Is Hero too preditable?

[zornwil]

Re: What's the Topic Again?

 

It's not that min-maxing is the issue... as much as being railroaded into a ceratin format of play is not comfortable to me in RPGs. If I approach D&D as a minis game... then it can become fun, because it really is about just rolling dice and seeing what you can kill... and if you reach 20th level before being killed, you win! It is like playing Talisman or some continuing game of Magic or some such. Fun as a game, but not what I consider role playing... no matter what the GNS model says.

 

And yes, I do find games like DitV or Polaris to be quite similar to gamist cousins in their heavy mechanistic methods. I'm not sure that their emphasis on mechanics and min-maxing to drive the effect you want really tells a "story" in the way they insist.

 

That's really off topic... but maybe what I'm getting at in my sleep deprived ravings is that a heavily mechanistic approach to actual play where the reward system drives increasing mechanistic efficiency as the "way to win" seems to diminish any need for a real "role" to be played... making the game closer to Monopoly than "cooperative story telling." You don't normally say, "I'll play the part of the Shoe!" when you play Monopoly... you just choose your piece and follow the rules. When D&D reinforces, "Choose the piece that is most efficient at "killing" in order to gain more resources, so you can "kill" more efficiently... I just don't see much "role" in that playing.

I would generally agree, and FYI I was pretty much making an aside, not really a direct comment "at" you (just to be clear).

[zornwil]

Re: What's the Topic Again?

 

It's not that min-maxing is the issue... as much as being railroaded into a ceratin format of play is not comfortable to me in RPGs. If I approach D&D as a minis game... then it can become fun, because it really is about just rolling dice and seeing what you can kill... and if you reach 20th level before being killed, you win! It is like playing Talisman or some continuing game of Magic or some such. Fun as a game, but not what I consider role playing... no matter what the GNS model says.

 

And yes, I do find games like DitV or Polaris to be quite similar to gamist cousins in their heavy mechanistic methods. I'm not sure that their emphasis on mechanics and min-maxing to drive the effect you want really tells a "story" in the way they insist.

 

That's really off topic... but maybe what I'm getting at in my sleep deprived ravings is that a heavily mechanistic approach to actual play where the reward system drives increasing mechanistic efficiency as the "way to win" seems to diminish any need for a real "role" to be played... making the game closer to Monopoly than "cooperative story telling." You don't normally say, "I'll play the part of the Shoe!" when you play Monopoly... you just choose your piece and follow the rules. When D&D reinforces, "Choose the piece that is most efficient at "killing" in order to gain more resources, so you can "kill" more efficiently... I just don't see much "role" in that playing.

More on the topic of your note as I reread, I think D&D has been and remains popular more for what it inspires than what it delivers, and the "roleplaying" aspect is primarily encouraged from that inspiration.

[RDU Neil]

Re: What's the Topic Again?

 

More on the topic of your note as I reread' date=' I think D&D has been and remains popular more for what it inspires than what it delivers, and the "roleplaying" aspect is primarily encouraged from that inspiration.[/quote']

 

 

Beautifully put. What it "inspires" rather than what it "delivers." Those that find they like what it delievers find themselves enjoying a different kind of game than what they first might have been "inspired" by... and that's cool. Those of us who looked for something to fulfill that inspiration went and looked elsewhere.

[greymankle]

in all fairness

 

D&D' date=' by design, says, "You aren't supposed to figure out how to make a Druid work well, you are supposed to figure out that you aren't supposed to play a druid and instead play paladin/monk gestalt class who moves on to Nightsong Enforcer at 6th level... because then you are playing the game right!"[/quote']

 

OK I have to jump in late on this one. Sorry for the tardiness. When playing a true D&D campaiign, anything will work. Druids work well in the forest, rogues in the city etc. An open campaign will have that variance to let each class shine at different times.

 

But when churning through "The Worlds Largest Doungeon" you wont have that variance. So, as a GM, to let a player create a caharacter which doesn't jive with the game he is going to run, is irresponsible. This is no different than in Hero.

 

A GM says "I am going to run a Dimensional superhero game. A new dimension each week. "

 

Player says "I want to play a character really invovled in the community, with contacts and everybody knows him. But he has to maintian a Secret Identity"

 

GM explains why that doesn't work and they work out a compromise. Re-occuring NPCS in each dimension.

 

No different than what we did.

GM: I want to run the worlds largest Doungeon"

 

PLayer: I want to play a Druid Assassin. Who kills for nature.

 

GM: OK that's cool, but wont work well in this game. Not a lot of forests so 50% of your druid class will be worthless. What part of the Druid assassin do you like?

 

PLayer: I want to be a methondical killer that everyone is afraid of.

 

GM: OK cool, well you can be a methodical killer without taking assassin levels. Try paladin/monk. Similar concept but different class levels.

 

Player: Sweet, so I can be a mystical kung-fu killer. Sent on missions from my emporer?

 

GM: yup

 

SO then my 3rd ed. guru buddy and I, took the paladain/monk combo, and min/maxed the F*** out of it.

 

Don't compare the experience with the WLD, to 3rd ed. as a whole. The point of this campaign is to make powerful characters who might actually live. So, as a GM to make sure your character lived, and wasn't out shone by other players, I had to help you along. Not too much fun if your methodical killer keeps dying, or watching the un-couth barbarian fight better then you.

 

Any other campaign and a Druid worlks fine. Heck even bards can work in the right campaign.