UrielFallen Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 How fast does a character have to be before you consider them eligable of dodging bullets? I understand that in more cinematic campaigns, characters often duck and cover, or find shelter from flying munitions due to luck, but I'm curious as to how fast a person would have to be to be able to avoid bullets without having to find cover, or even throw themselves to the ground. I usually put characters with a 26 Dexterity and/or 5 SPD to be the type that can twist to avoid a few shots if they're prepared, but would get butchered by automatic fire. At 30 Dex and 6 SPD, the character is on par with Spidey and can dodge machinegun fire fairly efficiently, but can still be hit up close. One character, with a 36 Dex and 7 SPD dodged half a dozen people firing at him at once with automatic weapons, simply evading the bullets until they ran out of ammo...but, then again, he also had a 24 OCV when dodging, but still... So, how fast do your fighters have to be do bullet-time style acrobatics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herolover Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Very interesting question. The problem with this in HERO system is that "dodging bullets" is pretty much a special effect. It could be the special effect for any of the Defensive powers or could just be the GM'ing saying "He missed so you must have dodged the bullets." As a rule, I would say it depended greatly upon the genre. For low level "heroic-genres" I would pretty much rule out "dodging bullets." In Champions I would say it depends upon the power in question and the character concept. I have some characters that are not hit because they "dodge bullets," but because they are lucky and "things just happen to get in the way." Otherwise I would say you would have to at least have 27 DEX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 When you dodge, you're not dodging the bullet. You're dodging where he's pointing the gun, hoping to get out of the way before he pulls the trigger. If you want to do a Neo, buy Missile Deflection with Autofire or lots of PSLs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herolover Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Originally posted by archer When you dodge, you're not dodging the bullet. You're dodging where he's pointing the gun, hoping to get out of the way before he pulls the trigger. If you want to do a Neo, buy Missile Deflection with Autofire or lots of PSLs. I personally disagree with this. I could easily buy FF and say the bullets missed me and when I do take some damage say "well, I dodged but they grazed me." + levels with DCV could also be to "dodge bullets." The examples you give are not wrong, but they are your interpetation and not the only possible interpetation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_nau Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 I would say to dodge bullets pick up Desolidification with the disadvantage cannot move through solid objects, or some such, ends up being only 27 points. Of course if you wanted to also attack while not solid you'd have to take that advantage, still it is easy enough to accomplish without a high dexterity. mn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Dodging bullets like the Agents and Neo in The Matrix is a special effect of Desolidification. I have used a very similar effect for a villian in a martial arts comapaign I ran some years ago (Desol, can't pass through solids, required a skill roll [acrobatics]) I don't think you need a "minimum" Dex and Speed for this...it is merely a SFX, however, for the context of your own personal universe, perhaps you can allow characters who reach this minimum Dex and Spd to then purchase the "Bullet-Time Dodging" ability. Or perhaps allow them to purchase skill levels to DCV (only vs bullets -1) to represent the fact that they can nearly always instantly dodge bullets fired in their direction (unless they are taken by Surprise like the Agent that Trinity shot) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Actually while desolid is a valid way to model this in other situations , in this specific example its pprobalby not the way to go because -All the characters have this ability to some extent with Neo and the Agents representing the pinnacle. -They can all be shot by anyone using any weapon. There is no special ammo needed to hit them, just a successful ofr failed action on their part. -The number of shots fired and how rapidly does have an affect on whether they are struck. Given all this, I'd use missle deflection as the power of choice for modeling the Matrix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Orange Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Originally posted by Grailknight Given all this, I'd use missle deflection as the power of choice for modeling the Matrix. Ya, but they also attack while dodging the grunts' fire - with MD they could only do one or the other (unless you start adding Uncontrolled (is this the right advantage?)...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_nau Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 just add a requires skill roll to the power as another limitation. Then based on how good the character was the power could have more skill levels added on. mn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyrm Ouroboros Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 Cripes. There are so many ways to answer this, all of them right. Desolidification. Expensive, but there you go. Missile Deflection. Expensive to do it at a really high level, but it works too. Having a high DCV vs. Ranged. 'Dodging Bullets' is just the special effect of your 5-point skill levels. (Or is DCV vs. Ranged a 3-point skill level?) Do it the way you want to do it; I personally would go with a fusion of a high DCV (normals couldn't hit 'em) and a couple levels of MD (for getting out of the way of the agents). On the other hand, STOPPING the bullets would be a pretty basic Force Wall, probably at 12-15 PD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 Originally posted by Col. Orange Ya, but they also attack while dodging the grunts' fire - with MD they could only do one or the other (unless you start adding Uncontrolled (is this the right advantage?)...). Yep. Uncontrolled Missile Deflection allows you to make missile deflection rolls automatically, without spending a phase to do so. Its mentioned in FREd (or was that The Ultimate Martial Artist...I don't remember which) with a big CAUTION in the text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J4y Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 How fast does a character have to be before you consider them eligable of dodging bullets? I understand that in more cinematic campaigns, characters often duck and cover, or find shelter from flying munitions due to luck, but I'm curious as to how fast a person would have to be to be able to avoid bullets without having to find cover, or even throw themselves to the ground. Lots of good answers, for a purely superheroic viewpoint where someone like Wonderwoman can block bullets "because she can" you just buy the power. If you're trying for "realism" and saying someone needs to actually be able to react and move fast enough before they could have the option of buying a bullet immunity skill/effect/power/ability , then if you assume close range bullets can be going mach 2 up to mach 3, about 1km/s. I'd be inclined to say any speed + movement combination that lets players go a significant fraction of that speed, say 600m/s combat (ignoring acceleration...), could "easily" avoid bullets so could buy desolid. Bullets slow down quickly so the further from the gun the slower the bullet will be going and the more time the player will have to react so if you're willing to have a limitation that you can't do it when close to the gun, you could cut the speed you need down by quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest white peregrine Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 ...wouldn't "Pulling a Neo" be closer to stopping the bullets in the air before him as in the end of the Matrix? while the dodging bullet schtick would go to the agents...."You See an Agent..Run" ...just a thought.... in regards to the above I would go with the Following: Pulling a Neo force field or missle defection would be the best way to go, imo. he stops the bullets before they actually hit him. I am inclined to say force wall as the overall best option. You See an Agent...Run here's where the bullet dodging is...Neo, while good was no where near the level of agents in this regard. going with what we see on the rooftop scene between Neo, an Agent and Trinity I would say Desol is the way to go. The agent makes no attacks at all against automatic gun fire that is directed towards him and just "dodges" the bullets. in addition, I would say that you could put not only a skill roll on it but that the "hero" has to be aware of the attack...Trinity ends the scene by actually landing a shot on the agent which she did by getting the drop on the agent...no dodging happened as he was not aware of this surprise attack... ....just some thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by J4y How fast does a character have to be before you consider them eligable of dodging bullets? I understand that in more cinematic campaigns, characters often duck and cover, or find shelter from flying munitions due to luck, but I'm curious as to how fast a person would have to be to be able to avoid bullets without having to find cover, or even throw themselves to the ground. Lots of good answers, for a purely superheroic viewpoint where someone like Wonderwoman can block bullets "because she can" you just buy the power. If you're trying for "realism" and saying someone needs to actually be able to react and move fast enough before they could have the option of buying a bullet immunity skill/effect/power/ability , then if you assume close range bullets can be going mach 2 up to mach 3, about 1km/s. I'd be inclined to say any speed + movement combination that lets players go a significant fraction of that speed, say 600m/s combat (ignoring acceleration...), could "easily" avoid bullets so could buy desolid. Bullets slow down quickly so the further from the gun the slower the bullet will be going and the more time the player will have to react so if you're willing to have a limitation that you can't do it when close to the gun, you could cut the speed you need down by quite a bit. Those would be rifle bullets, correct? The speed of sound is about 1050 fps (320 m/s). While rifle muzzle velocities are about Mach 2 to Mach 3.5+, pistol velocities aren't close. 38 Special ------- 710 to 995 fps 45 Auto ---------- 835 to 1000 fps 9mm Luger ------ 990 to 1155 fps 10mm Auto ------ 1150 fps 40 S&W ----------- 985 to 1205 fps 357 Magnum ---- 1145 to 1295 fps 357 Sig ------------ 1350 fps 44 Magnum ------ 1610 fps 454 Casull -------- 1625 fps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heroman Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 I don't think I would go with an Uncontrolled MD; from what I recall the person 'matrixing' took no other actions other than the dodging so I would guess it is an active action. I would go with a martial dodge maneuver with lotsa DCV levels. For the most part, you should be able to dodge anything shot at you if your focus is not being hit and you are not caught by surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Orange Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by Heroman I don't think I would go with an Uncontrolled MD; from what I recall the person 'matrixing' took no other actions other than the dodging so I would guess it is an active action. I would go with a martial dodge maneuver with lotsa DCV levels. For the most part, you should be able to dodge anything shot at you if your focus is not being hit and you are not caught by surprise. Government building scene near the end of Matrix 1? After walking through the metal detectors Neo and Trinity avoid getting hit by clouds of lead sprayed from M16s and Shotguns while neatly returning fire. I do agree that Uncontrolled MD is wrong though. I'd go for lots of 5pt DCV levels with RASR: Acrobatics and maybe Only vs. Ranged Attacks (-1/2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heroman Posted June 25, 2003 Report Share Posted June 25, 2003 Ah, I thought you were talking about the matrixing which actually had a visual effect (the agent super speed/visual split) scale avoidance. I would still agree that normally is it just really good levels of DCV (ya, at least several levels with RSR Acrobatics) ; heck at that range trained goons with AF are just as good as single shot goons... The really super speed avoidance would still prob be just skill levels/martial dodge too (maybe some Matrix KS instead of Acrobatics, though) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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