"Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

[Lightray]

*snip rant*

Well. That was certainly judgmental. Not very "Christian".

 

Also: rude. And on that, I won't entertain any rebuttals.

[David Johnston]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

The whole concept of the superhuman is, by Judeo-Christian definition, 'blasphemous'. It is based on man being discontent with waiting on and for God to be our hero, our justice and our vengance. Now that's an extreme POV, and if one follows it through you really can't make any excuses for it... you either agree with it or you don't, but by definition it is undeniable no matter if you are profiting from it or not. If you are serious about being a disciple to the Christ then you would be serious in seeing how rediculous the concept of the 'Christian superhero' is.

 

RE: Spears, Weapons, Powers, etc. Artifacts are useless to the true Christian tradition. As a matter of fact, they are counter-intuitive to the concept of the Holy Spirit being all that we have been left with and all that we need for the fulfilment of our faith. Sure these relics exist, but if they were lost, stolen or destroyed tomorrow it wouldn't mean a thing to the Spirit's contemporary work. Useless trinkets are meaningless when the Creator who made them can never be lost, stolen or destroyed. It's harmful to engage in such talk... why not just make up a religeon instead of making light of such a serious issue? You'd get further and you could have total freedom when it comes to what you're dealing with.

 

This kind of line of reasoning is of course precisely why Marvel ended up with quite a few characters with Satanic or quasi Satanic connections and a distinct lack of representation from the other side of the table. The Satanists weren't going to complain about their side's fictional representations, while some Christians inevitably would. But it always bothered me that in the fictional battle betwixt good and evil, Heaven was a no-show but Hell was very much in evidence. It just struck me as wrong.

[Zeropoint]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Labrat, as a Christian I find your post excessively judgemental and poorly thought out. It sounds as though you are saying that helping others at the cost of effort and risk on one's own part is UN-Christian.

 

Why is a Christian superhero "laughable", when a Christian police officer, fire fighter, soldier, doctor, nurse, park ranger, physical therapist, prosthetics researcher, pharmacist, or soup kitchen volunteer is perfectly reasonable? What makes it "okay" for them to use their abilities and talents and time to help people, but not the super?

 

Zeropoint

[OddHat]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Labrat, as a Christian I find your post excessively judgemental and poorly thought out. It sounds as though you are saying that helping others at the cost of effort and risk on one's own part is UN-Christian.

 

Why is a Christian superhero "laughable", when a Christian police officer, fire fighter, soldier, doctor, nurse, park ranger, physical therapist, prosthetics researcher, pharmacist, or soup kitchen volunteer is perfectly reasonable? What makes it "okay" for them to use their abilities and talents and time to help people, but not the super?

 

Zeropoint

 

I once gamed with a Born Again Christian couple who were convinced that magic was un-Christian, and therefore refused to game in a campaign featuring spell casting. I think it may be the idea of Super Powers that some might object to as "un-Christian".

 

Later the pair in question changed their minds, reasoning that RPGs are interactive fiction, and that it was not blasphemous for them to tell stories about worlds where magic existed.

 

On a personal note, I don't believe in men with bullet proof skin who can throw tanks, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying comics and RPGs. If it did, I wouldn't be posting on a Superhero board.

[Zeropoint]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

So, it would be blasphemous to think about God granting, say, super-human strength to someone so he could fight for God's people? Like Sampson?

[OddHat]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

So' date=' it would be blasphemous to think about God granting, say, super-human strength to someone so he could fight for God's people? Like Sampson?[/quote']

 

I think its more that there can be no source of miraculous power other than G_d or the devil.

 

Only two of the Christians I've gamed with over the last twenty-six years or so have made that sort of assertion in a gaming context; the vast majority have been fine with the whole "it's a story" concept.

It is based on man being discontent with waiting on and for God to be our hero, our justice and our vengance.

I would add that Labrat appears to be asserting that the idea of heroism itself is un-Christian, as it involves men acting to help and protect one-another instead of waiting for G_d. I've heard this one before as well. I do not personally know any Christian who would agree with it.

[Egyptoid]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I forgot I had this major NPC in my old champs game.

 

the PC team magician was from the zatanna school:

massive VPP type magic of any kind,

and did the stage magic thing on TV to generate cash.

 

okay his father the NPC was also a powerful magician.

but he was a pure theurgist, and worked as an inquisitor

and exorcist for the catholic church. (paladin/cleric, if you will)

 

and in game that character really would have preferred if his

son had used hs powers more wisely, but at the last did admit

that his son did heroic things, despite all the chicanery.

[Kristopher]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Labrat, as a Christian I find your post excessively judgemental and poorly thought out. It sounds as though you are saying that helping others at the cost of effort and risk on one's own part is UN-Christian.

 

Why is a Christian superhero "laughable", when a Christian police officer, fire fighter, soldier, doctor, nurse, park ranger, physical therapist, prosthetics researcher, pharmacist, or soup kitchen volunteer is perfectly reasonable? What makes it "okay" for them to use their abilities and talents and time to help people, but not the super?

 

Very good points.

[Zeropoint]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Story:

 

During a bad flood, a man was forced onto the roof of his house by rising waters. As the muddy water lapped at his eaves, a group of his neighbors came by in a fishing boat. "Come on, hop in and we'll get to safety," they said.

"No, thank you," said the man. "I am safe in God's hands, and He will provide for me."

 

The waters continued to rise with time, and as the water rose to the middle of his roof, a Red Cross inflatable motor boat came by. "Sir, come with us," the rescue workers asked. "It's not safe here--the water is still rising."

"Thank you, but God is looking after me, and He will provide." Unable to convice him to move, the rescue crew moved on.

 

The water kept rising, and soon forced the man to the very peak of his roof. Few other houses were still above water. A helicopter searching the area for the last few stragglers spotted him, and hovered over his house, dropping a rope ladder. "Sir!" they called, "You've got to come with us NOW! You can't survive here!"

"Go on without me!" he shouted back, "For I trust in God to provide a way for me!" Puzzled, the helicopter crew turned away.

 

The water kept rising, and the man eventually drowned. He appeared in heaven, and came before God. "Why?" asked the man. "I was faithful to you to the very end. Why didn't you save me?"

 

God replied, "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more do you want?"

[Labrat]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Re: Not accepting rebuttlals = me not wanting to hi-jack this thread. PM me instead. I will accept these rebuttals, though, because I can't just ignore them:

 

Re: Judgmental attitude. If you read what I wrote there is nothing in there intended to judge anyone. I'm sorry if you took it that way, but that apology won't cover regret for it being what it is. Individually I hold nobody here more guilty than anybody else regarding this subject matter, myself included -- this matter isn't trivial though. The core issue here is this: why does man have to invent his own icons to cover what he feels that God is lacking in? It's a trust issue. No boy is going to go to hell for pretending to be Superman, but philisophiclaly it's the seed for a lack of trust in God as our champion. Israel was punished for the same lack of trust, and we will be too. I do detest how the 'judgment' smart bomb gets dropped every time a Christian tries to bring Scriptural truth into a conversation. Why would I select out anyone to judge from this anyway? I don't even address individuals in my 'rant'. Above all, it would be counter-active to what I claim. Attitudes can be judged for correctness, but only between believers. Believers are supposed to welcome every attempt at correction. Non-believers will be offended at his teachings no matter what, Christ said it himself. If you think what I am saying is judgmental then you clearly are reading what I said with your own convictions. If it seems like foolishness to you, just ignore it. Otherwise, if you can't ignore it, then PM me.

 

Re: Samson. That power was a one-and-done ability that God granted so that Samson could bring glory to God's name. Mission accomplished. See the 'Sons of Sceva' instead, it's more accurate as to what a 'Christian superhero' would end up as. Look it up, you'll see what I mean.

 

Re: Bravery vs. superhuman ability. I hope that I have to write out the definitions. Don't turn this into an argument against bravery. I think I was clear enough on the issue. Christians are supposed to be brave by definition. Basic stuff, I wouldn't agree with that extreme that Oddhat and Zeropoint pointed out. You've missed the point. PM me.

 

Please, everyone, PM me for further discussion. I won't hi-jack this thread any further though. I spoke my mind as to the topic, which is my right. For those critics to post how unpopular the Christian point of view is on these boards is redundant. There, now I entertained the rebuttals so as to not come off as rude. Again, PM me.

[death tribble]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

It was principally because of the existance of the Crowns of Krim and Takofanes that I commissioned Storn to do the Cardinal and the Battle Angel.

He serves the God and the Church while she answers only to God and goes about ramming her Holy Spear into those that have done evil.

[Markdoc]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I still have a soft spot for my old character Father Azrael - a two-gun totin' catholic priest who worked for the Church's secret order of witch/demon hunters - but could also summon angels to help out

 

This was in a game where demons did exist and (according to my character anyway) were behind all sorts of nefarious plots.

 

cheers, Mark

[CandidGamera]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I will admit that one of the NPCs I considered having cameo in a Silver Age game I ran was a Christian fellow on powered roller skates, which attached to a backpack fusion generator that used Holy Water.

 

He was the Holy Roller, and his slogan was "The power of Christ propels me!"

 

I thought better of it.

[Solomon]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

...and his slogan was "The power of Christ propels me!"

 

It sounds twice as wrong if you look at CandidGamera's avatar while you read it.

[Dominique]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

While not specifically for Champions, I did have an NPC character for M&M called Imani (Faith) that was devout Christian, and pacifist. She was and African American female, with various mental abilities (telepathy, telekinesis, empathic healing), from Atlanta, GA. She daughter of a Southern Baptist Minister and a school teacher. She would only use her abilities in a defensive manner (to protect others from harm), or to heal injured and sick (even villains).

[wagnern]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

http://www.ofertondelibros.com/default.asp?R=0840778074B

 

this is a christian super hero comic I found at a comic convention wonce. (hay, only two issues and 25 cents each? cool)

 

Also look to Anime, sometimes they use christianity when they are looking for 'strange misticsism' (it is strange to them, only a small small small population of japan is christian). I can't remember the searies, but I remember one used Kabola (old jewish misticism).

[Lucius]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I will admit that one of the NPCs I considered having cameo in a Silver Age game I ran was a Christian fellow on powered roller skates, which attached to a backpack fusion generator that used Holy Water.

 

He was the Holy Roller, and his slogan was "The power of Christ propels me!"

 

I thought better of it.

 

We’re so glad you thought better of it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary adds that, thanks to your example, Lucius has thought better of some things he meant to say.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

http://www.ofertondelibros.com/default.asp?R=0840778074B

 

this is a christian super hero comic I found at a comic convention wonce. (hay, only two issues and 25 cents each? cool)

 

 

That's a Marvel comic? Huh, and I never even heard of it.

 

As compared to all those Marvel comics I just *wish* I'd never heard of.

 

Was this made for a foreign market or something similar?

[Labrat]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Can't bee any worse than Bibleman starring Willie Ames (Eight is Enough, Charles in Charge):

 

http://www.bibleman.com/

 

Talk about ungodly... it's campy at the surface and then it quickly turns annoying.

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Well, technically, the "supreme being/power" in the campaign universe is always going to be the GM.

And the campaign setting, whatever it's referred to in game, is aka "the world of make-believe" aka "a bunch of stuff that doesn't exist in the real world".

I also recognize that I will game with people with a wide variety of belief systems.

With that in mind, the caveats I'd put forth :

1. This setting is a make-believe world where many things are not necessarily as we believe them to be in the real world, including it's cosmology.

2. On the one hand, cosmological and conceptual entities exist, and are at least somewhat similar to such beings as we conceive in the real world.

3. On the other hand, such beings are not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent or omnibenevolent/malevolent as we conceive of them in the real world.

4. Where such differences occur, they are not intended as editorial commentary on players' real world belief systems, nor as an expression of the GM's real world belief system, but rather a creative decision made for dramatic purposes(e.g. flawed angels, noble demons, decadent pagan deities, etc.).

5. One possible theory in the campaign universe for the existence of such beings is that they are influenced in some way by our collective unconscious(iow, they exist as they are because of our belief that such is their nature).

6. Players may freely choose to play characters with a spiritual, magical or mythological background, so long as they understand the preceding caveats.

7. It's a game. It's make believe. Villains aren't actually killing people. Gods aren't actually doing battle. Nothing of importance in the real world is being decided this particular afternoon at this particular gaming table. Lighten thy burden and thine mood.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

Can't bee any worse than Bibleman starring Willie Ames (Eight is Enough, Charles in Charge):

 

http://www.bibleman.com/

 

Talk about ungodly... it's campy at the surface and then it quickly turns annoying.

 

I have a hard time believing that it's as mind-numbingly bad as it looks. I mean, bad-ness, unlike stupidity, has its limits, right?

 

But at the risk of derailing the thread, if you want to talk 'Christian tacko', then I have memories of the Archie Christian Comics that not even sulphuric acid applied to my frontal lobe will ever wipe away.

[Labrat]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I have a hard time believing that it's as mind-numbingly bad as it looks. I mean, bad-ness, unlike stupidity, has its limits, right?

 

But at the risk of derailing the thread, if you want to talk 'Christian tacko', then I have memories of the Archie Christian Comics that not even sulphuric acid applied to my frontal lobe will ever wipe away.

 

No, no, no I'm not saying that it's 'mind numbingly bad'. It has it's moments... but only if you appreciate if for the camp value. I'm pretty sure that 'camp' is what they were going for. 'Campy' can get mighty annoying when it's done on purpose though.

 

Here's a better representation the older version that I was referring to: http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/b/bibleman.htm

 

And how can I forget the super-cucumber... LARRYBOY!???

http://www.larryboy.com/

Hilarious stuff. Careful, though, there's Biblical messages in these.

[wagnern]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

That's a Marvel comic? Huh, and I never even heard of it.

 

As compared to all those Marvel comics I just *wish* I'd never heard of.

 

Was this made for a foreign market or something similar?

 

I dont think so, my copies are in english and have the comic code stuff on em and everything. It may have taken of in hispanic markets beter due to there large roman catholic populations.

[Egyptoid]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

7. It's a game. It's make believe. Villains aren't actually killing people. Gods aren't actually doing battle. Nothing of importance in the real world is being decided this particular afternoon at this particular gaming table. Lighten thy burden and thine mood.

 

If however someone is living out what they'd like to do in the game...

That's great if what you want to be is a hero or heroine, or Hermione.

 

If you just want to waste people to blow off steam,

or you want to live out some fantasy then you should watch out.

If you fill your head with garbage, it piles up in there.

 

But if you want to "prove a point" then you need help.

 

My point is there's a dozen psychologically bad things you

can do to yourself, or to your players in game.

 

Moderation and balance is the key.

Religion (ie what do you believe about things science cannot measure)

should be as small a part of the game as murder, sex, abortion, and any other harsh topics, because you should ask yourself, why am I inserting more of (this) into my game than any other topic?

[Dynamo]

Re: "Look, up in the sky! It's Super Saint!" Christian-themed heroes

 

I do not espouse any of the Abrahamic faiths. I find no Truth in them, but I do find tremendously powerful Story. Modern faiths are fabulous sources of epic elements for your RPG campaign, but you have to be sensitive to the beliefs of your players. I've known Christians and Jews to get upset at the depiction of their faiths at the hands of nonbelievers, and I have also seen Neopagans object to the depiction of Magic in superhero and sword & sorcery settings.

 

Luckily, I am blessed with a table of very open-minded players (2 Neopagans, 2 Bahá'í, 1 Agnostic), so I get a fairly free hand. Just as I contradict my own beliefs about Magic in my fantasy campaign with fireballs and wondrous healing, I contradict my beliefs about modern religions in my superhero campaign by assigning them at least a grain of Truth. In Cannibal Comics, Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Wiccans, Secular Humanists, Scientologists, Branch Davidians, Hare Krishnas, and all the rest each hold their piece of the puzzle.

 

So I've introduced a few Christian-themed individuals and groups on both sides of the fence as well as straddling it. Here are a couple faves:

 

The New Apostles

Enthusiastically derived from Bill Willingham's Rapture as featured in his Elementals title. These guys received their powers from and are backed by a radical-right Christian splinter cult led by a charismatic "miracle" worker. They engage in rescue operations and some crimefighting and are considered by many to be heroes. However, they are under investigation by the FBI and PRIMUS, who suspect them of attacks on abortion clinics, homosexuals, and non-Christian institutions.

 

Ordre de St Jean d'Arc

The Vatican's answer to UNTIL, PRIMUS, SHIELD and the like. Though trained with ultratech weaponry, most members are deployed unarmed in support of a team of supers, depending on local laws and treaty status. The Order draws its superteams from a fairly extensive cadre spread throughout the world according to availability and the needs of the mission (and story ). Becoming a senior super operative of the order involves extensive indoctrination and training; each is an ordained Bishop in his own right. Women are thus locked out of leadership roles. While there are warrior-nuns among the Order, they answer to male superiors who are in turn answerable only to the Order's senior leadership and the Vatican.