in those games that use 2 for 1. My assumption would be that if you don't change the benefit or cost of Martial Arts... then players would be silly not to buy Martial Maneuvers over STR in order to be the kick butt fighter.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I would like to further ask about Martial Arts costs for those who used the 2 for 1 costs.

 

First, I am a big supporter of raising STR costs to 2 for 1... supers or not, but I feel the biggest, most significant effective will be in heroic level games.

 

What I've noticed in the past is that Martial Arts, cost based on 1 for 1 STR cost... are WAY WAY powerful (too powerfu) in heroic level games. I've always house ruled that the maneuver cost the same, but they offer one less DC than listed.

 

If STR were now 2/1, it seems that Martial maneuvers should offer half as many Damage Classes for the same cost. Personally I'm totally down with that concept, but I was wondering how it has played out in those games that use 2 for 1. My assumption would be that if you don't change the benefit or cost of Martial Arts... then players would be silly not to buy Martial Maneuvers over STR in order to be the kick butt fighter.

 

I agree that raising the cost of STR will make martial arts unbalanced by comparison. Hand Attack also becomes unbalanced by comparison, I suspect. Of course, if we fix all that, then Energy Projectors become unbalanced, since they're getting attack dice at 5 points each.

 

Has ANYONE seen a 2:1 STR cost applied in a Supers game? If so, I'd like to hear what the end result was.

[Kristopher]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

STR is far more important in a muscle-powered economy' date=' so it should cost more.[/quote']

 

One could say the opposite, that STR is far more common in a muscle-powered economy.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Well, in a supers game, if you increase the cost of STR, you likely have to increase the cost of Martial Arts and HA, or at least make it less cost-effective. Energy Projectors will then become dominant, unless you also increase the cost of all attack powers...

...in which case, what's the point?

 

I don't think it's too imbalancing to have cheap STR in a supers game, compared to a heroic-level game, so there doesn't seem to be a pressing need for it.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I advocate the 2 for 1 STR for all genres, but I haven't actually run a Superheroic game in a while, so I can give actual evidence.

 

And yes, I *always* modify HA as well, as I mentioned on the "House Rules" thread. My rule is that HA is 5 points per d6, and you don't get a "Hand-to-hand Attack" limitation on it. Just like HKAs don't get a limitation just for being an HKA, and EBs don't get a limitation for being EBs, etc.

 

But I had completely forgotten about Martial Arts. I have left the cost of maneuvers the same, and it hasn't been a problem, because the characters generally haven't bought extra DCs (and there aren't that many MAists, anyway). Now that it's been brought to my attention, then yes, extra DCs will have to be increased in price. What should they be? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking 6 points each, instead of the current 4. 7 1/2 is also a possibility, but it seems to be a little too much.

 

That way you have:

5 points/d6 for EBs - ranged

5 points/d6 for HAs - STR adds

6 points/d6 for MA DCs - STR adds and can be applied flexibly to various maneuvers

 

That seems balanced.

 

And for Supers, I still think it's balanced. Grond *should* be expensive. He's really tough! His STR gives him 18 points of REC and 45 STUN, and his *base* PD is 18, before he's even spent additional points on it.

 

Yes, a 45 STR (by itself) is not enough to compete with a 12d6 EB, but it doesn't have to be by itself. 45 STR + 3d6 HA, gives you the same 12d6. You could even have 45 STR + Offensive Strike (13d6), or some other martial maneuver, possibly combined with HA or additional DCs.

 

This could even help to create more diversity among bricks, as they can combine varying amounts of STR/HA/MA/DC. So you could have one brick that is incredibly strong, and another that's not quite as strong, but punches just as hard.

 

Back to heroic games, which is where most of my recent GMing experience is: In addition to the benefits described by the other posters, it also makes selling back your base STR viable for the character types that should be more physically weak: the scholarly, wizardly, stealthy types. Why would anyone want to sell their STR down to 5 when you lose not only a lot of combat effectiveness (you can't even meet the STR mins on most weapons), but you also lose 2 STUN, 1 PD, and 1 REC, and all you get for your sacrifice is 5 points. If you get back 10 points, that's a lot closer to the value you're giving up.

[Kristopher]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Energy Blast, 5 pts per DC, has range, gives no figured characteristics

 

STR, 5 pts per DC, not ranged, gives figured characteristics

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I haven't found Martial Arts to be a problem with 2 pt. STR in heroic level games. The rules advise against allowing extra Damage Classes in such games, so the damage increase is not overwhelming; and requiring characters to invest in a minimum number of maneuvers from a given MA style means they have to pony up a fair number of points to get the benefits of that extra damage. Of course, some character concepts simply don't lend themselves to martial arts - case closed.

 

As for Hand-To-Hand Attack, in heroic level games everyone has access to weapons built with it without paying points, so again I've never had a problem with it. If you're using it as part of something like a magic spell, it would be as balanced (or not) as any other spell casting, depending on how your game's magic system works.

 

I've never increased the cost of STR for superheroic games, because it's always seemed balanced to me in such games, all other factors considered. So I guess I'm not much help there.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Fantasy campaign. Players found it difficult to have effective but diverse characters, because you have to have pretty high Str to wield weapons effectively. If I were to do it again I would go through and reduce a lot of the Str Mins of the weapons in the standard charts. It makes sense to me to do that anyway; they are way too high (in many cases).

[keithcurtis]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

Game: Savage Earth

Character: Palon

STR: 18

Level: Heroic

 

Ultimately, it means stronger characters are rarer. And as someone who is playing a strong character, it means I'm the one that does the heavy lifting and the heavy work. I also come across as more threatening than playing a character with a 20 or higher STR. And in truth, I lost an extra 8 points. And what would that have given me? A single full flexible CSL or slightly improved skills. Perhaps two extra martial maneuvers.

 

In the end, it was not a major difference and it makes my character feel, well, unique and apart from the rest more. I like it.

This is true. Out of 8 characters in the party, he's the brick (easily) at 18 STR.

 

BTW, I'm glad this hasn't devolved into a debate about whether it's better to charge 2 for 1. (Though it's come close). Kudos to all for keeping it to personal experience.

 

Keith "Charge me a million points for STR. I'll sell it back. :)" Curtis

[Markdoc]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

I agree that raising the cost of STR will make martial arts unbalanced by comparison. Hand Attack also becomes unbalanced by comparison' date=' I suspect. [/quote']

 

In games where STR is raised to 2 points HA moves to 5, so that it balances perfectly with EB.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 2 for 1 pt STR - Question

 

In games where STR is raised to 2 points HA moves to 5' date=' so that it balances perfectly with EB.[/quote']

 

On the one hand, the likelihood that HA balances perfectly with a power that does the same damage, at range and can be spread to enhance OCV or to strike multiple targets.

 

On the other hand, HKA and RKA seem to balance out OK, and the same tradeoff exists - one adds STR and the other gets range. Mind you, I've rarely seen KA's spread, and see it much more with EB's.

 

Where I've seen classic Bricks get the most frustrated is against agents. The EP dpreads his 12d6 EB over 4 hexes to catch 4 agenst (or uses an AE slot in his multipower), but the Brick just hits one agent with less force.