I think I broke Hero System.

[Tornado]

After an awful lot of work, I created a device that can add 3960 points to a power per day.

 

That's 792d6 for an energy blast per day; 264d6 for an KA per day; 1980" of a movement power; 1980 PD/1980 ED of a defense power, etc.

 

I realize that I will never get a chance to use this ability, because no GM on earth would allow you to take this power. However, I still made it, mostly for fun, and I wanted to check with you guys to see if I did everything right.

 

Here it is, along with a calculation of it's amount of aid:

 

Oroboros Power Supply:

1d6 Aid Other Power (+3 Points), Aid (+1d6), Simultaneously (+1/2), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Return Rate: 5 Minute (+1/2) (AP: 30), OIF Bulky (-1), Extra Time (1 Turn; -1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2), Set Effect (-0), Conditional Power: Not In Intense Magnetic Fields (-1/4), Activation 10- (-1 1/4), Independent (-2), Does Not Work In Darkness (-1/2), Does Not Work Half Of A Twenty-Four Hour Period (-1), Takes One Day To Initiate (-2): Real Cost: 3

 

5400 growth during functional period (5 [times to get it/minute] * 60 [minutes/hour] * 12 [hours/twelve hour period])/2 [50% chance to get it]

-1440 slow reduction (5 [amount lost/period] * 12 [number of periods/hour] * 24 [number of hours/twenty four hour period])

3960 points gained per twenty four hours activated

[Sean Waters]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Not sure it is broken....I'm assuming the 'simultaneously' goes to the maximum aid pool and the EB?

 

3 points adds to the maximum, 6 points, making 9 points maximum.

 

Next go it is 6 and 12, and so on...about right?

 

Not quite, I think...

 

The pool, even though you have not paid additional points for it, is still getting the +2 in advantages, so your 3 points of standard effect will have 1 point of actual effect.

 

3 and 7

6 and 8

9 and 9....and stuck.

[Trebuchet]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Congratulations, you've discovered Dragonball-Zâ„¢ Hero.

[Armitage]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

The biggest problem is that 1d6 Aid can only add 6 points. Period.

Being able to Aid a total of 3960 points would cost an extra 1977 Active Points. 1 Active Point per 2 points of increased maximum.

 

Edit: Beat me to it. So the Aid would be slowed considerably waiting for the maximum to increase.

 

And also, Not in Darkness and Only During Half of a 24 hour Period seems like double-dipping, like mental powers with No Range and Requires Skin Contact.

[prestidigitator]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Well yeah. I've done this one too. IIRC it pays off to buy up the Maximum Effect a bit to begin with. I'll have to rethink it or see if I can dig through old threads to find my build. You really don't need all the Limitations, by the way. They don't help you with the infinite recursion any.

[Tornado]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Not sure it is broken....I'm assuming the 'simultaneously' goes to the maximum aid pool and the EB?

 

3 points adds to the maximum, 6 points, making 9 points maximum.

 

Next go it is 6 and 12, and so on...about right?

 

Not quite, I think...

 

The pool, even though you have not paid additional points for it, is still getting the +2 in advantages, so your 3 points of standard effect will have 1 point of actual effect.

 

3 and 7

6 and 8

9 and 9....and stuck.

I think you need to explain this further. I am unclear exactly what you mean. Do you mean that one divides by the roll by (1+Advantages)? Do you mean that you just skip past the limitations to determine value per d6?

 

I'm not clear on this, and consulting my book does not really help.

And also' date=' Not in Darkness and Only During Half of a 24 hour Period seems like double-dipping, like mental powers with No Range and Requires Skin Contact.[/quote'] Eh, just throw in another -1/2 limitation for Not In Darkness.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

1D6 Aid can add 6 Active Points to a power. You're AID is 30 Active Points per 1D6, a total you can never reach.

 

Your first activation adds 6 Active Points to your AID. That's not enough to give it even 1 pip extra. Even if you allow that you can now add 7 Active Points maximum and are still stuck at +1 Pip to the AID.

 

See 5er p107.

 

edit: bad grammar

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Yep. Like most "broken" Aid builds, this isn't "broken"... it just doesn't work.

[gojira]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

This is why god invented GMs.

[Tornado]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Okay, I got it. Only this time, for real!

 

Summon: 15 Point Character: Molecular Anomoly (3 points)

Molecular Anomaly:

2d6 Aid, Summon and Other Power, Simultaneously (+1/2), Some -1 Limitation (-1), Standard Effect (-0). Real Cost: 15

 

Adds 6 Points to the summon, which adds 4d6, which adds 12 points to the summon, which adds 8d6, which adds 24 points to the summon, which adds 16d6, which adds 48 points to the summon, which adds 32d6, which adds 96 points to the summon, etc.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Now you understand why we have GMs, Common and Dramatic Sense and Respect For The Game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

You only need to AID the Summon, since you have to Resummon each use to get the bigger Molecular Anomoly.

 

Or AID the AID on the first Molecular Anomaly.

 

Either way, I know of no GM that would allow such a construct into the game. I'm glad you're happy you've "broken" the system - but Hero Games only "break" if the Players and GM ignore common sense.

 

Just because you Can does not mean you Should.

[Susano]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Congratulations' date=' you've discovered Dragonball-Zâ„¢ Hero. [/quote']

 

Naw, DBZ is just as case of a low-dice Aid with a large maximum number of points you can Aid.

 

Basically, this:

 

68 Super-Saiyajin Stage 1: Aid STR, DEX, CON, PD, ED, SPD, END, STUN, and Chi Powers 4d6, Can Add Maximum Of 30 Points, Delayed Return Rate (points fade at the rate of 5 Per 20 Minutes; +3/4), Variable Effect (+2); Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Visible (brilliant burst of yellowish flame surrounds the Saiyajin; -1/4)

[Tornado]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Can you do that? I thought that you couldn't apply the Cumulative advantage to Aid. Are you doing something else I'm missing, or what?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

I don't believe Cumulatuive can apply to any power that already has a mechanic for buying up maximum effect.

[archermoo]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

OMG!!! You can build broken power constructs with the Hero system?!?!?!? SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!!

 

I didn't realize that anyone who played Hero didn't know that you can build broken things. To paraphrase a favourite quote of mine "Of course you can do stupid things with Hero. If they stopped you from doing stupid things that would stop you from being able to do a lot of the clever things too."

[ghost-angel]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

OMG!!! You can build broken power constructs with the Hero system?!?!?!? SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!!

 

I didn't realize that anyone who played Hero didn't know that you can build broken things. To paraphrase a favourite quote of mine "Of course you can do stupid things with Hero. If they stopped you from doing stupid things that would stop you from being able to do a lot of the clever things too."

I like that quote.

[archermoo]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

I like that quote.

 

The original replaces "Hero" with "UNIX".

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Makes perfect sense.

[actingkeith]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

This sort of thing (when you figure out how to build it right) ends up just following the whole 'Rod of Tyrannon' syndrome.

 

It's not a big deal.

 

If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, look up the old Mystic Masters book.

 

I like the *NIX quote as well...

 

-k

[Vondy]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

I fail to see what you have broken.

[austenandrews]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

I thought the canon build of this was Xd6 Aid, 1/2 pts to Power Y and 1/2 pts to Aid.

[Susano]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

Can you do that? I thought that you couldn't apply the Cumulative advantage to Aid. Are you doing something else I'm missing' date=' or what?[/quote']

 

If you're talking about my power build, I didn't use the Cumulative Advantage. I simply upped the Maximum number of Active Points you can add. Thus, you can use the Aid and roll the 4d6 as many times as you'd like until your die rolls total 30.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

1d6 aid, aid pool and another power simultaneously (+1/2)

 

OK.

 

Assuming standard rolls, the 1d6 aid adds 3 points to the other power and 4 points to the pool, so it is infinitely recursive. (4 points becasue there is a +1/2 on the power, so aid AND pool costs have that advantage, so 3 points added mean 2 points after advantages, or 4 points to the pool.

 

To make it meaningful you need a bigger Aid and reduced fade rate, but work with me here. if you have a fade rate of 5 per 5 minutes (+1/2) then the pool has a +1 advantage so every 3 points added in fact increases the value by 1.5, or 3 points to the pool. It is still infinitely recursive BUT if you have more than +1 in advantages it won't be.

 

OK, so that is sily and sort of broken. Sort of because it might make an interesting villain. Maybe.

 

So we can build silly stuff (if you want really silly stiff, let us visit 0 range AoE autfire penetrating attacks with personal immunity).

 

OK, you got it: what you going to do with it?

 

I mean that 7000d6EB is going to cost you 700 END. Got 700END? No.

 

OK, you bought it 0 END. Fine.

 

It took you two days to be able to blow planets out of the sky. Why?

 

You want to vaporise villains? Nasty. Illegal. Fun? Probably not. Maybe once.

 

So, back to why?

 

Hero is not really breakable: it is a toolkit. You can build stupid things with it, as you can with many tools. Pointyman 2000 has a player who is constantly trying this sort of thing on. Fine. He gets enjoyment from the build, but probably not from the play, in practice.

 

So, where we need to go is this: the build mechanics are NOT the starting point. First you pick what you want to play, then you build it.

 

The fact that you can construct even hopelessly munchkinesque constructs is a tribute to how robust the system is, not how broken it is. Hero, unlike most game systems, vests trust in the users, and why not. If the users deliberately muck up the dynamics of their own games they'll be the ones to suffer.

 

So when people go through this phase, and we all do, I encourage it. I find that once people see how boring The Ultimate Character is in practice they look to more interesting characters who are flawed and not Ultimate and have to actually struggle a bit and rely on wits and a bit of luck to triumph.

 

It's character building

[Basil]

Re: I think I broke Hero System.

 

OK, I've rewritten the power a little, mostly to remove stuff that's beside the point I'm going to make, and a bit to make it clearer.

AID: 1d6 (3 Points: set effect), Any two powers simultaneously (+1/2), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Return Rate: 5 Minute (+1/2) (AP: 30), Extra Time (1 Turn; -1 1/4), Set Effect (-0), Activation 10- (-1 1/4), Does Not Work Half Of A Twenty-Four Hour Period (-1); Real Cost: 7

Now, keep in mind that Aid has no effect until it has aided enough to add a full die (or other incremment) to the power; further, that Aid increases the Active Cost of a power. Thus, for this power to Aid itself up another die it has to do 30 points of effect. At 3 points every Turn, it'll be 2 minutes before it gets a second die. IF, and this is very important, IF it make 10 consecutive 50% (10-) rolls!

 

To estimate an approximate length of time, act as if each "hit" increased by 1.5 points. 1.5*5=7.5 points per minute average; that's 4 minutes (estimated) to gain one die on the Aid. Note though that in another minute 5 points will be lost; if your rolls are only a bit below average you could easily have <35 points when those 5 points fade, meaning more than 5 minutes to gain the next die of Aid.

 

BTW, the Two Powers Simultaneously Advantage should take a Limitation because one of the Powers is required to be this Aid.

 

5400 growth during functional period (5 [times to get it/minute] * 60 [minutes/hour] * 12 [hours/twelve hour period])/2 [50% chance to get it]

-1440 slow reduction (5 [amount lost/period] * 12 [number of periods/hour] * 24 [number of hours/twenty four hour period])

3960 points gained per twenty four hours activated

Curiously, this make no attempt to account for the growing power of the Aid. Perhaps you should rewrite it without the Two Powers Simultaneously advantage?

 

And don't worry if some people have gotten torqued; I understand you're being humorous.